Need Suggestions/Help on amplifiers

rengnath · February 2009

Hello, I'm pretty new to the hobby and don't know much about powering home theater speakers in terms of using amplifiers. I know the more power you give a speaker, the cleaner the sound. All I have ever used is my current Yamaha reciever and I was going to look at getting a new one with more power, but I've heard adding a amplifier would be a better route. I need some help being pointed in the right direction. I would be interested in doing an amp, but I am clueless in what type of amp to buy and how much it should cost. My budget could fit up to around 500-700 dollars. I would like to give more power to my fronts, which consists of 2 sets of speakers. If possible, could you give input on where to start, different brands, costs, and what do I need leaving no details out. Like I said, I am completly new to anything more than a AVR with some wire to a set of speakers. Thanks

Lowell_M · February 2009

Welcome to the club! You are about to embark on a one way voyage into audio insanity that has no end.

You will get a ton of advice and examples of what you "should" buy. There are plenty of suggestions that will all work well in different ways.

I don't particularly like the sound of Yammy's, but if you like the sound in general and just wan tto open up the dynamics, detail and soundstage, you need an amp. I'm currently hooked on ADCOM as the older models are awesome value/$. You can usually find a GFA-7000 like the one I have in my HT for around $450 - $500 and has 130 wpc and all of the attributes of the ADCOM sound such as warmth, tremendous dynamic punch and great bass. When I added the ADCOM it really smoothed out the surround effect in my theater. There are others, I just prefer ADCOM. Your ears will tell you what you like. I recommend trying something used since you will almost always get what you put in it (minus shipping) if you want to try something else.

I'm not familiar with the Yamaha's but you need to have pre-outs on the back of your receiver, which you connect to the amp with interconnects and then connect the speaker wire to the amp.

rengnath · February 2009

Ok, so i found my first problem. All my receiver has is high level outs. I posted an IMG of what the back of the AVR looks like. Is there any way of using an amp with this reciever?

rengnath · February 2009

And also a-mattison, what dont you like about yamaha's? Im only asking cause I am so inexperienced and all I have ever really listened to is the yamaha. The only other brand Ive heard was a Denon when I went to go buy my monitor 7's, but my dad says that would cost some serious money. Ive heard Harmon Kardons have amazing sound, but never looked into actually getting one. What is a good sounding receiver in your opinion? And thanks for the welcome, its greatly appreciated.

Lowell_M · February 2009

Sorry, no way to use an amp with your Yammy. No pre-outs.

The last Yammy I heard was a few years ago, but remember the sound being kinda bright for my likes. I generally like a warmer sound, which is what Harman kardon is known for.

You can find good deals on Denon and Harman Kardon refurbished units. I have an H/K AVR-635, but just bought an AVR-247 refurbished unit on H/K's ebay page (Harman Audio) for $180. The 247 doesn't have a ton of power, but is perfect if you have an external amp. I like the H/K processing. (warning... I'm having a bit of a problem with the unit they sent me, so had to send it back. They should have a new one to me by the end of the week) They come with the full 2 year warreny that a new one would have.

Pioneers are also pretty awesome sounding, but I don't know what model to recommend or where to buy them other than to look into the Elite models.

Lowell_M · February 2009

Do you ever make your way through Roscoe, IL?

rengnath · February 2009

I have seen the Elites in American Tv, but they seem a little out of my price range. I never go down to Illinois, I am only about 40 min south of the WI/IL border though. (68 Miles from Chicago) I have noticed with the Yamaha that the highs are overwhelming, and Im assuming thats what bright means. I would definetly look into getting a HK reciever, I love the looks of them and the prices are in my range. So would I be better off getting a 200+ dollar AVR and an amp, or just spend 700+ on a really good AVR? I am only looking at going 5.1 so I wouldnt need to get anything with more channels and less power per channel.

Lowell_M · February 2009

Well... I didn't start helping you plug my own sale... but if you don't mind not having HDMI swithing... If I get the AVR-247 tweaked in I'm going to be selling my AVR-635 for $300. This would be one alternative to get you started because the 635 on its own is a rock solid powerhouse and should be a great improvement over the Yammy. Then, down the road you could add an amp.

You are welcome to stop by and hear my setup to give you an idea of the H/K sound with an external amp. Looks like you are about 90 miles from Roscoe.

Oh, and yes, you are right about the brightness.

rengnath · February 2009

Thats quite a haul for me, unfortunatly Im a college student that only gets 12 mi/gal in a pickup. I just checked HK's website and found the AVR-146 and AVR-354. Is the AVR-635 better in terms of power. The 146 has 60x5 and the 354 has 75x7. The power seems kind of low but I have heard that the small power rating do nothing but impress on the HK's. I just looked it up and it seems the 635 has a 75x7 rating and an MSRP OF $1299! I would definetly be interested if its in good condition. We could always set up something through ebay if you wouldnt mind, I could pay shipping. I wouldnt be able to do it for a couple weeks, but Im still looking at my options. Would I really even need an amp with that reciever or one with 60+ watts per channel from HK? I assume I would gain a ton over my current Yamaha

rengnath · February 2009

Oops, made a mistake with the 146. Its actually only 30 watts per channel at full power. If I can get a good reciever with warm sound and enough power, I would look no father into getting amps, ect. Im watching a couple HK's on ebay to see a general price range. I would look into getting a 2ch stereo but I dont think I want to loose my 5.1 ... atleast with 5.1 I have the option to do 2ch stereo with just my fronts. If I had no budget I would just get another setup for stereo/music listening.

TomBergamini · February 2009

My advise: first keep it simple and keep your priorities straight (saving for retirement, funding 6 mo emergency fund, taking vitamin D etc. all more imp than high fidelity). second, figure out if watch movies more than listen to music and go from there. third, read the tech reviews instead of listening to commenters on this blog, where most people just want to justify their own purchases; forth, purchase models just as they are about to be or have been discontinued and you will save a lot, last not least...why are you bothering with this? Are you sure it will be worth the expense? If possible, borrow someone's beefy amp and see if your fronts sound much different when fed more power...you might conclude the expense isnt worth it.

cnh · February 2009

Harman Kardon amps 'were' usually real world tested so that that low wattage is honest wattage. It's what a Pioneer 110 watt/7 would really put out continuous--about 50-55 watts/channel.

So don't be fooled by HK ratings.

Tom's advice above is also a good idea. Take a listen see what 'you' want, how things sound etc.

Yamahas are generally not considered 'warm' sounding amps. In fact, most solid state amps have trouble producing a truly lush warmth.

Among those that come close are the Denon, HK and Onkyo. They all sound a bit different.

My experience with Yamaha tells me that they sound better in 2 channel because they have way more power in 2 channel than in 5.1 or 7.1. As a two channel there strength is bass dynamics, loudness, and a somewhat brighter high end with muddled mids.

But that's my ears? Not yours.

cnh

rengnath · February 2009

Unfortunatly none of my friends are in the home audio hobby, they all spent there money on education. Just kidding, I am actually going to school so I can get a job that can create a budget for my expensive dreams. I like home theater and want to bother with getting into amps and finding other peoples opinions because there is so much to learn. I dont want to go to a store and ask because I am a 18 year old kid, and the sales associates in the local stores just try to make an expensive sale to me because they figure I will assume that they know best and I am getting a good deal. There are far worst things I can spend my money on and I want to enjoy life. I spend my money wisely, and I cant take any of it with me if I die tomorrow anyways. Im here because I need to be pointed in the right direction of what to start looking at since there are so many options.

rengnath · February 2009

Ive been using my yamaha in 2ch for music lately and there is something lacking there. The 5.1 sounds fine, but its normally at a comfortable listening level. I need something to drive my rt1000i and monitor 7's to the best they can be. I am definetly interested in getting a new reciever though because I wont be able to do anything more with my Yamaha.

Lowell_M · February 2009

TomBergamini wrote: »

My advise: first keep it simple and keep your priorities straight (saving for retirement, funding 6 mo emergency fund, taking vitamin D etc. all more imp than high fidelity). second, figure out if watch movies more than listen to music and go from there. third, read the tech reviews instead of listening to commenters on this blog, where most people just want to justify their own purchases; forth, purchase models just as they are about to be or have been discontinued and you will save a lot, last not least...why are you bothering with this? Are you sure it will be worth the expense? If possible, borrow someone's beefy amp and see if your fronts sound much different when fed more power...you might conclude the expense isnt worth it.

How very insightful for your 17th post. Why are you here if you aren't interested in finding out more about the hobby. If you read most of the veterans posts on here most people recommend listening before you buy and also buying used so that you can sell easy if you don't like what you hear.

Lowell_M · February 2009

rengnath wrote: »

Thats quite a haul for me, unfortunatly Im a college student that only gets 12 mi/gal in a pickup. I just checked HK's website and found the AVR-146 and AVR-354. Is the AVR-635 better in terms of power. The 146 has 60x5 and the 354 has 75x7. The power seems kind of low but I have heard that the small power rating do nothing but impress on the HK's. I just looked it up and it seems the 635 has a 75x7 rating and an MSRP OF $1299! I would definetly be interested if its in good condition. We could always set up something through ebay if you wouldnt mind, I could pay shipping. I wouldnt be able to do it for a couple weeks, but Im still looking at my options. Would I really even need an amp with that reciever or one with 60+ watts per channel from HK? I assume I would gain a ton over my current Yamaha

The AVR-354 has the same power as the 635. One thing that you will realize as you get more into this hobby is that when you get into quality gear power ratings start to not mean as much, but you also have to look at the rest of he ratings. Another local Polkie just bought a 30wpc amp that will blow the socks off my ADCOM GFA-555 which is 200wpc. I hope to get to hear it soon, but apparently its awesome.

Anyway, I won't be ready to sell my HK for a couple of weeks and we could work something out for shipping, paypal etc. through PM's on the forum no problem. In the mean time, keep researching on here to see if there are any other alternatives that catch your eye too. There are some on hear who will push one particular brand and tell you its the best and everything else sucks, but everybody's ears are different and you might like something that I don't. I don't think you would regret trying out an H/K receiver though.

Hawkeye · February 2009

Hi Rengath and welcome.

I've only got a couple pointers which may help you.

First, are you going into a dorm room? If you are, be certain your roomies won't be spilling beer or dropping Ramen into your gear. I'd probably wait to do anything until the 2nd or 3rd year when you can live off campus and have a choice in roomies.

Second, before doing anything, try and decide what you dislike/like about the gear you have now. It really does not matter what the reason is. Maybe it does not get as loud as you want, or you'd like more clarity. Once you identify what your likes and dislikes are, you can make a better informed decision on what gear can correct your dislikes.

I just finished putting my third child through college. Believe me, over the past 7 years I've bought every AVR I could find after finding the Ramen and beer had toasted them or they had been turned up to 11 for extended periods of time. I'd mostly find them at pawn shops and yard sales for next to nothing. I'm not saying this will happen to you but it can. You won't always be in the room and that is when most of the damage occurs.

Good luck in both of your educations

Gordon

rengnath · February 2009

Hawkeye wrote: »

Hi Rengath and welcome.

I've only got a couple pointers which may help you.

First, are you going into a dorm room? If you are, be certain your roomies won't be spilling beer or dropping Ramen into your gear. I'd probably wait to do anything until the 2nd or 3rd year when you can live off campus and have a choice in roomies.

Second, before doing anything, try and decide what you dislike/like about the gear you have now. It really does not matter what the reason is. Maybe it does not get as loud as you want, or you'd like more clarity. Once you identify what your likes and dislikes are, you can make a better informed decision on what gear can correct your dislikes.

I just finished putting my third child through college. Believe me, over the past 7 years I've bought every AVR I could find after finding the Ramen and beer had toasted them or they had been turned up to 11 for extended periods of time. I'd mostly find them at pawn shops and yard sales for next to nothing. I'm not saying this will happen to you but it can. You won't always be in the room and that is when most of the damage occurs.

Good luck in both of your educations

Gordon

Thanks for the welcome gordon. Good news is I currently commute to college from home so my system is tucked away safe and sound in the basement. I would never take my system to college, even though its nothing special ... I would kill myself if anything happened to it. I think I will take amattison's advice and definetly start listening to recievers. I want to look at HK, and Im going to stay in an AVR so I can still get my 5.1 channels.

The AVR-354 has the same power as the 635. One thing that you will realize as you get more into this hobby is that when you get into quality gear power ratings start to not mean as much, but you also have to look at the rest of he ratings. Another local Polkie just bought a 30wpc amp that will blow the socks off my ADCOM GFA-555 which is 200wpc. I hope to get to hear it soon, but apparently its awesome.

Anyway, I won't be ready to sell my HK for a couple of weeks and we could work something out for shipping, paypal etc. through PM's on the forum no problem. In the mean time, keep researching on here to see if there are any other alternatives that catch your eye too. There are some on hear who will push one particular brand and tell you its the best and everything else sucks, but everybody's ears are different and you might like something that I don't. I don't think you would regret trying out an H/K receiver though.

Hello amattison, keep me posted on your 635. I think im going to look for an HK with atleast 50/channel. I would love to do this without adding an amp because maybe I will be able to keep some money in my pocket so hopefully a high quality reciever will be enough. Im also going to start looking on craigslist to see if theres anything local. My speakers arent huge, so they dont need a ton of power. I would like to feed them some more just to get better quality. I wish I could get more loudness out of them but I dont think that is possible. Suggestions here? Can a speaker go louder with a better amp without doing damage to the speakers? Because I can take them loud now, its just when they get louder I back off a little because Im afraid of ruining the drivers. Thanks for all the help everyone!
Bobby

tonyb · February 2009

Just for giggles.........why the two sets of front speakers?

rengnath · February 2009

tonyb wrote: »

Just for giggles.........why the two sets of front speakers?

I dont mind you asking at all. The reason is, I just picked up the Monitor 7's and I wanted more power in the front when listening to music. My yamaha allows 2 sets of front speakers, both are switched so I can turn them on and off when ever, and both sets will work when listening in 2 channel. Adding the second set added so much more to the front of my system. Do AVR's normally support 2 sets of fronts or is this uncommon?

rengnath · February 2009

I will probably end up taking my monitor 7's and moving them to the back and just loose the rears I have now. They are just little speakers in the rear anyways so I could use something bigger back there. Otherwise if I go 7.1, the rears I have now can be the mids. Im in an open basement right now, its supposed to be finished soon. Right now the 2 sets of fronts surrond the listener that is in the "sweet spot" on the couch. But I got to get to school, I wont be back till around 6:00PM central so Ill post some pics of my setup and everything then. Thanks again and talk to you all soon.
Bobby

rengnath · February 2009

Here is it everyone. Like I said, the 2 pairs of fronts are running of the same channels with different outputs. They actually sound very good together in HT, the rt1000i's add great mids and the monitor 7's hit the crisp highs.

devani · February 2009

that's very good looking basement you got there....HK receivers have warm sound and I have 445 as pre/pro...don't let the HK rating fool you....it will be more than enough.

ben62670 · February 2009

Another vote for HK. I had an HK that was rated at 50wpc to all channels, and it killed my previous Yammi 110wpc receiver in every which way. The HK's have a nice warm yet robust sound, and most have a very good Pre out section.
Welcome to Club Polk.
Ben

rengnath · February 2009

devani wrote: »

that's very good looking basement you got there....HK receivers have warm sound and I have 445 as pre/pro...don't let the HK rating fool you....it will be more than enough.

Thanks Devani, I cant wait to get an enclosed room down there. Right now the basement is completly open with no drywall on the outside or ceilings so sound travels freely. It will sound so much better when the room becomes 12x16 with carpet and a drop ceiling. Ive been reading reviews on the HK's and there arent too many negatives, just the people who complain about high costs, but you get what you pay for

rengnath · February 2009

ben62670 wrote: »

Another vote for HK. I had an HK that was rated at 50wpc to all channels, and it killed my previous Yammi 110wpc receiver in every which way. The HK's have a nice warm yet robust sound, and most have a very good Pre out section.
Welcome to Club Polk.
Ben

Thanks Ben, my HTR-5840 is only putting out 80wpc so if I can move to an HK 2 Channel that is rated at 80 real watts per channel, I think that will add so much more when using them with my monitor 7's. Im keeping the option open of going 2 channel and just having 2 different setups so I can compare the Yamaha and Harman Kardon. Ive grown up with the Yamaha brand since I was a baby, my dad had one in his setup and my brother has one in his. I figure if I like the HK (Im sure I will but I dont want to get in too deep and found out its not my style

) I can just get a 7.1/5.1 for my HT system in the basement, and use the 2 channel when listening to music at the garage parties.;)

apphd · February 2009

rengnath, sounds like you know there is a lot more to a good sound than spec sheets. It sounds like you have an idea on what sound you are looking for, you just need to decide how you want to approach it. Then buy what sounds the best to you. Keep in mind everything is not going to sound the same with your speakers in your room, but by listening to your choices, you will get a feel for how different manufactures each have their own sound signature (or lack of) and neutral. You can spend the $$ on a good AVR. Don't forget NAD, Outlaw, Sunfire, and Rotel as possible as well. Or a good entry level AVR with pre-outs and a separate amp. Both directions have their advantages, and disadvantages. Going to school I'm sure puts you on a budget, but TAKE YOUR TIME to decide what you want and shop for a good used deal. A good used deal is not only a good price, but also one you feel very comfortable with doing business with the seller. If you find a good deal, but something just doesn't feel right, back away, there will be other deals.

Although you are not totally satisfied with your system as is, it is no slouch, so just keep telling yourself not to rush it and find what's right for YOU.
Good Luck

rengnath · February 2009

Thanks apphd,
I understand totally what you are saying. I'm going to start looking at the route of going 2 channel for music, and then keep my current system for HT. I dont mind the sound when listening in home theater currently, its the music that I want to have more bang. I found a 2 channel HK 3490 on ebay for $325 and that puts out 120/channel. I think if I start with that using my monitor 7's, I could possibly upgrade to a bigger speakers if I save up over summer. I would really like a pair of Klipsch Heresy III's, but they are 1200/pair. So thats alot of saving, but it might be worth it.

Need Suggestions/Help on amplifiers

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