"Separation Issues" With the RTi12's...

kuntasensei · March 2010

comfortablycurt wrote: »

I have no problems resolving the full detail of 1080p on the screen sitting 11' away. If I'm missing out on that last little .000000000000000000000000000000001% of performance...oh well. What would be the maximum recommended distance from a 42" screen? Like 5.75' or something? That sounds obscenely close to the screen to me. I guess I'd rather try and preserve my eye sight than be able to see someones nose hair THAT much better.

What happened to the "don't sit so close to the screen" rule?:rolleyes:

From a 42" screen, 5.5' would be the distance to fully resolve 1080p with 20/20 vision. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that you should be that close... and few people would. You have to balance that against the maximum viewing distance to resolve SDTV, which would be 14.6' for a 42" screen. The point is that if you're sitting 11' back, you aren't really getting the full advantage of 1080p resolution, though it will definitely look better than SDTV. For a good example, AVSForum's HD 709 calibration disc has a pattern that has single pixels in an alternating grid. If you aren't at a good viewing distance, this pattern will simply look gray, whereas if you're at a good distance, you should be able to see that it's a grid of single pixels. If you don't, then it means you aren't seeing every fine detail in the picture. But then, who really needs to see every pore in someone's face, right?

(Well... I do... but I'm 10' back from a 100" screen and LOVE IT!)

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

I understand this, but I absolutely have to take into consideration the aesthetic situation here -- I, and my wife (although this statement now has nothing to do with any decision she has made) absolutely HATED the way my R20's on their stands looked toed-in in our last place; it gave the space a "dorm room" look, and that's not what we're going for here with the 12's. I can experiment with some toe-in, but it cannot be excessively canted towards the listening area.

I think you're overestimating how much toe-in you're going to have to do. It really won't be that much. What you want to do is visualize a 45 degree cone of sound coming from the tweeter and aim that cone so that this cone of sound covers the entire listening position fairly equally. A good way to do this is to draw a 45 degree angle on a piece of paper and put it on top of your speaker, then toe it in while looking over the back of the speaker toward the seats. So long as your entire listening area, left to right, is within that cone, you're good. You don't necessarily want to point the center axis of the speaker directly at the center listening position. The method I described above should give you a good guideline that will help cover your entire listening area and minimize sidewall reflections.

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

You have said repeatedly that my measurements look "absolutely fine" from your standpoint, but what about the fact that I won't really be running a true equilateral triangle arrangement? That is, the distance from my listening position to the screen is 11 or so feet...the distance between the left and right RTi12 mains is less than that...around 9 or so feet...what do you make of that?

The triangle rule is just a general guideline, not a strict placement. Per Dolby, the angle from your center seat to each main speaker should be 22-30 degrees if you're sitting 8-12' from the screen. Again, a good way to judge this is to draw a 60 degree angle on a piece of paper, sit at the main listening position looking over this paper toward the front soundstage, and if your mains are within that cone, your room should accurately reflect the placement of sound that the mixer intended. From the distances you provided, your mains seem to be pretty optimally placed per Dolby specs. See http://www.dolby.com/consumer/setup/speaker-setup-guide/index.html .

Someone quote that. I'd hate to be dropping knowledge without him seeing it.

kuntasensei · March 2010

domflane wrote: »

this is the most annoying thread i've ever read. We're wasting a lot of time giving someone advice who's gear is still in the boxes and refuses to take advice from some very knowledgeable forum members. I'm not even sure where this is all going because it sounds like everything is already purchased and unless you plan on returning things, you're going to have to live with whatever you have. A slightly improper rig is better than no rig mike, the speakers will not spontaneously combust from being too far apart, i assure you.
Mike, listen to your speakers and after you have, if you have any real concerns or questions, we will be happy to help you. Untill then, chill out and start opening boxes. All the time you're spending on this thread would be way better spent listening to your flagship rti's. I just don't understand how you let something like that sit silent . . .
No hard feelings pal, just give your rig a try, you will be surprised.

Dominic

+1,000,000.

concealer404 · March 2010

AAAAAARRRRRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggggggggg............

concealer404 · March 2010

kuntasensei wrote: »

From a 42" screen, 5.5' would be the distance to fully resolve 1080p with 20/20 vision. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that you should be that close... and few people would. You have to balance that against the maximum viewing distance to resolve SDTV, which would be 14.6' for a 42" screen. The point is that if you're sitting 11' back, you aren't really getting the full advantage of 1080p resolution, though it will definitely look better than SDTV. For a good example, AVSForum's HD 709 calibration disc has a pattern that has single pixels in an alternating grid. If you aren't at a good viewing distance, this pattern will simply look gray, whereas if you're at a good distance, you should be able to see that it's a grid of single pixels. If you don't, then it means you aren't seeing every fine detail in the picture. But then, who really needs to see every pore in someone's face, right? (Well... I do... but I'm 10' back from a 100" screen and LOVE IT!)

I think you're overestimating how much toe-in you're going to have to do. It really won't be that much. What you want to do is visualize a 45 degree cone of sound coming from the tweeter and aim that cone so that this cone of sound covers the entire listening position fairly equally. A good way to do this is to draw a 45 degree angle on a piece of paper and put it on top of your speaker, then toe it in while looking over the back of the speaker toward the seats. So long as your entire listening area, left to right, is within that cone, you're good. You don't necessarily want to point the center axis of the speaker directly at the center listening position. The method I described above should give you a good guideline that will help cover your entire listening area and minimize sidewall reflections.

The triangle rule is just a general guideline, not a strict placement. Per Dolby, the angle from your center seat to each main speaker should be 22-30 degrees if you're sitting 8-12' from the screen. Again, a good way to judge this is to draw a 60 degree angle on a piece of paper, sit at the main listening position looking over this paper toward the front soundstage, and if your mains are within that cone, your room should accurately reflect the placement of sound that the mixer intended. From the distances you provided, your mains seem to be pretty optimally placed per Dolby specs. See http://www.dolby.com/consumer/setup/speaker-setup-guide/index.html .

Someone quote that. I'd hate to be dropping knowledge without him seeing it.

Quoted.

This is interesting. I'm quoting someone who is on someone's ignore list, when that second someone is on mine. Super.

Snowdogyyz · March 2010

kuntasensei wrote: »

+1,000,000.

+1,000,001.

This isn't life or death (I've seen people worry less about an illness)... it's home theater and it's supposed to be fun, not a constant worry. Hook the stuff up already and see how it sounds!

comfortablycurt · March 2010

domflane wrote: »

This is the most annoying thread I've ever read. We're wasting a lot of time giving someone advice who's gear is still in the boxes and refuses to take advice from some very knowledgeable forum members. I'm not even sure where this is all going because it sounds like everything is already purchased and unless you plan on returning things, you're going to have to live with whatever you have. A slightly improper rig is better than no rig Mike, the speakers will not spontaneously combust from being too far apart, I assure you.
Mike, listen to your speakers and after you have, if you have any real concerns or questions, we will be happy to help you. Untill then, chill out and start opening boxes. All the time you're spending on this thread would be way better spent listening to your flagship RTi's. I just don't understand how you let something like that sit silent . . .
No hard feelings pal, just give your rig a try, you will be surprised.

Dominic

No offense Mike, as I'm trying to help you, and truly hope you enjoy your rig.:)

But...^^^...That's what I'm sayin'. You've got all these concerns about how your rigs going to sound...whether it's going to sound uneven, incoherent etc...But the gear you're worried about is sitting right there waiting to be hooked up. You aren't truly going to know the answers to any of your questions until you have it hooked up and playing.

I understand you're moving into a new house and all though, so you've probably been pretty busy lately.

If you really can't set your gear up until you get the other piece of this cabinet though...I'd suggest you just alleviate all of these worries until you can get it all put together. As myself, and others, have said...we can discuss theory all day long, but in the end, that's all it is. Theory. With this hobby, there's no substitute for actual first hand experience. That's something I've really come to understand more lately.

You can read all the reviews in the world, get every bit of advice you can dig up...and you'll still be completely surprised by how something sounds. The point is, you can't really rely on reviews for this. Everyone has different criteria when it comes to evaluating and describing audio gear. Different people use different terms to describe certain tonal qualities(bright, warm, natural, mellow, etc.), just for starters. Not to mention that everyone's ears may work a bit differently...and of course, everyone's specific gear and specific room impacts it all to great extents. System synergy is one of the most important aspects of building any kind of audio rig. The way your components interact with one another determines the overall sound of your rig.

So far, you've selected some great pieces IMO. The Onkyo 605 is a great entry level receiver. I've got a 606 myself, and I love it. Yes, the 605/6 has it's shortcomings, but it's a great receiver none the less. As I've mentioned before, I used to run a CSi5/RTi8 front sound stage, with RTi6 surrounds. The synergy between the Onkyo and the RTi's was excellent. The two complement each other quite nicely. The RTi's are somewhat bright sounding by their nature, and the Onkyo's are more or less on the neutral side of things, and can be a touch on the warm side at times. The two of them mixed together created a very balanced overall "system tone". It had plenty of mid-range warmth, but when needed, was still able to provide that brighter tone that many prefer for HT.

I may have missed it in a previous post...but what are you using as a source?

comfortablycurt · March 2010

kuntasensei wrote: »

From a 42" screen, 5.5' would be the distance to fully resolve 1080p with 20/20 vision. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that you should be that close... and few people would. You have to balance that against the maximum viewing distance to resolve SDTV, which would be 14.6' for a 42" screen. The point is that if you're sitting 11' back, you aren't really getting the full advantage of 1080p resolution, though it will definitely look better than SDTV. For a good example, AVSForum's HD 709 calibration disc has a pattern that has single pixels in an alternating grid. If you aren't at a good viewing distance, this pattern will simply look gray, whereas if you're at a good distance, you should be able to see that it's a grid of single pixels. If you don't, then it means you aren't seeing every fine detail in the picture. But then, who really needs to see every pore in someone's face, right? (Well... I do... but I'm 10' back from a 100" screen and LOVE IT!)

5.5'?! Wow...I just went in my living room and measured out 5.5' from my TV screen...and I couldn't even imagine sitting that close to the TV!! Videophiles are crazy!!...lol

Oh well...I'm glad I'm not a videophile. That means I can save all that "big screen money" and put it towards some sweet 2 channel gear.;) I'm going to eventually upgrade to a 40-42" plasma/lcd eventually...something with 1080p, but basically just half a notch or so above entry level. That'll probably be the last TV I ever buy too...lol...unless it breaks someday.

I think you're overestimating how much toe-in you're going to have to do. It really won't be that much. What you want to do is visualize a 45 degree cone of sound coming from the tweeter and aim that cone so that this cone of sound covers the entire listening position fairly equally. A good way to do this is to draw a 45 degree angle on a piece of paper and put it on top of your speaker, then toe it in while looking over the back of the speaker toward the seats. So long as your entire listening area, left to right, is within that cone, you're good. You don't necessarily want to point the center axis of the speaker directly at the center listening position. The method I described above should give you a good guideline that will help cover your entire listening area and minimize sidewall reflections.

Exactly...the speakers don't need to be aimed directly at the center of your head. They probably only really need to be toed in an inch or two at those distances...maybe not even that much.

The triangle rule is just a general guideline, not a strict placement. Per Dolby, the angle from your center seat to each main speaker should be 22-30 degrees if you're sitting 8-12' from the screen. Again, a good way to judge this is to draw a 60 degree angle on a piece of paper, sit at the main listening position looking over this paper toward the front soundstage, and if your mains are within that cone, your room should accurately reflect the placement of sound that the mixer intended. From the distances you provided, your mains seem to be pretty optimally placed per Dolby specs. See http://www.dolby.com/consumer/setup/speaker-setup-guide/index.html .

Someone quote that. I'd hate to be dropping knowledge without him seeing it.

Quoted again...just for good measure.;)

BeefJerky · March 2010

comfortablycurt wrote: »

5.5'?! Wow...I just went in my living room and measured out 5.5' from my TV screen...and I couldn't even imagine sitting that close to the TV!! Videophiles are crazy!!...lol

I sit between 4.5-7.0 feet back from my 52" Samsung LCD and honestly can't imagine sitting farther back than that. I'm on the closer side when using it as my computer monitor, and on the farther side when watching TV or movies. I don't think I'm a videophile per se, but I do like to have my field of view covered well. By covering my field of view, it helps block out distractions and allows me to get into the movie more.

kuntasensei · March 2010

comfortablycurt wrote: »

5.5'?! Wow...I just went in my living room and measured out 5.5' from my TV screen...and I couldn't even imagine sitting that close to the TV!! Videophiles are crazy!!...lol

Oh well...I'm glad I'm not a videophile. That means I can save all that "big screen money" and put it towards some sweet 2 channel gear.;) I'm going to eventually upgrade to a 40-42" plasma/lcd eventually...something with 1080p, but basically just half a notch or so above entry level. That'll probably be the last TV I ever buy too...lol...unless it breaks someday.

I don't know that I'm a videophile necessarily, though I do have a ton of calibration discs and a colorimeter to set my gear to 6500k. Okay... having typed that, maybe I'm a bit of a videophile. But in fairness, I've spent more on the audio side than the video.

Personally, with a 42" 1080p set, I wouldn't want to be beyond 8' away. To me, any further and you might as well have a 720p set instead, because you're no longer getting the advantage of the increased resolution. You're also not filling the proper amount of your vision to prevent eyestrain in a darkened room (which is why backlighting a set or bias lighting the room is so important). But then, I'll never understand why people spend $1,200 on a 50" set when that price range puts you in reach of a 1080p projector with a reasonably large screen. Maybe I'm just crazy though.

cnh · March 2010

I wonder is Mike has hooked up anything yet. The good Samaratin awards go to Curt and Kuntasensei for this 'thread'.

I have a 46" and sit about 9 feet more or less from it (maybe 8.5')...would be uncomfortable less than 8 feet from that screen!

cnh

kuntasensei · March 2010

You say that now, cnh... but once you have a big screen, your mind changes. I had an ISF-calibrated 42" 1080i RPTV in my room before the projector, and I set things up so the projector screen drops down in front of that RPTV. The intention was to use the RPTV for general TV watching and the projector for movies and games. But... once I got the 92" screen and 720p projector in, the RPTV gathered dust so I moved it to another room and put an equipment stand in its place. I ended up watching everything on the projector. Since then, I've stepped up to a 100" screen and 1080p projector, which now has over 5,000 hours on it in about 2.5 years of use.

Conradicles · March 2010

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

I don't have access to my camera

Why??? Find it and we can help.:)

cnh · March 2010

kuntasensei wrote: »

You say that now, cnh... but once you have a big screen, your mind changes. I had an ISF-calibrated 42" 1080i RPTV in my room before the projector, and I set things up so the projector screen drops down in front of that RPTV. The intention was to use the RPTV for general TV watching and the projector for movies and games. But... once I got the 92" screen and 720p projector in, the RPTV gathered dust so I moved it to another room and put an equipment stand in its place. I ended up watching everything on the projector. Since then, I've stepped up to a 100" screen and 1080p projector, which now has over 5,000 hours on it in about 2.5 years of use.

I don't disagree with that...just talking about my set up. Sure I wouldn't mind a huge projection screen. A friend of a friend does High End HT installations and I've been to his 100k showroom...it's in his house! Hell of a system. I think his screen though was short of yours..a bit under 100 inches!

cnh

Mike LoManaco · March 2010

comfortablycurt wrote: »

I can see your point, but I've seen people on here getting ready to spend vastly higher amounts of money on a pair of speakers, and not been half as worried about it as you are. I'm just saying...

Well, that may be, Curt, but that doesn't mean that my purchase means any less to me or that I shouldn't be extremely, overly concerned because I paid "only" near $1K for my speakers -- it's like the theory of the guy who buys the Corolla not having a "right" to want to detail it each weekend nor be overtly paranoid about dings and scratches. To him, his $20,000 Corolla was a massive investment (most likely); does that mean that he doesn't have a right to ask sixty thousand questions about the car because he's concerned about something?

I don't think the "money" angle is relevant here, and as much as you thought my Obama comment was inappropriate (which I'll get to) I don't think your "money" comment was any more appropriate.

Regardless of how it may appear...3.5 feet is 3.5 feet. No matter what it looks like. You'll be absolutely fine with them that far away.

I understand. I was just saying and reiterating that this is the reason why I feel that they may be too far apart -- the visualization is telling me that the entire front stage will be completely out of bounds and unrealistic.

I have to triple-check those measurements again.

Your thoughts here are different than the thoughts of anyone else that I've ever read on this topic. The point of surround sound is to provide lots of depth and width. The point of having the left and right and surround channels is to steer the sound away from being directly on screen. If we didn't want to steer the sound away from being directly on screen, we'd all only be using center channels.

You are misunderstanding me somewhere here; I understand and accept that a wide stage is absolutely vital and sought after -- but TOO WIDE a front stage (and you can research this phenomenon online) can also be damaging to the left-center-right alignment and action movement. I have SEEN and HEARD it happen on other systems; when a person's main channels are way too far apart, the onscreen motion is not seamless nor does it make directional sense in some moments. You continue arguing this whole "the soundstage SHOULD be wide!" angle, but I am not debating that -- I am saying that I was concerned that MY front stage was WAY too wide apart.

Again, 3 feet is 3 feet...no matter if it "looks like more" or not. 3 feet is just fine for the spacing between the speakers and TV screen. Without a doubt in my(or anyone else who's replied) mind.

It's more like 3 1/2 feet (if this makes any difference) but something is telling me to check this again, which I will.

Not at all. By having the speakers to close to the screen, you're making the sequence less accurate. As I stated above, the point of having surround sound is to have that width. Obviously, you don't want them 30 feet apart when you're sitting ten feet away, but width is in NO WAY a bad thing when it comes to a HT system.

If you want to feel you're right here, by all means do so; again, there is some misunderstanding. I am not saying that by having them SMACK UP AGAINST the screen is the more accurate method, nor that the sequence would appear more accurate in terms of the screen spread -- but I am telling you that having those front channels too far apart is absolutely, 100 percent going to destroy the L/C/R realism and transition. You're saying that width is is NO WAY a bad thing when it comes to HT, but this is simply not correct on different levels...width CAN be a VERY bad thing when the main channels are spread too far, and it seems as though you are continuing to hold to the fact that you believe that NO distance is "too far" in terms of spread. This simply isn't so, and that's all I am saying. Sure, having them too close is a poor choice also, but my concern, from the VERY BEGINNING of this thread, was with regard to whether or not my RTi12's were too far away from the display as to take me out of a sequence...one that's traveling into the mains to simulate the onscreen movement.

That's not at all what I was suggesting, I was just reiterating the point, because that is going to make a tremendous difference in the overall sound of your system.

Okay, well, I am not "accusing you" of any "bad deeds" here, I just wanted to know if you were suggesting or agreeing that having the grilles of the speakers (or baffles) right up to the edge of the supporting wall (or wall unit in my case) would be of benefit...

Understood. Fortunately, I don't have a wife to deal with.;)

Well, this is a huge factor, to many or most of us.

Obviously, you've got to work within your own means, but I would very strongly suggest trying to toe them in if you can. You're worried about the speakers being too far apart, and toe in is what you use to compensate for that. You're saying that with the speakers too far apart, the soundstage will seem too wide. Toeing the speakers in, lets you place them farther apart, while still having a tighter more focused soundstage. Toe in can also add a lot of front to back depth in your front soundstage, as well as helping them to mesh better with your center channel.

I understand this, and will consider and/or execute the tip(s). Thank you.

I know you've got to work with what you've got, but there's got to be some kind of compromise that you can make. Even as little as half an inch to an inch of toe in can make a drastic difference in the sound.

I shall indeed try.

Also...are you planning on having them flush up against the sides of the cabinet(with no breathing room between the speakers and the cabinet)? Again, I realize you've got to work within your means...but having a few inches of breathing room between the cabinets and the speakers will make a big difference in how they sound. Not to say that they'll necessarily sound bad if they're flush with the cabinets...but rather that they'll sound better with a little more air space.

Well, the initial plan was to have them right up against the cabinet, yes, but the way the 12's sit on their spiked feet and the way this wall unit bulges out a bit at the end cabinets, it looks like there WILL be breathing room between them.

The equilateral triangle is simply a standard recommendation. It isn't an absolute necessity. The fact that their a little closer together may actually work to your benefit in this situation. As you've said, you want to avoid toeing them in. Having them closer together like that, means that you'll need less toe in.

Understood. I just wanted to report my measurements, which were nine or so feet between the front left and front right, in comparison to the distance from the screen to the sweet spot, which was 11 or so feet.

As I said above, toeing them in helps to compensate for having them spread farther apart. Taking that knowledge, having them closer together means that generally you wouldn't need to toe them in as much.

Gotcha.

Will it be absolutely ideal? No...but very few of our listening areas are ideal. With Audyssey room correction and all that, the less than ideal spacing and placement is made much less obvious, and really helps to correct various room issues.

Understood, although I won't be running my 605's Audyssey; I prefer manual adjustments.

Exactly...I was just stating that it wasn't true in my case. Personally, I don't really picture myself ever wanting anything bigger than a 46"-50" TV...and not in either of my current rooms.

It just seemed to me that you seem to think most screens are "too big," and my point was that most of us guys don't.

But...I'm far from a videophile. I haven't watched a movie in about two months, and my TV has probably been on for a total of about 2 hours in the last few weeks or so.

Well, now THAT'S a major factor right there -- I need to be a bit obssessed about this because part of it is my bread 'n butter, aside from being a diehard hobby.

Hell...I probably won't even have a Blu-ray player for a few more years. I'm probably going to upgrade the TV in my 2 channel area this year...but that's not even really due to wanting a nicer TV...I'm just tired of this big hulking block of a CRT TV destroying the stereo image in my 2 channel rig.

:eek::eek::eek:

Not meant sarcastically at all. But, once again, I don't have a wife to deal with. The look of wires running behind my rig doesn't bother me in the slightest bit. I really do kind of like the look of it. It makes things look more impressive(i.e. "damn! those are some thick **** wires!!" kinda comments from friends etc.)

Okay; well, I suppose all I could say to this is, to each his own.

I wasn't downing your opinion or suggestion at all...so if you took it that way...Well...I don't know how/why you took it that way.;)

How I got to that was that you immediately commented with "I happen to like the look of snaky cables all over my rig..." RIGHT AFTER I commented to him about cleaning up his array of wires.

Mike LoManaco · March 2010

MY REPLY TO 'CURT, CONTINUED...

Exactly...I've never understood these recommendations. Going by most of the articles I've read on the subject...the ideal TV size for my downstairs living room would like a 62" or something like that. I couldn't even imagine having a TV that large in here. It would be ridiculously huge, and would make my head tired from having to turn it constantly to see all of the screen.

I agree. I mean, we were previously sitting 8 feet from this 50" RPTV and it was really huge in front of us; to say that you need to be like 5 or so feet from a screen to resolve and enjoy HD material does not seem logical or even practical to me.

Mike LoManaco · March 2010

comfortablycurt wrote: »

Ok...well that statement was kind of inappropriate, and I strongly disagree with it...but this is neither the time or the place for taking political jabs at someone...especially when it's completely irrelevant to any topic in the thread. You'd probably do best to avoid saying things like that on here in the future. Just a polite suggestion.

I'm not taking political "jabs" at anyone; I am merely making an analogy in this situation based on how I feel about what is happening to this country and very close family members who have been hit very hard by the decisions that have been made by this current cabinet and who have lost jobs and are nearly starving to death. YOU may disagree with that statement I made, but I surely DO NOT, and I am STANDING BY THAT. I don't think it was inappropriate at all; I was merely comparing the quality of my cell camera to the quality of "promises" that have been made my the current leader of the most powerful nation on Earth -- and I have the right to do that.

What makes me say it will sound fantastic? The fact that I've heard(and owned) nearly identical setups. They all sounded fantastic. Once again, the dimensions you gave are fine. I can understand you're just wanting to make sure you can get the most out of it, but like I said above...

"I can see your point, but I've seen people on here getting ready to spend vastly higher amounts of money on a pair of speakers, and not been half as worried about it as you are. I'm just saying..."

Again...I see what you're saying, but I DO NOT think this has ANYTHING to do with MONEY.

It almost seems to me as if you want your system to sound terrible. You're having so many doubts about how it's going to sound, that you're basically psyching yourself up into making yourself think that it will sound terrible. Seriously...your setup is going to sound absolutely fantastic. It's less than ideal, but nearly all of our setups are. My 2 channel rig isn't in an absolutely acoustically ideal area, but it provides me with an absolutely incredible stereo image, stellar bass response, unbelievable midrange, and hours upon hours of indescribable enjoyment.

No. NOT true. I am NOT trying to talk myself into my system sounding terrible. I just haven't had any time to really wire anything up yet -- I am at my computer for my freelance employment mostly all day, so that's why I am able to contribute to the forum as I do (in answer to Dominic's comment about this).

Add to that the fact that I got some bad news today that the other part of the wall unit cabinet won't come until the end of this month, and I am seriously thinking of setting everything up outside of this cabinet already.

Quit worrying so much...this rig you're putting together is going to sound fantastic. Seriously.

Go hook them up. Now. Seriously.;)

On a side note...that's the first time I've ever hit a character limit for a post on here...lol I didn't even realize that there was a 10,000 character limit in posts on here.

Thank you. No hard feelings here; I thank you for all your input and suggestions through all of this.

LOL -- yeah, the site has a limit for posting in a single post, no matter if it's a reply or an original thread start...it's really weird and annoying.

Mike LoManaco · March 2010

Conradicles wrote: »

Why??? Find it and we can help.:)

MORE THAN HALF of our personal belongings are still packed or are in storage.

Mike LoManaco · March 2010

comfortablycurt wrote: »

No offense Mike, as I'm trying to help you, and truly hope you enjoy your rig.:)

No offense taken. I'm replying in kind.

I understand you're moving into a new house and all though, so you've probably been pretty busy lately.

YES!

If you really can't set your gear up until you get the other piece of this cabinet though...I'd suggest you just alleviate all of these worries until you can get it all put together. As myself, and others, have said...we can discuss theory all day long, but in the end, that's all it is. Theory. With this hobby, there's no substitute for actual first hand experience. That's something I've really come to understand more lately.

I will take this into consideration. Let's put this discussion on hold until I can get the other cabinet, then, and perhaps we can go from there.

So far, you've selected some great pieces IMO. The Onkyo 605 is a great entry level receiver. I've got a 606 myself, and I love it. Yes, the 605/6 has it's shortcomings, but it's a great receiver none the less. As I've mentioned before, I used to run a CSi5/RTi8 front sound stage, with RTi6 surrounds. The synergy between the Onkyo and the RTi's was excellent. The two complement each other quite nicely. The RTi's are somewhat bright sounding by their nature, and the Onkyo's are more or less on the neutral side of things, and can be a touch on the warm side at times. The two of them mixed together created a very balanced overall "system tone". It had plenty of mid-range warmth, but when needed, was still able to provide that brighter tone that many prefer for HT.

I've said this before, and I will say this again...I believe the "600" series Onkyo AVR's are BETTER than "entry level." I believe this moniker should be reserved for the 500, or under, series, especially since it seems as though this company launches a receiver a week, most now way under that price point of the 600's.

I may have missed it in a previous post...but what are you using as a source?

Video source? An OPPO BDP-83, connected via HDMI only.

domflane · March 2010

Wow . . that's all I can say. Good luck with you're system Mike, although I don't think you'll ever be happy. I'm curious though, so let us know when you finally hook everything up and report what you find.

As far as this . .

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

I'm not taking political "jabs" at anyone; I am merely making an analogy in this situation based on how I feel about what is happening to this country and very close family members who have been hit very hard by the decisions that have been made by this current cabinet and who have lost jobs and are nearly starving to death. YOU may disagree with that statement I made, but I surely DO NOT, and I am STANDING BY THAT. I don't think it was inappropriate at all; I was merely comparing the quality of my cell camera to the quality of "promises" that have been made my the current leader of the most powerful nation on Earth -- and I have the right to do that.

Not on this forum pal, check the rules.

kuntasensei · March 2010

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

Understood, although I won't be running my 605's Audyssey; I prefer manual adjustments.

Well, that's fine, so long as you know that Audyssey makes hundreds of adjustments that you can't, and that with your in-ceiling surrounds (which are typically a no-no) it would be invaluable to getting you decent sound.

And with that, I give up. No offense intended, but I'm dumbfounded how someone who supposedly makes their living at this stuff seems to know absolutely nothing about it, and then wants to argue with the countless people over 6 threads who have not only given him excellent advice but links to the actual guidelines that dictate same.

We've told you how to set up your subwoofer. We've told you the best crossovers to start with. We've told you the problems you'll have with your desired placement. We've told you why you need to toe your speakers in. We've told you that the angle of your mains seems fine and provided a link to Dolby's prescribed placement (which is not up for any "soundstage might be too wide" debate - they're the angles you should use to match the soundfield the mixer intended). Listen to the advice given, unpack your gear, set it all up per the advice given, and enjoy!

Good luck on your new system and your new house, Mike. I'm sure it's eventually going to sound quite nice.

Menasor · March 2010

kuntasensei wrote: »

Well, that's fine, so long as you know that Audyssey makes hundreds of adjustments that you can't, and that with your in-ceiling surrounds (which are typically a no-no) it would be invaluable to getting you decent sound.

And with that, I give up. No offense intended, but I'm dumbfounded how someone who supposedly makes their living at this stuff seems to know absolutely nothing about it, and then wants to argue with the countless people over 6 threads who have not only given him excellent advice but links to the actual guidelines that dictate same.

We've told you how to set up your subwoofer. We've told you the best crossovers to start with. We've told you the problems you'll have with your desired placement. We've told you why you need to toe your speakers in. We've told you that the angle of your mains seems fine and provided a link to Dolby's prescribed placement (which is not up for any "soundstage might be too wide" debate - they're the angles you should use to match the soundfield the mixer intended). Listen to the advice given, unpack your gear, set it all up per the advice given, and enjoy!

Good luck on your new system and your new house, Mike. I'm sure it's eventually going to sound quite nice.

I gotta reiterate what kunta has said about Audyssey. IMO, it's absolutely necessary for movies, where an accurate sound field is very important for full immersion. After I ran Audyssey MultEQ XT on my system, it was a night and day difference. It's so good that it would mask a lot of deficiencies in your setup (bad room acoustics, bad speaking placement, in-ceiling surrounds, etc). I really recommend taking advantage of Audyssey.

For music, I go with Pure Audio and I rely on my front L/R placement (along with a port plug or two) to tune my sound. This is because Audyssey has some high end rolloff that's there because movies are mixed for large rooms/theaters. The treble rolloff is there to ensure that movies sound right in a room living room. While this is good for movies, music doesn't need this rolloff, and it takes a bit of life out of the sound.

My two cents

broncsrule21@ · March 2010

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

LOL -- yeah, the site has a limit for posting in a single post, no matter if it's a reply or an original thread start...it's really weird and annoying.

Talk about weird and annoying:rolleyes::rolleyes:

rcrook317 · March 2010

jesus .........im done looking at this thread.....

tonyb · March 2010

Wow,3 pages of advice for a system not set up yet. Must be a new record.

Hopefully Mike knows by now only so much you can do untill it's all hooked up and rockin' out. Pics would be nice, they tell the whole story in one easy post. Congrats on the new toys Mike, let us know how they sound.

kuntasensei · March 2010

tonyb wrote: »

Wow,3 pages of advice for a system not set up yet. Must be a new record.

3 pages in THIS thread. There were 5 threads before this. Seriously. We not only beat a dead horse, we fertilized the ground with its remains, grass grew, it turned to hay, we fed a new horse with it, it died, and we beat that dead horse too.

But I ain't mad at Mike. I know it's easy to get overly excited about all this stuff, but at a certain point, you just have to throw theory out the window and give it a listen.

ken brydson · March 2010

kuntasensei wrote: »

3 pages in THIS thread. There were 5 threads before this. Seriously. We not only beat a dead horse, we fertilized the ground with its remains, grass grew, it turned to hay, we fed a new horse with it, it died, and we beat that dead horse too.

I don't care who you are...that is funny right there!!:D

Todd Lee · March 2010

I get the feeling that Mike never even bought the speakers in the first place.

comfortablycurt · March 2010

domflane wrote: »

Not on this forum pal, check the rules.

Exactly. You do have every right to express your political beliefs, but not when it's against the rules that were set in place for this private forum that is owned by Polk Audio. Politics has no place on the polkaudio.com message boards.

kuntasensei wrote: »

3 pages in THIS thread. There were 5 threads before this. Seriously. We not only beat a dead horse, we fertilized the ground with its remains, grass grew, it turned to hay, we fed a new horse with it, it died, and we beat that dead horse too.

That right there was freakin hilarious!!!

BeefJerky · March 2010

Menasor wrote: »

I gotta reiterate what kunta has said about Audyssey. IMO, it's absolutely necessary for movies, where an accurate sound field is very important for full immersion. After I ran Audyssey MultEQ XT on my system, it was a night and day difference. It's so good that it would mask a lot of deficiencies in your setup (bad room acoustics, bad speaking placement, in-ceiling surrounds, etc). I really recommend taking advantage of Audyssey.

For music, I go with Pure Audio and I rely on my front L/R placement (along with a port plug or two) to tune my sound. This is because Audyssey has some high end rolloff that's there because movies are mixed for large rooms/theaters. The treble rolloff is there to ensure that movies sound right in a room living room. While this is good for movies, music doesn't need this rolloff, and it takes a bit of life out of the sound.

You're correct about the treble rolloff on Audyssey being the default. However, on the Audyssey MultiEQ on my Denon AVR-788 I can turn the treble rolloff on or off. Honestly, I prefer it off even for movies. You are definitely correct about Audyssey making a huge difference though, especially when placement and room acoustics aren't optimal.

comfortablycurt · March 2010

And another +1 for using Audyssey, Mike.

It does a lot more than just set distances and levels.

I always adjust crossover frequencies to my tastes, and adjust levels as I see fit...but I've almost always run my AVR with Audyssey on. It sounds fantastic.

"Separation Issues" With the RTi12's...

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