Question about HDCD's/HDCD players.

comfortablycurt

Hey everyone, I've been adding a lot of HDCD's to my collection lately...and I've got a few questions regarding the HDCD format.

The way I have my system set up, I can switch between using my Denon 2910's internal DAC's, and using my DPA Little Bit Three DAC(with the Denon as a transport) by simply switching inputs. The 2 channel output of the Denon goes straight to my pre, and the coax digital output of the Denon goes to the DAC, then to the pre.

If I'm playing an HDCD, and sending it through my DAC, am I even getting the "HDCD layer"? The 2910 does have HDCD decoding...but my external DAC doesn't(I'm assuming anyway). When I'm sending the Denon out over digital to the DAC, the HDCD indicator on the Denon's display is still lit up, but that doesn't really mean much. That simply means that the Denon itself is reading an HDCD. It doesn't necessarily mean that an HDCD signal is being sent to the pre.

So, is HDCD compatibility in a CD player based on how the disc is being read by the transport, or how it's being processed by the DAC?

I'm guessing that I'm not getting the HDCD "layer" when running it through my DAC. Either way, basically every HDCD I own sounds better when being run through the DAC. The low end in particular is much more prominent...much tighter sounding, and it even seems to dig a little lower when running through the DAC. The high end is also much better when running through the DAC. Switching between the two, it's as if a veil is lifted from in front of my tweeters when I switch to the DAC.


I own A LOT of HDCD's, and I want to get the best out of them. Up until now, my prospective options for a future source upgrade have been pretty limited because of my criteria. I've mainly looked at players that can play redbook, as well as both SACD and HDCD. The only dedicated CDP that I've found(in my price range) that plays both SACD and HDCD is the NAD M5.

If I'm not actually getting the HDCD format when running it through my DAC, this will make my future source upgrade easier. HDCD playback wouldn't really be a necessity anymore, so I'd just have to find a good redbook/SACD player(thinking Marantz SA-11S1:cool:) Although, I wouldn't mind adding a tubed HDCD player(Bada HD-22SE?) in addition to an SACD/Redbook player, just to mix things up. I think adding a bit of tube flavor would sound great on all of my Grateful Dead HDCD's.:)



Thanks in advance for any help!!:D

Happy listening,

Curt

TG Meat

I thought the only difference in a HDCD and redbook was the bit depth, 20 Vs. 16. I would think if your DAC will process a 20 bit depth, it should be ok. I hope my assumptions are correct.

billbillw

There is no HDCD 'layer'. A CD with HDCD just has a special encoding built in that allows an HDCD decoder to extract the 20-bit depth. It doesn't matter what player is reading the CD, it matter whether the DAC has HDCD decoding capability. I don't know anything about your DAC in particular, but if it had HDCD, it would typically have a light that comes on when it detects HDCD.

My guess is that no, you won't get the HDCD sound when you send it to your DAC. You need to play it through the Denon's analog output.

Face

Bill is correct.

Ricardo

comfortablycurt wrote: »

every HDCD I own sounds better when being run through the DAC.

That's because that ugly thing you have as a DAC is very good

heiney9

The Bada isn't that great; it's nice but not great and the tube part is simply a buffer after the analog section, IIRC. If you want both a stellar DAC that also decodes HDCD and is a bargain then the Adcom GDA700 is the one for you. And if you slightly mod it with new PS caps and OPA627 op-amps it will be beyond stellar.

So far on my GDA600 just doing the PS has yielded some nice results. Part II tomorrow night is to replace the original op-amps with the OPA627's as well as some critical caps in the signal path and getting rid of some unecessary ferrite filters, etc.

H9

Ricardo

heiney9 wrote: »

So far on my GDA600 just doing the PS has yielded some nice results.

How do you know that? Did you do a blind test?

heiney9

Ricardo wrote: »

How do you know that? Did you do a blind test?

Yes I did, I closed my eyes last week before the mod and closed them last night after the mod.

dkg999

My Jolida CDP doesn't claim to be HDCD capable, however you can hear a difference between std redbook and HDCD discs. I've read some debate on whether the DAC in the Jolida actually processes HDCD without having some stupid light come on. I just know that my HDCD discs as a whole sound better.

heiney9

HDCD encodes the equivalent of 20 bits worth of data in a 16-bit digital audio signal by using custom dithering, audio filters, and some reversible amplitude and gain encoding; Peak Extend, which is a reversible soft limiter and Low Level Range Extend, which is a reversible gain on low-level signals. There is thus a benefit at the expense of a very minor increase in noise.

HDCD encoding places a control signal in the least significant bit of a small subset of the 16-bit Red Book audio samples (a technique known as in-band signaling). The HDCD decoder in the consumer's CD or DVD player, if present, responds to the signal. If no decoder is present, the disc will be played as a regular CD.

In itself, the use of the first bit in the dithered least significant bit stream will degrade the sound quality on a non-HDCD player by decreasing the signal-to-noise ratio but only by a minuscule amount. HDCD Peak Extension, if chosen in HDCD mastering, will apply compression to the peaks which will be audible in playback on a non-HDCD system which does not apply the appropriate expansion curve.

HDCD provides several digital features, which the audio mastering engineer controls at his/her own discretion. They include

Dynamic range compression and expansion, with which virtually 4 more bits of dynamic range can be added to the musical signal.

Precision digital interpolation filtering with multiple modes of operation, which can reduce alias distortion and temporal smearing, resulting in a more natural, open, and accurate sound reproduction.

HDCD technology was developed between 1986 and 1991 by "Professor" Keith O. Johnson and Michael "Pflash" Pflaumer of Pacific Microsonics Inc. It was made publicly available as HDCD-enabled audio CDs in 1995.

In 2000, Microsoft acquired the company and all of its intellectual property assets.

There have been a number of players and processors over the years that were capable of properly decoding the information from HDCDs. Included were those from Spectral (USA), California Audio Labs (USA), Mark Levinson/Madrigal (USA), Arcam (UK), Burmester (Germany), Cary (USA), Naim (UK), Linn (UK), Classe (Canada), A&R Cambridge Ltd (ARCAM) (UK), Rotel (Japan) and Cayin-Spark (China). Outboard DACs (digital to analog converters) were produced by Berkeley Audio Design, Spectral, Classe, Mark Levinson, and others.

In 1998, Burr-Brown (now part of Texas Instruments) and Sanyo Electronics of Japan introduced low cost D to A converters with HDCD decoding included, allowing HDCD to be used in CD and DVD players in the $100 range. HDCD algorithms were included in DVD chips from many IC makers including Motorola and C-Cubed, allowing HDCD to be offered by mass-market DVD player makers such as Panasonic and Toshiba. As of 2007, a number of players continue to feature HDCD capability, including Harman Kardon, Denon, Marantz, Cary, Rotel, Mark Levinson, Shanling, NAD, Spectral. More recently the Oppo line of players all feature HDCD decoding.

There are no labels that record and release only HDCDs. Reference Recordings has produced many classical CDs in the HDCD format, which include new releases and have won numerous awards. Linn Recordings has a number of hybrid HDCD / SACDs, and also seem to enjoy a good reputation among music enthusiasts.

As for "mainstream" popular artists, Tool, The Beach Boys, Beck, The Grateful Dead, Jerry Garcia, Madonna, Mark Knopfler, King Crimson, Roxy Music (also Bryan Ferry), Van Halen, Joni Mitchell, Neil Young, Mannheim Steamroller, Kenny Chesney, Dixie Chicks, The B-52's, NOFX, Da Brat, and Mike Oldfield have released quite a few of their albums on HDCD. As of January 2007, there are roughly the same number of titles released on SACD as there are on HDCD-encoded CDs.

fbm211

.

Where do you get your HDCDs?Ebay has nothing I want.

Ern Dog

Reference Recordings label has some HDCD's.

comfortablycurt

billbillw wrote: »

There is no HDCD 'layer'. A CD with HDCD just has a special encoding built in that allows an HDCD decoder to extract the 20-bit depth. It doesn't matter what player is reading the CD, it matter whether the DAC has HDCD decoding capability. I don't know anything about your DAC in particular, but if it had HDCD, it would typically have a light that comes on when it detects HDCD.

My guess is that no, you won't get the HDCD sound when you send it to your DAC. You need to play it through the Denon's analog output.

Thanks for the info!!:) That clears things up.

I still need to do some more comparisons, but it seems like most of my HDCD's sound better when they're running through my external DAC, rather than the Denon's 2 channel outputs. Like I said in my original post...knowing this is going to make my future selection of a new source much easier. There are very few dedicated CDP's in my kind of price range that have both SACD and HDCD decoding, and knowing that my HDCD's currently sound better running through the DAC anyway...I won't really make HDCD decoding a priority.

I think my next source upgrade is going to be an Oppo BDP-83...or possible the SE version(which does have HDCD decoding). That's going to be a 2 in 1 kind of upgrade though, since my 2 channel rig serves as my "home theater" system as well, and I haven't gotten a Blu-ray player yet...for that matter, I'm still using a 27" CRT TV...lol....That's getting upgraded later this year though.

After that...I'll start looking at dedicated CDP's. I've just been wondering about this issue for a while now...and wanted to clear it up. Thanks again for the info!!

Ricardo wrote: »

That's because that ugly thing you have as a DAC is very good

Yes...this thing really is pretty ugly, and weird shaped, and awkward to stack with other gear.

However, it makes up for that by making a very significant upgrade to the overall sound of my rig!! Thanks again for the Karma Ricardo!!:D:D

When using the DAC, bass extension is noticeably deeper and richer sounding, and it's as if a curtain has been lifted from the tweeters, making them sound much more open. Midrange has much more of a liquid type of feel to it...it sounds fantastic!

heiney9 wrote: »

The Bada isn't that great; it's nice but not great and the tube part is simply a buffer after the analog section, IIRC. If you want both a stellar DAC that also decodes HDCD and is a bargain then the Adcom GDA700 is the one for you. And if you slightly mod it with new PS caps and OPA627 op-amps it will be beyond stellar.

So far on my GDA600 just doing the PS has yielded some nice results. Part II tomorrow night is to replace the original op-amps with the OPA627's as well as some critical caps in the signal path and getting rid of some unecessary ferrite filters, etc.

H9

Really? I've always heard pretty good things about the Bada's...especially when the cheap stock tubes are replaced. I've never heard one though, so I can't really say.

Either way, I don't think I'd want to have two separate CDP's in my rig. I'd rather have a good SACD/Redbook player, and an external DAC with HDCD decoding. Do the GDA600's have HDCD decoding, or just the 700's? I'll definitely look into them.

dkg999 wrote: »

My Jolida CDP doesn't claim to be HDCD capable, however you can hear a difference between std redbook and HDCD discs. I've read some debate on whether the DAC in the Jolida actually processes HDCD without having some stupid light come on. I just know that my HDCD discs as a whole sound better.

I've checked out the Jolida's before, and I've always heard good things about them. Their big drawback for me is the lack of SACD decoding though...the several SACD's that I have sound fantastic, and I plan to get many more in the future. I'd hate to give up SACD decoding.

heiney9 wrote: »

HDCD encodes the equivalent of 20 bits worth of data in a 16-bit digital audio signal by using custom dithering, audio filters, and some reversible amplitude and gain encoding; Peak Extend, which is a reversible soft limiter and Low Level Range Extend, which is a reversible gain on low-level signals. There is thus a benefit at the expense of a very minor increase in noise..............................As for "mainstream" popular artists, Tool, The Beach Boys, Beck, The Grateful Dead, Jerry Garcia, Madonna, Mark Knopfler, King Crimson, Roxy Music (also Bryan Ferry), Van Halen, Joni Mitchell, Neil Young, Mannheim Steamroller, Kenny Chesney, Dixie Chicks, The B-52's, NOFX, Da Brat, and Mike Oldfield have released quite a few of their albums on HDCD. As of January 2007, there are roughly the same number of titles released on SACD as there are on HDCD-encoded CDs.

Thanks a lot for posting all the info!! Some informative reading there! I didn't even know there were any Tool HDCD's. The only one I can seem to find any info about online is a release of Lateralus on HDCD...anyone know if any of their other albums were on HDCD? I need to complete my Tool collection anyway, and HDCD would be the way to go.

fbm211 wrote: »

.

Where do you get your HDCDs?Ebay has nothing I want.

I buy most of them locally at Best Buy...I buy very little music over the internet. I prefer instant gratification...lol

A lot of the time, HDCD's aren't really overtly advertised as being HDCD's. Many times they don't even really mention the fact that they're HDCD's in product descriptions from what I've seen.

Like Brock posted above...here's a list of some artists that use the HDCD format...

"As for "mainstream" popular artists, Tool, The Beach Boys, Beck, The Grateful Dead, Jerry Garcia, Madonna, Mark Knopfler, King Crimson, Roxy Music (also Bryan Ferry), Van Halen, Joni Mitchell, Neil Young, Mannheim Steamroller, Kenny Chesney, Dixie Chicks, The B-52's, NOFX, Da Brat, and Mike Oldfield have released quite a few of their albums on HDCD. As of January 2007, there are roughly the same number of titles released on SACD as there are on HDCD-encoded CDs."



To add a couple more...The Doors have several releases on HDCD, which sound fantastic! Rhino records in particular also has many HDCD releases...such as all of the officially released Grateful Dead CD's from the last 10-12 years or so(IIRC).

The Dead are the main reason for my concerns over the HDCD format, because they're my favorite band, and I listen to them more than anything else. I've got about 40 or so officially released Dead HDCD's...not to mention about 50 or so more between various bootleg CD's and cassette tapes, plus about 15 more on vinyl. It's a pretty significant part of my music collection, to say the least.:)






Thanks again for the info everyone!!


Any other suggestions on DAC's with HDCD decoding? I've looked at the DacMagic...but I don't believe that has HDCD decoding...correct?

Whenever I'm ready for a DAC upgrade(and it's going to be quite a while before I am, just looking to the future a bit), I'll probably be looking in the $500ish range. No problem buying used...and I'm not opposed to buying a lesser expensive unit, if it's a stellar performer. I just read up on the GDA-700 a little bit, and it seems to have a lot of very positive reviews...especially after modding/upgrading them.

What do the 700's usually sell for? $200-250 or so IIRC?

fbm211

Ive seen the 700s go for as low as 175.00.
It seems I have a few Non advertised HDCDs.I notice the light comes on when I pop in some discs recorded in stockholm.Didnt notice much difference untill I began to listen at higher volume levels.Much more dynamic sounding.
Ill have to check around for some of the madonna ones. Thanks

iaamap

thanks for info in this thread. I have a Denon 2910 that I am trying to get the digital out to work into a PS Audio DIII DAC for 2 channel system and can not seem to get any sound. What settings need to be where? Thanks Much in Advance!!!

comfortablycurt

iaamap wrote: »

thanks for info in this thread. I have a Denon 2910 that I am trying to get the digital out to work into a PS Audio DIII DAC for 2 channel system and can not seem to get any sound. What settings need to be where? Thanks Much in Advance!!!

Are you using the Pure Direct modes? If so, go into the Pure Direct setup menu, and make sure that the digital output is set to on. Setting Pure Direct mode to "normal" will also turn on all of the outputs.

cnh

Why don't you just upgrade to a Denon DVD-3910 and mod that....use that as a solid transport...it should be inherently a bit better than what you currently have and still cheaper and probably a better transport than the Oppo at 20.5 lbs of weight! vs. the Oppos rather light weight design?

cnh

comfortablycurt

cnh wrote: »

Why don't you just upgrade to a Denon DVD-3910 and mod that....use that as a solid transport...it should be inherently a bit better than what you currently have and still cheaper and probably a better transport than the Oppo at 20.5 lbs of weight! vs. the Oppos rather light weight design?

cnh

I've read about modding the 2910's and 3910's...but I'll most likely go with the Oppo. This is going to be a dual purpose upgrade...I'll probably get the BDP-83SE for it's superior analog stage...but I'll also be buying it for it's Blu-ray capabilities, since I don't have a Blu-ray player yet.

After that, my next source upgrade will be a dedicated SACD/Redbook player, rather than a universal player. Most likely a Marantz SA-11S1.

iaamap

Thanks I tried pure direct both in mode 1 and normal, it says digital is on but when i hook it to the dac, the lights on the dac blink as if it is not finding anything and no sound. i'm not sure on next steps. not sure about using a 3910(?) either, if i can't figure this out, i might just buy a real cd transport used off of audiogon or something

is it something about pcm that the dac does not like?

heiney9

Look at the settings on the dvdp and make sure you have it set to pcm. Not all dvdp's can be used with and outboard 2 ch dac.

I had an Adcom GDV850 dvdp that never would work with a 2 ch outboard dac. All I got was a bunch of digital hash noise becuase it was always outputting a digital signal in Dolby Digital.

H9

iaamap

should digital out be set to normal or pcm?

heiney9

iaamap wrote: »

should digital out be set to normal or pcm?

Not sure, simply because all manufacturer's have a little different lingo. If you have a pcm setting I'd try that. Try them all. Experimentation is the key if it's not clear from the owners manual.

H9

comfortablycurt

iaamap wrote: »

Thanks I tried pure direct both in mode 1 and normal, it says digital is on but when i hook it to the dac, the lights on the dac blink as if it is not finding anything and no sound. i'm not sure on next steps. not sure about using a 3910(?) either, if i can't figure this out, i might just buy a real cd transport used off of audiogon or something

is it something about pcm that the dac does not like?

Hm...are you sure that the DAC works? Just ruling out the obvious...

Checked connections/cables?

iaamap wrote: »

should digital out be set to normal or pcm?

I'll check later...but I'm pretty sure it should be set to PCM.

However, I can assure you that your 2910 can be used with an outboard DAC. We'll get ya up and running.:)

iaamap

i appreciate your assistance. tried everything today to no avail. yes all connections good and DAC works perfect with my Rotel CD player just won't play with this damm Denon 2910. I tried having the denon output at 2 channel and digital set to normal and pcm, neither worked, have pure direct on

when attached to the ps audio dIII, the lights bounce around and do not recognize the coax coming in. the "locked" light which is on with rotel does not come on at all with the denon.

iaamap

mystery solved. I called ps audio and they said that their ps audio dIII DAC will not work with a dvd player. so there. i thought bits were bits but maybe not

comfortablycurt

iaamap wrote: »

mystery solved. I called ps audio and they said that their ps audio dIII DAC will not work with a dvd player. so there. i thought bits were bits but maybe not

Interesting. That seems kind of odd to me though...

Why wouldn't it work with a DVD player?

heiney9

comfortablycurt wrote: »

Interesting. That seems kind of odd to me though...

Why wouldn't it work with a DVD player?

Not odd at all, did you guys read my earlier post about an outboard DAC not working with the Adcom DVDp I had. It has to do with the digital output from many newer DVDp's are Dolby Digital and there is no 2ch PCM down conversion, I mean who uses only 2ch when watching a movie these days.

H9

JPSmario

heiney9 wrote: »

...I mean who uses only 2ch when watching a movie these days.

H9

don't need no stinkin' 5.1, I got SDA's :eek::D:D:D

pitdogg2

After reading all the comments I have one question i hope someone could shed some light on.
I'm lucky enough to own a Denon 2900 and a Denon 3910 both have been hooked up to my Denon 3805. As most know the 3910 and the 3805 have the ability to see the HDCD coding and the little light for HDCD comes on on the 3805 when my 3910 plays the Cd's that have the code. The Denon 3910 is attached by the "Denonlink" to the 3805 that is the only audio cabling i use for this player. Now when the Denon 2900 was in use whenever i played the HDCD Cd's the little light for HDCD on the 3805 never came on. I had the 2900 hooked up by the 5.1 analog outputs for the DVD-A/SACD use i bought it for I also had the Fiber optic cable hooked for the CD and DVD use. The digital light always was on for the CD playing, so the question is why would the 3805 see the Denonlink digital signal from the 3910 and light the HDCD light but would not light the light for HDCD from the digital optical cable from the 2900. You would think that the 3805 would see that there is some extra information coming through that optical cable. I never tried to hook up the 2ch analog outputs on the 2900 and now it would not be worth the effort to change out the 3910 to 2900 just to check.

comfortablycurt

heiney9 wrote: »

Not odd at all, did you guys read my earlier post about an outboard DAC not working with the Adcom DVDp I had. It has to do with the digital output from many newer DVDp's are Dolby Digital and there is no 2ch PCM down conversion, I mean who uses only 2ch when watching a movie these days.

H9

Hm...That's interesting. I always just assumed a digital bitstream was a digital bitstream.


Also...for the record, I watch all of my movies using only 2 channel.;)

JPSmario wrote: »

don't need no stinkin' 5.1, I got SDA's :eek::D:D:D

Exactly!!! SDA's have built in surround sound!!:D

hearingimpared

I have one HDCD, it is the politically correct (:mad: had I known that I would have never purchased it) version of the "Best of Dire Straights" and to the best of my knoweldge my CD player DOES NOT have HDCD decoding but it sure sounds better than most redbook CDs.