"Separation Issues" With the RTi12's...

Mike LoManaco

Our wall unit arrived today, and I moved the 12's into place on either side of it...however, I hadn't realized that the two side pieces from this unit, with glass shelving and doors, were so large they're really making the 12's part way out of the front soundstage and away from the screen. :mad:

Will I have a big issue with front stage cohesiveness in terms of too large a left/right separation? Will the front stage seem way too large, enough to make the main channel effects seem way out of the onscreen action? Essentially, will this hole created by the widely separated main channels (the 12's) have a disasterous effect on a cohesive DVD/Blu-ray soundtrack?

Again...asking this here, as there are plenty of RTi tower series owners in the know and with experience in terms of placement...

sandworms

pics would help

[Deleted User]

Hello Mike,
In order to give you a meaningful answer we would need to know some information. Can you tell us how far apart the front speakers will be and how far the audience will sit from the television? We need to know the relationship between speaker separation and viewing distance.
Regards, Ken

Mike LoManaco

sandworms wrote: »

pics would help

Sorry 'Worms...

I don't have access to my camera as we're still unpacking in the new house here, and my cell's camera is worth s**t.

The 50" Sony SXRD is in a center piece arrangement of the wall unit, with two larger shelved pieces flanking it to the left and right; the RTi12's are then flush up against these outer pieces, taking the mains aggressively away from the sides of the screen. But I simply have no choice to run it like this because of our setup and the fact that the wife wanted this wall unit desperately with no alternatives.

I'm concerned the 12's are way too outside of the front soundstage...

Mike LoManaco

Kenneth Swauger wrote: »

Hello Mike,
In order to give you a meaningful answer we would need to know some information. Can you tell us how far apart the front speakers will be and how far the audience will sit from the television? We need to know the relationship between speaker separation and viewing distance.
Regards, Ken

Thanks for your quick reply, Ken...

Let me see if I could answer some of this for you...I will get exact measurements in terms of how far apart the speakers are from each other and the screen, but in the meantime, the sweet spot will be approximately eight or so feet from the front stage/TV, and this will be a two-seat loveseat arrangement, with a three-seater sofa off to the side wall for guest seating. This puts the guest seating a bit out of ideal viewing, but every seat in the house can't be the sweet one...;)

comfortablycurt

That's not necessarily a bad thing. How far apart are they? How far away is your seating area from the center point of your front soundstage?


You don't always want your speakers directly to the side of the TV. Separation is a good thing, and creates a much larger soundstage. Ideally, your speakers and seating position should create an equilateral triangle. For instance, if your seating area is 84" away from the center point of your front soundstage, your two front channels should be about 84" apart.

If you have the speakers smack up against the side of the TV, you're getting a drastically reduced soundstage, and really not using your surround sound to it's full potential.


Pics would help...they don't need to be high def. It would help to get more of a feel for the area you're talking about.


edit-You said that the distance from seating area to TV is about 8 feet, so you'd want the speakers to be approximately 8 feet apart. A little bit more/less as needed would be perfectly fine as well. The important thing, is that each speaker is approximately the same distance away from the center point.

Mike LoManaco

Curt,

As always, thanks for your insight and thoughts...they're making me feel better about this situation already!

comfortablycurt wrote: »

That's not necessarily a bad thing. How far apart are they? How far away is your seating area from the center point of your front soundstage?

I need to get the exact dimensions of the 12's in relation to their spacing from each other and the sweet spot, but the center channel will be approximately eight feet from the primary seating position -- maybe a bit further.

You don't always want your speakers directly to the side of the TV. Separation is a good thing, and creates a much larger soundstage. Ideally, your speakers and seating position should create an equilateral triangle. For instance, if your seating area is 84" away from the center point of your front soundstage, your two front channels should be about 84" apart.

I totally understand this; and I get that the separation can create a much larger soundstage -- the thing is, when they go too far apart, it can take you completely out of the film as the side action will seem to come from way beyond the proper "virtual space" in the film...

If you have the speakers smack up against the side of the TV, you're getting a drastically reduced soundstage, and really not using your surround sound to it's full potential.

Well, this perspective is very good to know, as the 12's are up against the outer pieces of the wall unit, putting them a good distance from the display...

edit-You said that the distance from seating area to TV is about 8 feet, so you'd want the speakers to be approximately 8 feet apart. A little bit more/less as needed would be perfectly fine as well. The important thing, is that each speaker is approximately the same distance away from the center point.

Let me double check my exact measurements...thanks Curt.

Menasor

If your speakers are too far away from each other, you can always toe in towards the primary seated position. This is one way to correct sound with speakers placed too far apart. Your speakers should probably be maximum as far apart from each other as you are from each one of them (imagine an equilateral triangle). This would put the primary listening position 30 degrees off axis from each speaker. Generally with most speakers, you get significant treble rolloff when you go farther than 30 degrees off axis, which is why you don't want them too far apart. Too close together is also a bad thing; sound gets cluttered together and you lose sound stage width and separation.

I say if you're about 9-10feet from the fronts, they should be between 7-10 feet apart from each other.

steveinaz

Mike
If you lose some center fill due to the distance of the speakers, experiment with more toe-in.

Mike LoManaco

Thanks Guys, Very Much.

I have considered toe-in, but the thing is, we have agreed that the RTi12 towers should be flush against the sides of the wall unit for appearance sake; I promised the wife we could leave 'em like this after she hated the look of my R20's on their Sanus stands in our last place, toed-in.

I may have to do this for tonal reasons, as you all suggested, though.

Now that I am looking at that room more, we're around 10 feet or so from the center channel position and the screen -- I think the mains are further than that from each other, but I need to double check with a tape measure. I know they're around two or so feet from the edges of the TV to where they're positioned off to the sides of the wall unit...THAT'S what I was most worried about -- how far they were on the left and right of the screen.

Montoya

I have my rti-12 setup at 10 feet apart from each other they have good imaging even when pointing forward with no toe in. I found that as long as the front face where te drivers are extend in front of the cabinet face they are good.

domflane

Don't worry so much Mike . . fire those monsters up and see if you hear a problem. You probably won't. If you do, a little toe in will do wonders. The RTi12's are massive speakers with a big sound, so let your ears decide. As long as they're not 30' apart, you'll be fine. Have you listened to them yet?

comfortablycurt

Mike, you'll be just fine with them two feet from the edges of the screen. Personally, I wouldn't want them to be much closer than that to the screen, or else the sound stage starts to close in.

I know you mentioned not wanting to, but playing around with toe in is essential with nearly any loud speaker. I've always found the RTi's to work best when the tweeters are firing roughly 6 inches to the sides of your head, and intersecting at a point about 2 feet or so behind you. All rooms/setups are different though, so your case may be different.

Sherardp

domflane wrote: »

Don't worry so much Mike . . fire those monsters up and see if you hear a problem. You probably won't. If you do, a little toe in will do wonders. The RTi12's are massive speakers with a big sound, so let your ears decide. As long as they're not 30' apart, you'll be fine. Have you listened to them yet?

+1 on this. Definitely pull them out into the room some, they will love you for it. I pulled mine out into the room more and they more "alive" sort of speak.

Mike LoManaco

Montoya wrote: »

I have my rti-12 setup at 10 feet apart from each other they have good imaging even when pointing forward with no toe in. I found that as long as the front face where te drivers are extend in front of the cabinet face they are good.

Thanks Much, Montoya.

I think I may be about 10 feet apart as well; I need to take exact measurements.

Mike LoManaco

domflane wrote: »

Don't worry so much Mike . . fire those monsters up and see if you hear a problem. You probably won't. If you do, a little toe in will do wonders. The RTi12's are massive speakers with a big sound, so let your ears decide. As long as they're not 30' apart, you'll be fine. Have you listened to them yet?

Thanks 'Dom!

No, I have not listened to them; unfortunately, the wall unit we ordered had a problem -- one side of the unit was shipped back because there was some damage, and this was the side I was going to put the receiver and Blu-ray player behind, so I have to wait to set everything up. :mad:

But as soon as I can, I will fire these bad boys up and report back.

Mike LoManaco

comfortablycurt wrote: »

Mike, you'll be just fine with them two feet from the edges of the screen. Personally, I wouldn't want them to be much closer than that to the screen, or else the sound stage starts to close in.

I know you mentioned not wanting to, but playing around with toe in is essential with nearly any loud speaker. I've always found the RTi's to work best when the tweeters are firing roughly 6 inches to the sides of your head, and intersecting at a point about 2 feet or so behind you. All rooms/setups are different though, so your case may be different.

As always, thanks Curt...

This measurement may be more than two feet from the edges of the screen -- I need to double check with physical measurements, as I have been saying; trying to find the d**n tape measure!

Mike LoManaco

Sherardp wrote: »

+1 on this. Definitely pull them out into the room some, they will love you for it. I pulled mine out into the room more and they more "alive" sort of speak.

Thanks, Sher...

By "into the room more" do you mean toed-in towards the listening area more?

comfortablycurt

Mike,

Just so you know, you're breaking audiophile protocol. The proper setup be damned!! Get that gear setup on the floor if you have to! Just get it fired up and get your ears on those 12's!!:D

For future reference, with all future upgrades, you're supposed to take the day off of work, send the wife out shopping and spend the entire day listening to your new toys.;)

Mike LoManaco

comfortablycurt wrote: »

Mike,

Just so you know, you're breaking audiophile protocol. The proper setup be damned!! Get that gear setup on the floor if you have to! Just get it fired up and get your ears on those 12's!!:D

For future reference, with all future upgrades, you're supposed to take the day off of work, send the wife out shopping and spend the entire day listening to your new toys.;)

LOL...LOL...I think I'm gonna adhere to that rule, Curt!

What helps is that I work from home, so I can always go up and down the stairs between my hectic freelance schedule...from the HT to the office, from the office to the HT...and on and on...:D

Mike LoManaco

Looking at the wall unit once again just now, those side pieces may be more than just two feet from the edges of the screen -- I mean the 12's seem really out there in terms of "off to the sides"...:o

Poee7R

Montoya wrote: »

I found that as long as the front face where te drivers are extend in front of the cabinet face they are good.

This is very important, to any soundstage. A large entertainment center, tv, rack, etc, in between your speakers will cause more harm than you probably realise. Getting the speakers to sit forward of the setup, will give your soundstage coherency. Not to mention speakers need room to breath, so being away from the sides of the wall unit is a good thing, for the sound anyway.

Depending on the shape/size of your room, and the distance between the speakers, you may have to toe in a bit.

Grats on the new speaker's, the 12's are awesome.


Dave

Mike LoManaco

Thanks, Poe.

Some of this which you mention here concerns me greatly, so let me address one at a time...

Poee7R wrote: »

This is very important, to any soundstage. A large entertainment center, tv, rack, etc, in between your speakers will cause more harm than you probably realise.

This isn't good news, as I'm kind of forced to use this entertainment center/wall unit in the HT room we're doing...:(

Getting the speakers to sit forward of the setup, will give your soundstage coherency. Not to mention speakers need room to breath, so being away from the sides of the wall unit is a good thing, for the sound anyway.

So, the speakers, you're saying (as well as the other member quoted in your reply) should be pulled out a bit from their positions so the grilles are a little "forward" from the edge of the wall unit?

Depending on the shape/size of your room, and the distance between the speakers, you may have to toe in a bit.

I wish toe-in was an option; I'll try and see what I can do...:o

Grats on the new speaker's, the 12's are awesome.


Dave

Thanks a lot, Dave...I'm lookin' forward to firin' them up and lettin' everyone know how they sound!

Todd Lee

Just hook them up and listen to them already..... You could answer your own questions with your own ears.

cnh

Mike,

When I bought my first set of Polks....M70s. I took them down to the Livingroom immediately....I had giant towers in there already..but that did not stop me from pulling the speakers out toward the listening position and hooking up almost everything I owned...AVR-wise--one at a time. Spent the entire day fussing with them and then took them upstairs to my office.

Curt has already warned you about all the rules you are breaking.

I second the idea of pulling your speakers away from the wall behind them. In many cases that will open up the mids and give you a cleaner sound. You need to experiment.

So get cracking!

cnh

AsSiMiLaTeD

You know what to do, now just do it. Pull the speakers up enough to where the grills are at least flush with the front of the cabinet and toe them in a little bit.

The optimal setup is an equilateral triangle between your seating position and the speakers with some toe in on the speakers. The amount of toe is will depend on other factors, but in general I've found that having them pointed to your outside left and right sides works best. I'm hearing that your wife doesn't want them toed in, but I cannot comprehend that comment so I can't comment on it. If she's really that picky then perhaps something as demonstrative as the RTi12 weren't the best choice to begin with...

Go ahead and hook them up the way you'd intented and listen a bit. Then pull them away from the wall and toe them in a bit and give it another listen - report back when you've discovered how much better they sound that way and let us know how you've convinced your wife to 'allow' you to do a 'proper' setup

Erik Tracy

Sounds like a compromise is needed...the wife gets her entertainment center and hubby should get to toe in the speakers and move them slightly forward...then you both get what you want....in the HT room.

Mike LoManaco

LOL...

I hear all you guys...

I know I've violated about 100 audiophile rules here; I promise I will redeem myself in the future...:o

Well, I had the guys here today to hook up and wire my SpeakerCraft surrounds in the ceilings, so I am just waiting for the other side of the wall unit to come -- but, if I follow all your advice, I should really crack open the receiver, Blu-ray player and cables and begin firing up those 12's...temptation....temptation...:eek:

Still, though, on a more serious note, I think I have a LOT of space between the two mains, especially compared to the distance from the sweet spot to the screen and center channel -- so I don't think we're dealing with an equilateral triangle situation here fellas, unfortunately. The distance from the screen to the sweet spot is about 9 or 10 feet, and there has to be more between the 12's...but, as I have been saying, the biggest problem I forsee is the distance between the edges of the screen and where the 12's are placed to the sides of the wall unit -- I'm fearing this is going to take the onscreen action WAY out of the front soundstage to appear diffused and weird...

I won't know until all is hooked up, but it may come down to nothing but toe-in for a solution, in order to pull the front stage back in...

Thanks for all your help so far; I appreciate it.

AsSiMiLaTeD

the biggest problem I forsee is the distance between the edges of the screen and where the 12's are placed to the sides of the wall unit

I still don't think I'm fully understanding you here, are you saying that you think the mains are too far away from the TV?

Proximity to the sides of the TV isn't as big of a deal as how far back your speakers sit (I'm not even sure if this is an issue or not in your case). If your speakers are too far apart, you can use toe in to compensate, up to a certain point, if youre 10 ft away and the speakers are 30 ft apart then you're using the wrong room for your HT, doesn't sound like that's your issue though). If your speakers are 15 ft apart, just toe them in a little more. You can get away with this because you're using Polk speakers, if you were using a pair of Maggies or MLs you'd be screwed.

Now, on the other hand, if you've got a large object between your speakers it's going to kill your imaging and soundstage, and there's not much you can do to combat that. Think of it this way, you should be able to take a long string and put it in the center of one of your drivers and then pull it straight across to the same spot on the same drive in the opposite speaker. You should be able to do this with the string not touching anything but the speakers, if you're having to pull the string AROUND something like the front of TV or cabinet, then you need to pull your speakers out from the wall.

Basically, you want a clean 'line of sight' from one speaker to the next. Ideally, you'd actually have that back even a few more inches if they're toed in much, but a clean line of sight would be the minimum I'd want.

Mike LoManaco

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

I still don't think I'm fully understanding you here, are you saying that you think the mains are too far away from the TV?

Yes, on each side.

Proximity to the sides of the TV isn't as big of a deal as how far back your speakers sit (I'm not even sure if this is an issue or not in your case). If your speakers are too far apart, you can use toe in to compensate, up to a certain point, if youre 10 ft away and the speakers are 30 ft apart then you're using the wrong room for your HT, doesn't sound like that's your issue though). If your speakers are 15 ft apart, just toe them in a little more. You can get away with this because you're using Polk speakers, if you were using a pair of Maggies or MLs you'd be screwed.

As I have been saying, I need to get physical readings on the distances, but they seem extremely far apart from each other on either side of the wall unit/entertainment center, as well as far from the screen itself, on either side.

Now, on the other hand, if you've got a large object between your speakers it's going to kill your imaging and soundstage, and there's not much you can do to combat that. Think of it this way, you should be able to take a long string and put it in the center of one of your drivers and then pull it straight across to the same spot on the same drive in the opposite speaker. You should be able to do this with the string not touching anything but the speakers, if you're having to pull the string AROUND something like the front of TV or cabinet, then you need to pull your speakers out from the wall.

Basically, you want a clean 'line of sight' from one speaker to the next. Ideally, you'd actually have that back even a few more inches if they're toed in much, but a clean line of sight would be the minimum I'd want.

Well, there is a clean line of sight, as I'll have the speakers right up to the edge of the wall unit sides (the grilles of the 12's that is), but there is a huge object between the 12's, that being this pretty big wall unit we purchased for the main wall in this family/living/den/HT room.

Menasor

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

Yes, on each side.



As I have been saying, I need to get physical readings on the distances, but they seem extremely far apart from each other on either side of the wall unit/entertainment center, as well as far from the screen itself, on either side.



Well, there is a clean line of sight, as I'll have the speakers right up to the edge of the wall unit sides (the grilles of the 12's that is), but there is a huge object between the 12's, that being this pretty big wall unit we purchased for the main wall in this family/living/den/HT room.

no pics = no more talk!