CD player DAC question
kevhed72
Posts: 5,055
My Pioneer SC-05 AVR comes with the Wolfson WM8740 DAC. I have been researching Cambridge CD players and the question is: Why would I need / want a higher end unit when I can just use the optical output on the Cambridge 340C and connect to my AVR via optical output? (not a sarcastic question / just looking for other pro's / con's for the higher priced units) Thanks...
Post edited by kevhed72 on
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My Pioneer SC-05 AVR comes with the Wolfson WM8740 DAC. I have been researching Cambridge CD players and the question is: Why would I need / want a higher end unit when I can just use the optical output on the Cambridge 340C and connect to my AVR via optical output? (not a sarcastic question / just looking for other pro's / con's for the higher priced units) Thanks...
Good question and fraught with decisions based on how you use your rig.
I've heard very good things about the SC-05's sound using the Wolfson DACs - so for you, optically connecting a CDP as a transport only and letting your AVR be the DAC master may provide the level of satisfaction you are happy with.
If you did decide to quest for even better sound with a higher end CDP with even better DACs (you'd have to go up beyond the 340c for that), then you may find that your AVR as preamp/amp may be a limiting factor so that you don't get a good return on your investment.
Maybe not, maybe for your setup you would hear an audible difference to your liking.
But - you need to be aware of how you are using all of the components together.
Meaning, if you really want to make use of a higher end CDP with better DACs to the best of their ability, then you would need to ensure that you've set your AVR to be in a pure direct mode that passes the analog outputs from your CDP (or external DAC) all the way thru the AVR to the speaker outputs.
Beware though, some AVRs in a pure direct mode do not provide a sub output so if you have a sub connected up to your AVR, your sub will not output any sound.
And if you do want your sub to be on - then the AVR can not be in pure direct, but that means the AVR is now converting the analog inputs from your high end CDP (or DAC) back to digital and now you are defeating the purpose of your investment in the more expensive CDP (or DAC) because your AVR is now doing the final DAC conversion.
There are several optional permutations of how you have your rig setup if you are serious about 2-channel performance/quality:
* you could connect your sub up to line level outputs so that it is always on
* you could have 2 sets of cables to your sub, line level and lfe/sub out and you manually swap the two depending on what you are listening to
* you don't mind if the sub turns off for pure direct
* you could buy an integrated amp with HT bypass so that your CDP can be directly connected to the int amp and the AVR is connected to the int amp via the HT bypass
* you could put together a completely separate 2-channel system
Take it slow and easy, one step at a time and have fun
H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music. -
you only need to consider a dac if the one in your player is not any good, it is as simple as that, unless that is if also want to use numerous sources into a dac with mulitple inputs. Generally the dac found in an AVR is not of the highest quality. Subsequently AVR's are rarely seen in hi-fi 2ch systems.
RT1 -
Thanks for the feedback folks. I normally use the AVR in pure direct for 2-channel listening, and rarely use my sub for 2-channel. (My system does double duty as HT/2 channel).
Another option I was kicking around is use my Sony 350 BD player as the transport and use any funds toward an external DAC, and then somewhere down the road upgrade the transport. (Well, let me go in the back yard now and water my money tree for all this :rolleyes:) -
just make sure you get the tree's roots in deep, going to need it during WAF storms.......
as said everything in time.......the hunt can become just as enjoyable as the gear......something like
see
want
covet
acquire
or some such thing
anyway if your going to go double duty the advice about the by-pass is spot on, the AVR by its nature is full of nasty things concerning an audio signal, great for HT though.
have fun.
RT1 -
Just because your receiver has the same DAC as a certain CDP, it doesn't mean they will sound the same."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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Just because your receiver has the same DAC as a certain CDP, it doesn't mean they will sound the same.
Absolutely true!
There are many ways to muck up the signal quality of a given DAC, no matter how good the specs for the individual part are. It's really hard to even match the manufacturer specs for a DAC because those test results are taken on a specially designed fixture with near perfect power, ground, and output circuity, with no interference from other circuits that would be present in an actual product. -
I agree with the post about a DAC being a good idea for those who want to improve their material from more than one source. I have recently added the Bryson DBA-1 to my system and was suprised at the incredible improvement in my music. I have a old California Audio Lab CL-10 I use as a transport, which is ideal for me because it is a five disk changer, but I always felt my music could be better. I always felt the positives of a changer, compromised sound quality. However, this DAC has been revealing new details from all my CD's and I would bet my current CD playback would rival several higher end stand alone CD players. This DAC has several inputs, so I use it with my PS3, which I can use as a music server and have even looked forward to using my laptop to play higher resolution music downloads. Although the Bryston is limited to 16/48, via USB. Though there are several devices that convert UDB to SP/DIF to play the high resolution music, up to 24/192. I guess my point is...DAC's may not be for everyone, but I know it was a great addition to my system.Anthem D2v
NAD M50 Music Server
B & K Reference 200.5
Parasound A21
B & W 804 (Mains)
B & W HTM1 (Center)
Polk Rti4 (Surrounds)
PS3
Seaton Submersive HP
Pioneer PDP 6010FD Kuro -
The DAC is only a portion of the audio signal path. Just because your AVR uses the same DAC as a certain CDP does not mean the the resulting sound will be the same.2 channel - Willsenton R8 tube integrated, Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE DAC, audio optimized NUC7i5, Windows 10 Pro/JRiver MC29/Fidelizer Plus 8.7 w/LPS and external SSD drive, PS Audio PerfectWave P3 regenerator, KEF R3 speakers, Rythmik F12SE subwoofer, Audioquest Diamond USB cable, Gabriel Gold IC's, Morrow Audio SP5 speaker cables. Computer - Windows 10/JRiver, Schiit Magni 3+/Modi 3+, Fostex PMO.4n monitors, Sennheiser HD600 headphones
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The analog section is more important than the DAC used.Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
Thanks
Ben -
This thread makes my head hurt lol
I am so clueless and have alot to learn
Whats the highest sampling rate a dac can do because it seems like there all 24 bit with 192khz so wouldn't they all sound the same ?
I was looking on the gone and theta has these extreem dac cards thats like 384khz or somthin -
polkfarmboy wrote: »This thread makes my head hurt lol
I am so clueless and have alot to learn
Whats the highest sampling rate a dac can do because it seems like there all 24 bit with 192khz so wouldn't they all sound the same ?
I was looking on the gone and theta has these extreem dac cards thats like 384khz or somthin
Generally speaking, sampling rates should be considered in two areas:
1) Sample rate from the source - as in a redbook CD at 16bits/44KHz
2) "UP"sample capability of the source or DAC
If the source puts out the standard redbook rate, then that it typically written as NOS (non-oversampling) and any DAC should be compatible with that and do the D-to-A conversion on that.
If the source can upsample (by interpolation of the standard bit stream) to a higher rate, then you need to ensure that the DAC can accept that upsampled bit rate to do the D-to-A conversion.
Some DACs have built in 'upsampling' to interpolate the standard bit rate to something higher (like 24bits/192KHz, etc).
I have not done any of my own direct comparisions of standard non-oversampled DACs or upsampled so I can't say if one sounds better than the other.
There is market literature that would make one believe that upsampling sounds better. Then again, I've also read that a really well designed NOS DAC is 'the best'.
Let your own ears decide.
{edit}
Also, beware of the fine print when reading specs. Some CDPs will claim to use Brand "X" DAC that is 24/192KHz, but then there will be no mention of upsampling. So, really the DAC is not upsampling, but is running at the 'regular' 16/44 and the 24/192 capability is not being used.
H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music. -
The analog section is more important than the DAC used.
The analog section basically being the output of the signal after the DAC does its 'conversion' (?)
I saw an older model Rotel 855 on Audiogon modified with tubes, so I would assume the tubes are part of the analog section... -
I like your discussion here. Let me ask any of you a question: Which signal would give the best sound quality? Is it through analog ( red and wite cable - two channels ), HDMI, coax or optical ? You will need to consider the fact that you'll only listen to either XRCD, DVD-audio or SACD.
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Well if this can sway your decision, I went from an OPPO transport going through a $4000 Timbre DAC and ended up going with a relatively high end tube CDP and haven't looked back.
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hearingimpared wrote: »Well if this can sway your decision, I went from an OPPO transport going through a $4000 Timbre DAC and ended up going with a relatively high end tube CDP and haven't looked back.
I was just going to ask if adding a good outboard DAC to an OPPO (me: OPPO-83) would result in any good sonic benefits vs getting the OPPO-83SE mod.
H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music. -
Depends if the external DAC is better than the DAC in the $900 do-it-all Oppo. You get what you pay for. On the other hand, the $500 Cambridge-Audio DAC Magic has been favorably compared to the $1500 Cambridge-Audio 840C CD player.
That specifc DAC is still an option, figuring I would use my Sony as a transport for now, and purchase a used Cambridge DacMagic. (My old Yamaha CDP is no longer tolerable...) -
Depends if the external DAC is better than the DAC in the $900 do-it-all Oppo. You get what you pay for. On the other hand, the $500 Cambridge-Audio DAC Magic has been favorably compared to the $1500 Cambridge-Audio 840C CD player.
Hmmm...I'm running a Cambridge Audio 640c v2 now with dual Wolfson DACs to my Music Fidelity A5 and then on to my B&W CDM-1NTs (just realized that I've got alot of UK stuff - no conscious plan, really).
I like 'detail' and the 640c V2 CDP is, by reputation, detailed - but oft times referred to as 'analytic'.
I would tend to agree somewhat.
So - would you say that this is characteristic of the 840c and the DAC Magic - is 'detailed' and 'analytic' a Cambridge Audio trait?
H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music. -
I read the favorable DAC Magic review in stereophile, but I do not remember all the 'details' in the review.
Found it - thanks!
http://www.stereophile.com/digitalprocessors/cambridge_audio_azur_dacmagic_da_converter/#
Reading it now.....
H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music. -
They both have their positives. I found that the DacMagic had a fuller sound and imaged better. Meanwhile, the 840C was more transparent and dynamic.Depends if the external DAC is better than the DAC in the $900 do-it-all Oppo. You get what you pay for. On the other hand, the $500 Cambridge-Audio DAC Magic has been favorably compared to the $1500 Cambridge-Audio 840C CD player.
They both, along with the 540C have the Cambridge house sound, even though they don't all share the same DAC chip."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
Lots of interesting reading above. And many good suggestions. Now for the LOW END suggestion.
If I am not mistaken the Pioneer SC-0X ICE amp AVRs have not only Wolfsons but PQLS which works with certain Elite source units to further reduce jitter and clocking errors. It might just be worth trying one of the Elite sources that would 'lock' with the SC AVR and see what you think. According to Mantis (Dan) they sound quite good together.
Otherwise you can spend a considerable amount of money on transports and DACs, tube buffers, etc. into the 1000s (many 1000s) of dollars searching for the Holy Grail of CD sound.
cnhCurrently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!
Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
[sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash] -
Erik Tracy wrote: »Hmmm...I'm running a Cambridge Audio 640c v2 now with dual Wolfson DACs to my Music Fidelity A5 and then on to my B&W CDM-1NTs (just realized that I've got alot of UK stuff - no conscious plan, really).
I like 'detail' and the 640c V2 CDP is, by reputation, detailed - but oft times referred to as 'analytic'.
I would tend to agree somewhat.
So - would you say that this is characteristic of the 840c and the DAC Magic - is 'detailed' and 'analytic' a Cambridge Audio trait?
I've got the Cambridge Audio 840C and I'd say that definition applies. But mated with tubes and speakers that aren't shrill, that can be a very good thing.2 channel - Willsenton R8 tube integrated, Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE DAC, audio optimized NUC7i5, Windows 10 Pro/JRiver MC29/Fidelizer Plus 8.7 w/LPS and external SSD drive, PS Audio PerfectWave P3 regenerator, KEF R3 speakers, Rythmik F12SE subwoofer, Audioquest Diamond USB cable, Gabriel Gold IC's, Morrow Audio SP5 speaker cables. Computer - Windows 10/JRiver, Schiit Magni 3+/Modi 3+, Fostex PMO.4n monitors, Sennheiser HD600 headphones -
Lots of interesting reading above. And many good suggestions. Now for the LOW END suggestion.
If I am not mistaken the Pioneer SC-0X ICE amp AVRs have not only Wolfsons but PQLS which works with certain Elite source units to further reduce jitter and clocking errors. It might just be worth trying one of the Elite sources that would 'lock' with the SC AVR and see what you think. According to Mantis (Dan) they sound quite good together.
Otherwise you can spend a considerable amount of money on transports and DACs, tube buffers, etc. into the 1000s (many 1000s) of dollars searching for the Holy Grail of CD sound.
cnh
So as far as an Elite CD player goes, would the a Pioneer DV-58AV fit the bill?
http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/486672987/pioneer-dv-58av?v_c=Shopping&srccode=cii_13736960&cpncode=25-36175032-2
It looks like it will play everything but BD, which I already have the Sony for... -
OK...I can kill this thread now. I decided I needed a DEDICATED CD player, since 90% of my music is on standard CDs. I scooped up a Cambridge 640c off Ebay for under 300.00 total, which to me seems like a deal if it works OK
(knock....knock). Folks thanks for all the info. and I'll try to post a mini-review when the unit arrives, hopefully by this weekend. -
OK...I can kill this thread now. I decided I needed a DEDICATED CD player, since 90% of my music is on standard CDs. I scooped up a Cambridge 640c off Ebay for under 300.00 total, which to me seems like a deal if it works OK
(knock....knock). Folks thanks for all the info. and I'll try to post a mini-review when the unit arrives, hopefully by this weekend.
I have same CDP - using AQ Columbia ICs. I think you will be quite pleased with the sound.
You got a good deal on it too!
H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music. -
the analog section is more important than the dac used.
bingo! This is where external DAC's usually excel.Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2 -
I just received a brand new (rebuilt) Museatex Bitstream DAC which has had somewhat of a radical upgrade available which many users on Audiogon are talking about. I have used a number of DAC's from Benchmark, Cambridge...and high end CDP's from Ayon and McIntosh among others...suffice to say I could sell any component in my system with the exception of the Bitstream DAC...it's incredible...must be heard to be believed. Think vinyl without scratch's and pops. The funny thing is...they can be bought on the used market for as little as $350 and upgraded for a few hundred more. Just a suggestion. Do your own research if interested.
