Speaker level "better" than LFE connections for 2.1?
mdaudioguy
Posts: 5,165
Everything's good with my system at the moment, with one exception that's making me crazy. HT is great - 5.1, 7.1 all modes work well. 2-channel has become extremely satisfying, as long as my AVR is in pure direct mode, however, I'd like to incorporate my subwoofer in 2-channel listening, but my 2.1 configuration just plain sucks!!
What comes out of the sub is fine, but it's the integration of the sub and my mains that frustrates me. When I switch off pure direct and go into 2.1 stereo mode, it's like the midrange and just below go into hiding.
I'd love to run the fronts as large and have the sub feel like it's a direct extension of my mains. The funny thing is, I recently listened to some 5.1 DVD-Audio, and the integration of the sub and other speakers was seemingly perfect. One of my discs is a 2-channel CD on the flip side, so I flipped it and BAM!, midrange gone, or at least dull, lifeless, and boring - until I selected pure direct. The only problem is that I have some music that could benefit from the lower extension of my sub.
Does anyone think a speaker level sub connection will help?
What comes out of the sub is fine, but it's the integration of the sub and my mains that frustrates me. When I switch off pure direct and go into 2.1 stereo mode, it's like the midrange and just below go into hiding.
I'd love to run the fronts as large and have the sub feel like it's a direct extension of my mains. The funny thing is, I recently listened to some 5.1 DVD-Audio, and the integration of the sub and other speakers was seemingly perfect. One of my discs is a 2-channel CD on the flip side, so I flipped it and BAM!, midrange gone, or at least dull, lifeless, and boring - until I selected pure direct. The only problem is that I have some music that could benefit from the lower extension of my sub.
Does anyone think a speaker level sub connection will help?
Post edited by mdaudioguy on
Comments
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mdaudioguy wrote: »Everything's good with my system at the moment, with one exception that's making me crazy. HT is great - 5.1, 7.1 all modes work well. 2-channel has become extremely satisfying, as long as my AVR is in pure direct mode, however, I'd like to incorporate my subwoofer in 2-channel listening, but my 2.1 configuration just plain sucks!!
What comes out of the sub is fine, but it's the integration of the sub and my mains that frustrates me. When I switch off pure direct and go into 2.1 stereo mode, it's like the midrange and just below go into hiding.
I'd love to run the fronts as large and have the sub feel like it's a direct extension of my mains. The funny thing is, I recently listened to some 5.1 DVD-Audio, and the integration of the sub and other speakers was seemingly perfect. One of my discs is a 2-channel CD on the flip side, so I flipped it and BAM!, midrange gone, or at least dull, lifeless, and boring - until I selected pure direct. The only problem is that I have some music that could benefit from the lower extension of my sub.
Does anyone think a speaker level sub connection will help?
I run my sub both ways:
LFE for movies
Line level for 2-channel/music listening
My sub is situated such that the cable connections are easily accessible and I've run both an LFE cable and Line level to my sub.
I do a manual swap between the two at the sub when I power up my rig for whatever I'm in the mood for.
Mostly I listen to music, so I have the line level cables hooked up.
I've saved two configurations in my AVR:
1)Movies: Fronts=small, Bass=Sub, xover=80Hz
2)Music: Fronts=Large, Bass=Fronts, xover=NA - and Pure Direct mode
It is my opinion that I get better sub integration for music as I can use the sub's continous potentiometer control for dialing in the high cutoff freq for the sub.
When I listen to music, I recall the configuration for music in Pure Direct, and because I'm using the pre-outs from my AVR, the sub gets the full audio feed.
When I watch movies with all that 'scary LFE' - I hook up the sub to LFE, recall the config for movies, sip my koolaid knowing I am safe from overloading my amp with dangerous LFE and let my sub handle all that deep scary LFE stuff.
I've tried the LFE way for music - setting levels, xover frequency, etc - just doesn't do it for me.
H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music. -
Erik - Sounds like you prefer speaker level for music. What about that config don't you like for HT?
Bluefox - I hadn't considered line level. Is the effect essentially the same as speaker level? I'm assuming I'd have to split the front pre-out. Both L&R, I guess? -
I know exactly what you mean. If I switch my receiver out of "pure direct" mode, the sound quality and channel separation seems to suffer noticeably. So I can't apply any tone controls to my setup because doing so would require me to use the "stereo" setting and not "pure direct". Although it's not a huge deal because I feel tone controls are mostly evil and my room is sound treated so I'm perfectly happy anyway.
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I'm running fronts full range and using line level connections - two Y splitters from my Onk. My sub is crossed over at 40 hz. Integration was not easy and I'm still not sure I have it just right despite the fact that Lsi25s let you tweak the woofer volume and crossover.MAIN: Polk Lsi9s; Polk PSW505; Lsic (in box); Onkyo SR-875; Parasound 2250; Cambridge Audio 740C; LG BD370
OFFICE: Polk Lsi7; REL T3; HK 3490; CA 840W; Onkyo C-S5VL
BENCHED: CS20; OWM3s -
mdaudioguy wrote: »Erik - Sounds like you prefer speaker level for music. What about that config don't you like for HT?
Bluefox - I hadn't considered line level. Is the effect essentially the same as speaker level? I'm assuming I'd have to split the front pre-out. Both L&R, I guess?
Oh - I'm ok with my setup for HT - I have religiously followed the rules of HT and have set my fronts=small to make sure my poor ol' Carver 400 w/chnl amp is not being strained to reproduce deep/loud LFE, I have set the xover freq to the prescribed 80Hz so as not to tax my woefully inadequate bookshelves from trying to reproduce any frequency that could be considered bass (since we all know ONLY subs can do that), and I have avoided the sonic dangers of trying to integrate bass from both sub and mains which is considered an HT no-no.
And for movies - it works just fine.
For music - nope, not for me.
Line level just sounds better to me: full mid-bass up to midrange, seamless sonics for bass, warmer, etc
Alas, I do confess to sinning - sometimes I watch movies w/ my sub hooked up line level and my fronts=large cuz I was too lazy to swap the LFE cable in :eek: (And...it sounds really good, too).
Yes - I know - I live dangerously and on the edge - all that scary LFE straining my amp and my wee bookshelves thumping along trying to make deep bass, but be kind - I do try.
H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music. -
I use an RCA switch for this. one I used to have when red, white, yellow were all there was and you had 2 or more sources.
I have my lfe on one line and LR line level on another. I just push a button when I want to go from LFE to line level.
I did this so I could have my sub play via the line level for my 2 chanel SACD discs, and LFE for everything else.pop
media room: Lsi25 mains driven by an audiosource amp300, LSi9's driven by another amp300, LsiC drivin by an audiosourcAmp200, Lsi7 rear channels driven by receiver - Yamaha 863, Panamax 5300, epson 6100 w/ 106" elite cinatension2 screen, HPz555 media center, oppo 980, techniques SLbd3 turntable,xbox and ps3,
living room: VM30 mains driven by a niles 2125, VM20 center and VM10 surrounds, velodyne dsp10, yamaha rxv661, cambridge audio dvd89, panamax5300, philips 42" plasma -
Speaker level worked best for me when I ran a sub for 2ch. Don't go through the x-over in the sub's built in filter. Instead, it should be arranged in a "tri-wire" set up if your mains are already bi-wired.
I find that this set up gave me the best integration. The character of your amp will go through to the sub. I'm sure it was a better phase match as well.
Won't hurt to try. -
Your description suggests the speakers and sub are out of phase. Have you tried optimizing the phase between the two to see if this is the issue?
- If there are any distance settings in the 2.1 mode on the pre/pro in the receiver; try changing the values and see what happens.
- The MFW-15 has Phase Control: Variable 0-180. Have you tried changing this value to match the phase between the sub and speakers?
Arthur SchopenhauerAll truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed and third, it is accepted as self evident. -
My denon lets me decide how I want pure direct to operate, with or without sub.:)Two Channel-SDA SRS 1.2tl's,modded, Cambridge Audio 851w amps(2),Cambridge 851e pre, VPI Scout 1.1 tt, Moon audio phono pre,oppo bd105.
HT-Denon avr3808ci,Carver a-753x,Panasonic ae4000 projector,120" screen,ps3,wii console w/full rockband,Panamax conditioner,dbx120 subharmonic synthesizer,jvc dvd-a player, Polk RTi12 mains,Polk CSiA6 centre, Energy ES-18xl sub,two custom 10" powered subs, Def Tech bp2x surrounds(4),Paradigm monitors-rear(2) -
Your description suggests the speakers and sub are out of phase. Have you tried optimizing the phase between the two to see if this is the issue?
- If there are any distance settings in the 2.1 mode on the pre/pro in the receiver; try changing the values and see what happens.
- The MFW-15 has “Phase Control: Variable 0-180”. Have you tried changing this value to match the phase between the sub and speakers?
The distances set by the AVR were spot-on. I have fooled with the phase control a bit, but it doesn't seem to make much difference. I calibrated everything with an SPL meter, and my bass is remarkably even across all seating positions, despite the room being very lively. I'm ready to try the line level connection.
P.S. Is that a Camaro or a Firebird? Yours or your neighbors? -
I'm not bi-wired, and I'm not sure I understand your tri-wire concept. Are you suggesting that I don't run my mains through the sub?Speaker level worked best for me when I ran a sub for 2ch. Don't go through the x-over in the sub's built in filter. Instead, it should be arranged in a "tri-wire" set up if your mains are already bi-wired.
I find that this set up gave me the best integration. The character of your amp will go through to the sub. I'm sure it was a better phase match as well.
Won't hurt to try. -
I use an RCA switch for this. one I used to have when red, white, yellow were all there was and you had 2 or more sources.
I have my lfe on one line and LR line level on another. I just push a button when I want to go from LFE to line level.
I did this so I could have my sub play via the line level for my 2 chanel SACD discs, and LFE for everything else.
If I like the results, I'm looking for a switch too. I think Erik also might consider one. -
mdaudioguy wrote: »If I like the results, I'm looking for a switch too. I think Erik also might consider one.
Possibly - anything to make life easier.
I think it would be a nice feature on a sub to have the switch 'built in' to select between LFE or Line Level.
I believe most subs will simply 'sum' any simultaneous signals presented at their inputs (at least my Epik does that as I emailed them to ask).
This makes it easier to initially connect a sub as most 'normal' folks only connect their sub one way (mostly LFE).
Deviants, like myself, would be happier if we had a choice and be able to toggle back and forth between the inputs.
H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music. -
mdaudioguy wrote: »I'm not bi-wired, and I'm not sure I understand your tri-wire concept. Are you suggesting that I don't run my mains through the sub?
Yes. Run 2 sets of speaker cables from the L and R outputs. One set goes straight to your speakers and the other set goes to your sub's "speaker level" input. Mains set to 'large' and subwoofer 'off'. -
Yes. Run 2 sets of speaker cables from the L and R outputs. One set goes straight to your speakers and the other set goes to your sub's "speaker level" input. Mains set to 'large' and subwoofer 'off'.
This way there would effectively be no "crossover," correct? Although the sub's crossover control would still act as a low pass, I guess. I'd just have to find the right balance. -
Yeah, you'll have to find the correct x-over point and phase. Pretty much free to try. How low do your mains go?
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mdaudioguy wrote: »The distances set by the AVR were spot-on. I have fooled with the phase control a bit, but it doesn't seem to make much difference. I calibrated everything with an SPL meter, and my bass is remarkably even across all seating positions, despite the room being very lively. I'm ready to try the line level connection.
P.S. Is that a Camaro or a Firebird? Yours or your neighbors?
I could not find a manual on the MWF-15 sub so I will assume it has gain, continuously variable phase, L+R line in/out , an active crossover AND dedicated LFE input as noted in the product description. If the sub does not have all these IO connections, this will not work.
If you want to use the sub for two channel listening, try reconfiguring the system like this:
- pre/pro L+R line out to sub L+R line in
- sub L+R line out to power amp L+R line in
- continue to use the pre/pro LFE line out to sub LFE line in
- for multichannel, set the L+R as full range (or large or whatever its called) and all others appropriate to speaker size
- use pure direct mode for listening to music
Integrate the sub into the system in pure direct mode by adjusting the gain and phase. Then configure the sub for multichannel use.
Must be a neighbours car as I wouldnt own either.
Arthur SchopenhauerAll truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed and third, it is accepted as self evident.
