I'm clipping.

Systems · April 2009

OK its 50 ohms not 50k, that's more like it.It would be nice to see a full impedance graph to see whats happening elsewhere.

ben62670 · April 2009

50 Ohms isn't that high. Some of the vintage Polk reach that their FS frequency;)

Systems · April 2009

I think the difference with this ESL is that it is 50 ohms over a broad range of frequencies,not just a peak at resonance like in a sealed box speaker.

reeltrouble1 · April 2009

yes guys for mine 50-100 ohms, rich noted his at 143 I have k on the brain for some reason.......

this occurs over the bass frequency range, during actual field measurement the upper treble levels have been measured at less than 1 ohm, near actual short circuit. I remember the first time I read that spec, I thought it was a misprint, until a 200w ch sand amp I had fell on its proverbial **** trying to drive them.

Energy resonances for mine are actually redirected through the use of a placeted panel, very ingenious, so although resonances occur the energy is not wasted.

The point is nothing near flat causing an amp to fall on its ****. Just like the Marsh in Ricardo's experience. An amp clips the wave because it cannot keep up with demand, so I am calling **** on a flat 8 ohm curve for the MMG makes no sense.

Some of you might want to try some panels in your journey.

RT1

Systems · April 2009

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

I have k on the brain for some reason...

Hit by falling icecicles maybe?:D

so I am calling **** on a flat 8 ohm curve for the MMG makes no sense.

Though they are panels the Planar magnetic ones used in Maggies are completely different animals compared to an ESL's and the load they present to an amp is different.The Planar Magnetic looks more like a pure resitance to an amp whereas ESL's can present a capacitive load.The MMG's impedance plot indicates it to be a very flat 5ohm's in the bass and 4ohms on the ribbon tweeter ,though the graph doesn't show the hi frequencies, ribbons like Planar Magnets have linear(flat) impedances.

Some of you might want to try some panels in your journey.

I would like some Maggies or QUAD ESL 63's.

reeltrouble1 · April 2009

good one G!!! but we thawed out, well actually, we never ice over.

well if the Maggie is flat at 5
and the Marsh cannot drive it
then the Marsh is flat

I suppose not all that suprising as it is made of sand afterall.

RT1

McLoki · April 2009

SCompRacer wrote: »

LOL Oh yeah...wasn't that a planned demonstration of using amps with protection circuitry on the highly capacitive load ESL panels present?:rolleyes::eek::D Too bad we didn't have a picture of that.

In all fairness, the amp drove them to pretty high levels when hooked up normally (actually went into clipping). I was unaware they could present a load lower than 4 ohms and bridged the amp to see if it could drive them higher. Since bridging presents half the ohm load, at a 2 ohm speaker load, it presented a 1 ohm load to the bridged amp and the amp gave up at that point in rather grand fashion.

All in all, I was very glad nothing was damaged (amp or speakers). I can say that it drives LSi's quite nicely though.....

Michael

reeltrouble1 · April 2009

As Mega shows in the TAS quote the ESL's do not "cotton" to SS, so I would be remiss if I did not mention.

Tubes Rule.

RT1

megasat16 · April 2009

The next line said ~

"Nevertheless, I managed to get a remarkably clear, clean, neutral, present, and highly
detailed sound using them with the Krell 650 FPB CAST-technology monoblocks;"

While I agree Soundlabs make a good speakers, I can't help not to point out that the guy reviewed them knows next to nothing what he wanted to say in the first place.

If my sand amp can handle 0.7 ohms load for music, it's no problemo for the 1 ohms load representing HF in music. Actually, this baby has made Amazing Platinums (not MKIV) to the ear splitting levels without sweat at all. I stopped playing the music that loud just before the cops arrive to my door so I am all good.

I think most sand amp can drive the Soundlabs quite well but you like the sound of it or not is ultimate question and the answer lies with one's own ears.

Anyway, unlike the sand amps, Tubes BURN! So, just be careful!

SCompRacer · April 2009

The dont really cotton to solid state doesnt surprise me. That statement may apply to some, but not to all solid state amps when used to drive ESLs. Norm and I tried several different brands of amps on the panels/woofers before settling on the InnerSound MK II/Sanders ESL amps.

Here is a link to Roger Sanders white paper on his ESL amp.
http://www.sanderssoundsystems.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=52&Itemid=131

He explains what goes on when driving ESL speakers and the steps he took to build an amp that would be up to the task. There are folks over at the Martin Logan forum that use and like his amps. They took advantage of his 30 day risk free in-home trial and never sent them back.

reeltrouble1 · April 2009

Rich,

Are the Sanders available again?? I heard something about them being back.

RT1

megasat16 · April 2009

For a Whooping $15000 for the Kilowatt Monobloc (30K for the pair?)!

No protection circuit with 56 Trannies capable of 14000W to dissipate from 3200W rated power supply with 184V supply voltage, I got to see the guts of it!

SCompRacer · April 2009

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

Rich,

Are the Sanders available again?? I heard something about them being back.

RT1

Yes, Roger is back and doing well.
http://www.sanderssoundsystems.com/

I finally met him in person at the Feb 2009 Chicago Audio Society meeting. He showed his Sanders 10b speakers powered by Sanders Monoblock amps. While I don't agree with him on everything, he is a fine man and totally committed to customer service.

Mega, here is a shot of the innards of a Sanders ESL amp. I'll ask him if he has one of the Kilowatt.

megasat16 · April 2009

Thanks SCompRacer! The Sander ESL amp looks very clean inside!

It'll be very cool to see how the 56 trannies are mounted inside the Kilowatt amp. I am pretty much a sand guy when it comes to the power amps. Preamp is a different story!

But still, I found Tubes do not Rule over Sand with the Tube Preamp in the chain!

Ricardo · April 2009

My "new to me" modest sand amp has 32 transistors.

I'll pop it open and take some shots when it gets here, but here's a preview:

It also has 20 x 10,000 uF caps.

The best part, no tubes to change or bias.

SCompRacer · April 2009

You are most welcome mega. I sent Roger an email asking for an internal pic of the Kilo innards. The ESL amp has 36 output transistors. 18 per channel stacked in two rows of 9 on each heat sink.

I pretty much developed a whatever floats your boat attitude towards gear. Much depends on the type and amounts of distortion from the tube gear, when it occurs and if you like it.

Roger is pretty much a proponent of all SS gear with low distortion. I have tried his pre amp/phono stage and despite it being FET, I found it too neutral for my tastes and went back to my tube pre/phono. I do love his amp though. It will drive my speakers cleanly at ear bleeding levels. I'd like to get monos, but don't have the cash.

megasat16 · April 2009

No doubt for X250 being producing 250W @ 8ohms in Class A!

Ricardo · April 2009

The X250 is an A/AB amp; only the first few (40 or so I think) in class A.

megasat16 · April 2009

SCompRacer wrote: »

You are most welcome mega. I sent Roger an email asking for an internal pic of the Kilo innards. The ESL amp has 36 output transistors. 18 per channel stacked in two rows of 9 on each heat sink.

I pretty much developed a whatever floats your boat attitude towards gear. Much depends on the type and amounts of distortion from the tube gear, when it occurs and if you like it.

Roger is pretty much a proponent of all SS gear with low distortion. I have tried his pre amp/phono stage and despite it being FET, I found it too neutral for my tastes and went back to my tube pre/phono. I do love his amp though. It will drive my speakers cleanly at ear bleeding levels. I'd like to get monos, but don't have the cash.

Thanks! It'll be nice if Roger share the innards of the Kilowatt with us.

I figured ESL amp has 18 output transistors in each channel since there are two rows of resistors for biasing. It looks like a very solid amp for the cost he is selling it and a serious contender for RT1 tube amps!

megasat16 wrote: »

No doubt for X250 being producing 250W @ 8ohms in Class A!

Thanks for making the facts straight!

Systems · April 2009

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

well if the Maggie is flat at 5
and the Marsh cannot drive it
then the Marsh is flat

I spoke with a knowledgable Maggie guy today and he confirmed the resitive linear 4 -5ohm load but mentioned that the 86 db sensitivity rating stated by Magnepan is very optimistic.The real figure is probably in the low 80's.The combination of low sensitivity,lowish impedance,content of the source material and Ricardo's desire for higher listening levels is likely the reason for the Marsh running into clipping.

Ricardo wrote: »

The best part, no tubes ...

Bingo;)

reeltrouble1 · April 2009

yea that is the thing about sand amps you really have to push them hard before they start to sound good. Every guy I ever met (including myself) needed to push an SS amp to enjoy the rig, they just do not do it at lower levels lacking musicality compared to the tube. So the Pass should more than do the trick as far as loudness, more evidence about watt ratings not telling the whole story.

So we have learned some things about panels and the differences in them, excellent.

We also know...................

Tubes Rule.

RT1

reeltrouble1 · May 2009

I honestly cannot believe you guys are going to let me get away with that crack. Or perhaps you have moved me to your hopeless category.....

RT1

Systems · May 2009

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

yea that is the thing about sand amps you really have to push them hard before they start to sound good. Every guy I ever met (including myself) needed to push an SS amp to enjoy the rig, they just do not do it at lower levels lacking musicality compared to the tube.

We also know...................Tubes Rule.

RT1

You mean this dillusional rambling?We have all resigned to the fact that tubes have severely skewed your judgement as to what is accurate and what is not.:D

heiney9 · May 2009

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

yea that is the thing about sand amps you really have to push them hard before they start to sound good. Every guy I ever met (including myself) needed to push an SS amp to enjoy the rig, they just do not do it at lower levels lacking musicality compared to the tube. So the Pass should more than do the trick as far as loudness, more evidence about watt ratings not telling the whole story.

So we have learned some things about panels and the differences in them, excellent.

We also know...................

Tubes Rule.

RT1

Ted, I laughed out loud when I read this. It's simply not true.......but funny nonetheless

. The glow of tubes IS intoxicating.........like the glowing embers in a camp fire.

Ricardo · May 2009

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

yea that is the thing about sand amps you really have to push them hard before they start to sound good.

Until you get a real sand amp that produces the first 40 WPC or so in pure class A. Who needs tubes????

reeltrouble1 · May 2009

I played with SS amps for years (and still do actually) so dont even try, they sound much better when opened up, I remember reading an article about why this is but cannot recall where in the moment, but it had to do with output devices, yes they are accurate, but so clinical, sand is like looking at a woman in a gynocolgists chair, you get to see everything but there is no chance she is ever going to put her arms around and pull you in.

The best ss I ever had was that BAT, sounded nice, good power in class A, so I would suspect the Pass will be nice stepping stone for you Ricardo.

RT1

heiney9 · May 2009

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

I played with SS amps for years (and still do actually) so dont even try, they sound much better when opened up, I remember reading an article about why this is but cannot recall where in the moment, but it had to do with output devices, yes they are accurate, but so clinical, sand is like looking at a woman in a gynocolgists chair, you get to see everything but there is no chance she is ever going to put her arms around and pull you in.

RT1

RT1

I don't have much to open up with only 30wpc. I will say this latest amp is the most resolving amp I've heard even when playing it at a whispers level. The clarity and even dynamics are right there when at a very low level.

Of course it's more enjoyable to let her rip once in awhile and it's more dynamic and simply plays more effortlessly than amps 2-5X the rated output that I've had experience with. Simple is better.....PERIOD.

heiney9 · May 2009

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

I would suspect the Pass will be nice stepping stone for you Ricardo.

RT1

Ummmmm.....he's at the top.

. He done stepped on all the stones and arrived at the top 'o the mountain.

megasat16 · May 2009

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

hopeless.....

RT1

I know you are hopelessly Addicted to Tubes.

I did try Tube Preamp in my 2 channel rig for a couple of weeks. Tubes are nice and vocals is more alive but that also bring up the overall noise floor. Like I expected, Tube pre has a bit more warmth in the mids and crisper highs.

But I found some Sand Pre (namely Luxman C-02) comes very close (not yet exactly but damn close) to the Tube Pre and very low noise floor with better bass response. So, I have remove the Tube Pre from the rig and decided Tubes Do Not RULE at this time. If I have more money to spend on the Tube Pre in the future, I'll try again.

Everything changes with Time!

But Sand Stands Still!

reeltrouble1 · May 2009

megasat16 wrote: »

But Sand Stands Still!

Just like those who use it.....;)

When matching a tubed pre with a ss amp care must taken to avoid a gross impedance mismatch, this can result in a rise in noise level. The greatest strength of the tube is its abililty to outperform ss in the mids, and it is in the mids where music lives, never be confused about that.

Of course technology has also improved tubed gear, my experience with BAT demonstrates how tubed gear can be very neutral yet very musical. It is this musicality that puts the tube on top for me.

RT1

I'm clipping.

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