PS3 question

Systems

Hello

Bear with me as this is my first experience using HDMI for sound..been using all optical.

I recently got a different receiver for my gaming room:

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_580TXS507B/Onkyo-TX-SR507.html?tp=179

. I have an original release PS3 that I'm trying to get setup on that receiver. I couldn't get the Dolby digital to light up on the receiver till I changed the setting to Bitstream from Linear PCM....a little confused about that one...

After I did that I went through the sound setting's HDMI setup and am not seeing any DD TrueHD or DTS-HD options and I do see them on the PS3 Slim that we have hooked up on our Home Theater setup.

Did the original release PS3 not have TrueHD or DTS-HD capabilites?

Any other advice would be appreciated

Thanks

Erik Tracy

Lorthos wrote: »

Hello

Bear with me as this is my first experience using HDMI for sound..been using all optical.

I recently got a different receiver for my gaming room:

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_580TXS507B/Onkyo-TX-SR507.html?tp=179

. I have an original release PS3 that I'm trying to get setup on that receiver. I couldn't get the Dolby digital to light up on the receiver till I changed the setting to Bitstream from Linear PCM....a little confused about that one...

After I did that I went through the sound setting's HDMI setup and am not seeing any DD TrueHD or DTS-HD options and I do see them on the PS3 Slim that we have hooked up on our Home Theater setup.

Did the original release PS3 not have TrueHD or DTS-HD capabilites?

Any other advice would be appreciated

Thanks

The original PS3's do not have the ability to bitstream via HDMI - all audio decoding will be done internal in the PS3 and sent as PCM to your AVR - you will not be able to see any audio codec lights on your AVR.

Systems

Erik Tracy wrote: »

The original PS3's do not have the ability to bitstream via HDMI - all audio decoding will be done internal in the PS3 and sent as PCM to your AVR - you will not be able to see any audio codec lights on your AVR.

Hmmm, well theres an option on the menu under Video settings/BD Audio Output Format(HDMI) to change it to either Bitstream or Linear PCM.

Like I said when I changed it to Bitstream the DD did light up on the receiver and it showed 5.1. It just didn't have the truehd by the DD.

Erik Tracy

Lorthos wrote: »

Hmmm, well theres an option on the menu under Video settings/BD Audio Output Format(HDMI) to change it to either Bitstream or Linear PCM.

Like I said when I changed it to Bitstream the DD did light up on the receiver and it showed 5.1. It just didn't have the truehd by the DD.

Correct - but the original PS3 still won't bitstream the advanced lossless audio.

Systems

Erik Tracy wrote: »

Correct - but the original PS3 still won't bitstream the advanced lossless audio.

Okay, all I wanted, kinda figured that but just was making sure I wasn't missing something. No big deal, am just using it for gaming anyway...

Thanks!!

Erik Tracy

Lorthos wrote: »

Okay, all I wanted, kinda figured that but just was making sure I wasn't missing something. No big deal, am just using it for gaming anyway...

Thanks!!

I also checked on my kids' orginal PS3 w/ the latest firmware - I see the bitstream option but nothing for the True HD or DTSMA lossless.

The new slimline PS3s are supposed to be able to bitstream those.

Since you have both - you could hook up both the original and slimline and do a direct A/B comparison of what sounds better: PS3 orginal sending PCM or the slimline bitstreaming and the AVR decoding?

cnh

Good idea...the general opinion is that there is no discernible difference between internal decoding to PCM out and bitstream direct...but only your ears can decide...as for me...

I have two players a PS3 and a Pioneer that can bitstream..I, personally, do not hear much of a difference between the two on the 'same' AVR.

cnh

Systems

Well, after messing around with it some more and doing some experimenting, just with the original PS3, to me, the bitstream seemed more "vivid", is what comes to mind....

I'll maybe try the Slim tomorrow....

Systems

I still don't quite understand what the point of Linear PCM is....

Erik Tracy

Lorthos wrote: »

I still don't quite understand what the point of Linear PCM is....

It's the native format that your AVR uses while the audio is in the digital domain before being converted back to analog.

Think of PCM as the 'unzipped' version of the audio.

You can't work on a word document if the file is still 'zipped up' which is what DTSMAHD and True HD is - these audio codecs take PCM and 'compress' the audio to 'zip' it up so it takes up less space on the bluray disc.

So, either your PS3 or your AVR has to "unzip" the audio to PCM so that your AVR can process the audio and then convert it back to analog to send it to your speakers.

Your AVR can not use the bitstreamed audio because it is an encoded/compressed version of PCM.

Systems

Okay, think I got it now....I'm going back to VHS:)

Erik Tracy wrote: »

It's the native format that your AVR uses while the audio is in the digital domain before being converted back to analog.

Think of PCM as the 'unzipped' version of the audio.

You can't work on a word document if the file is still 'zipped up' which is what DTSMAHD and True HD is - these audio codecs take PCM and 'compress' the audio to 'zip' it up so it takes up less space on the bluray disc.

So, either your PS3 or your AVR has to "unzip" the audio to PCM so that your AVR can process the audio and then convert it back to analog to send it to your speakers.

Your AVR can not use the bitstreamed audio because it is an encoded/compressed version of PCM.

Erik Tracy

Lorthos wrote: »

Okay, think I got it now....I'm going back to VHS:)

Super Beta is better!

Fongolio

Lorthos, with the original PS3 as long as you a newer firmware update the player does yes, in fact decode the HD audio signals. When it is set to PCM it passes the already decoded signal to your receiver where because the signal is already decoded the Dolby HD lights and the DTS HD lights won't light up. It is however playing the HD signals. Maybe you already understood that but it didn't seem clear in the previous posts.

Erik Tracy

Fongolio wrote: »

Lorthos, with the original PS3 as long as you a newer firmware update the player does yes, in fact decode the HD audio signals. When it is set to PCM it passes the already decoded signal to your receiver where because the signal is already decoded the Dolby HD lights and the DTS HD lights won't light up. It is however playing the HD signals. Maybe you already understood that but it didn't seem clear in the previous posts.

Are you sure?

My kid's PS3 is up to f/w v3.15 and it does not support bitstreaming HD audio, just standard DTS and DD.

Is there a newer f/w release for the orginal PS3?

Systems

Fongolio wrote: »

Lorthos, with the original PS3 as long as you a newer firmware update the player does yes, in fact decode the HD audio signals. When it is set to PCM it passes the already decoded signal to your receiver where because the signal is already decoded the Dolby HD lights and the DTS HD lights won't light up. It is however playing the HD signals. Maybe you already understood that but it didn't seem clear in the previous posts.

No I didn't understand that, I was basing it on: that if the DD-truehd lights weren't on that it wasn't playing those signals, period. And thats the reason I changed it from PCM to Bitstream is when I did that the DD lit up...but not the DD-truehd and that's where I was confused...I see what your saying though.

Erik Tracy wrote: »

Are you sure?

My kid's PS3 is up to f/w v3.15 and it does not support bitstreaming HD audio, just standard DTS and DD.

Is there a newer f/w release for the orginal PS3?

Okay, hes talking PCM and your talking Bitstreaming...I checked my firmware and its 3.15

Heres a good thread I found online too, kinda clears things up also...

http://boardsus.playstation.com/t5/PlayStation-3-General/PS3-BITSTREAM-not-support-Dolby-True-HD-amp-DTS-Master-Audio/m-p/38462724

Erik Tracy

Lorthos wrote: »

No I didn't understand that, I was basing it on: that if the DD-truehd lights weren't on that it wasn't playing those signals, period. And thats the reason I changed it from PCM to Bitstream is when I did that the DD lit up...but not the DD-truehd and that's where I was confused...I see what your saying though.



Okay, hes talking PCM and your talking Bitstreaming...I checked my firmware and its 3.15

So, I may be wrong - not the first time or the last, but from what I've been able to upload to my original PS3 and read on various forums is that the original PS3 can't bitstream the HD formats for DTS or DD to your AVR - so, if that is true then you won't see those lights come on your AVR.

You would only see those lights come on if you are bitstreaming the 'zipped' audio from your player to your AVR and the AVR does the decoding to PCM.

Your original PS3 would instead be decoding the audio and sending the 'unzipped' audio via PCM to your AVR, but you would still be 'hearing' the HD equivalent on your speakers either way.

Fongolio

Erik Tracy wrote: »

Your original PS3 would instead be decoding the audio and sending the 'unzipped' audio via PCM to your AVR, but you would still be 'hearing' the HD equivalent on your speakers either way.

Bingo!! That's exactly what's happening. It was over a year ago that the firmware upgrade made all PS3's have HD audio capability. Unfortunately they did not design any clear way of knowing when it was actually being implemented. I have an original style 80 gig and I also have a receiver that can decode HD audio. Your are correct Erik it does not pass the bitstream HD signal but yes does in fact decode it on board the PS3 and passes the decoded signal as a PCM signal which your receiver will NOT see as an HD signal but will for sure play it in full lossless resolution.

Systems

Fongolio wrote: »

Bingo!! That's exactly what's happening. It was over a year ago that the firmware upgrade made all PS3's have HD audio capability. Unfortunately they did not design any clear way of knowing when it was actually being implemented.

Therein lies the rub....

Wow, glad we got that cleared up, thanks for all the info!! Really helped!!

Systems

Okay, one last thing and I'll quit bugging you guys:) Does this hold true for gaming discs also?

Fongolio

Lorthos wrote: »

Okay, one last thing and I'll quit bugging you guys:) Does this hold true for gaming discs also?

I will say yes, provided the codec is available in the game and LPCM is the output for the PS3.

bruss

Fongolio wrote: »

Bingo!! That's exactly what's happening. It was over a year ago that the firmware upgrade made all PS3's have HD audio capability. Unfortunately they did not design any clear way of knowing when it was actually being implemented.

I just hit the display button on my remote for the ps3 and it tells you what audio format it is sending out and at what speed

cheddar

Fongolio wrote: »

It was over a year ago that the firmware upgrade made all PS3's have HD audio capability.

Actually the ps3 was always able to internally decode and play two of the three lossless blu-ray formats (TrueHD and uncompressed LPCM). The firmware came out to allow the ps3 to become one of the first blu-ray players that could decode DTS-HD MA as well. This was before there were any AVRs that could accept a lossless bitstream. Now of course, with all the lossless bitstream AVRs, everyone wants their little lights to light up. But old school, internal player decoding and sending out as PCM was the only game in town. It's still a great solution with current components.

cheddar

Fongolio wrote: »

Unfortunately they did not design any clear way of knowing when it was actually being implemented.

Just press 'select' on the ps3 controller when any media is playing and you will get a wealth of information on the current track including real-time video bitrate, audio bitrate, and what the audio track format is. Couldn't be any clearer than having the audio format in the center top of your screen overlay.

cheddar

Lorthos wrote: »

Okay, one last thing and I'll quit bugging you guys:) Does this hold true for gaming discs also?

Some of the best sounding games like Uncharted 2 are in 7.1 LPCM. Try not to get too hung up on TrueHD or DTS-HD MA as the ultimate in audio formats. They just digitally squeeze the original PCM file down so it takes up less space on the disk. The original PCM track is where the quality is, provided it was mastered well in the first place.

cheddar

Lorthos wrote: »

Well, after messing around with it some more and doing some experimenting, just with the original PS3, to me, the bitstream seemed more "vivid", is what comes to mind....

I'll maybe try the Slim tomorrow....

If you are bitreaming from an older ps3, you are listening to an old Dolby or DTS track as those are the only movie tracks an older ps3 can bitstream. However, on the same blu-ray disk, the internally decoded lossless track via PCM should sound more dynamic with deeper bass, etc. compared with a vanilla Dolby track or the DTS core contained on blu-rays as back-ups. If you find that the bass is thin with lossless compared with vanilla Dolby or DTS, it could be a problem with your AVR configuration. Movie sound tracks have their LFE (.1 of 5.1 surround) recorded -10db. With PCM inputs, sometimes AVRs automatically add the necessary 10db boost. Sometimes they don't. If the bass is thin with PCM tracks, you need to manually adjust the LFE trim in the AVR to provide a +10db boost.

Systems

So....I guess what all this boils down to is to just select Linear PCM in the settings and forget about it...let the PS3 do its thing, let the avr accept what its given, and enjoy the show.

Systems

Well I did some more experimenting with the PS3 slim thats hooked up to my Denon AVR-2802 via Optical. Was using Pandorum for testing.

I selected Linear PCM and the output display via the PS3 showed DD TrueHD and the receiver showed PLC II.

I then selected bitstream and the output display via the PS3 showed DD and the receiver showed DD.

The difference between the two was night and day, the bitstream setting just blew the Linear PCM setting out of the water. Just much more depth, clarity and loudness. I had to turn the volume down on the bitstream and up on the Linear PCM.


I tried the same thing again on the original ps3 via HDMI into the Onkyo just to double check. Showed the same thing via the PS3 display output and the reciever with each setting. It wasn't night and day but the bitstream still sounded better on that setup too...

I know theres a ton of variations between everybodys systems, room, and ears but in my case am going to leave it on bitstream on the Denon and Linear PCM, with some fine tuning, on the Onkyo..

Thanks again for the input

cheddar

You can't do full lossless PCM surround over optical. You'll need to use hdmi to bitstream lossless surround to a bitstream capable AVR or the already decoded PCM to an AVR. If the Denon was receiving a stereo PCM signal converted from the full surround lossless track, then the AVR was applying its processing to convert this to surround sound. In any case, you weren't listening to the full lossless surround track with the slim since it was limited by the optical connection.

If receiving a PCM signal via hdmi with the ps3 and Onkyo, the AVR should display multichannel or some such thing. And if you still hear that bitstream old school DD and DTS sounds better than ps3 decoded lossless via hdmi, then you should really make sure that you adjust the LFE trim +10db if the bass sounds thin.

Spend some time with your manuals and make sure you've got everything set-up properly before you do your listening to make sure you're comparing what you want to compare.

Fongolio

cheddar wrote: »

You can't do full lossless PCM surround over optical. You'll need to use hdmi to bitstream lossless surround to a bitstream capable AVR or the already decoded PCM to an AVR. If the Denon was receiving a stereo PCM signal converted from the full surround lossless track, then the AVR was applying its processing to convert this to surround sound. In any case, you weren't listening to the full lossless surround track with the slim since it was limited by the optical connection.

If receiving a PCM signal via hdmi with the ps3 and Onkyo, the AVR should display multichannel or some such thing. And if you still hear that bitstream old school DD and DTS sounds better than ps3 decoded lossless via hdmi, then you should really make sure that you adjust the LFE trim +10db if the bass sounds thin.

Spend some time with your manuals and make sure you've got everything set-up properly before you do your listening to make sure you're comparing what you want to compare.

Well said. I had assumed you were using HDMI from the PS3 to the receiver. If you were and bitstreamed DD sounds better than LPCM via HDMI something is not set right, especially if the difference is as drastic as you describe. Thanks cheddar.

Systems

cheddar wrote: »

You can't do full lossless PCM surround over optical. You'll need to use hdmi to bitstream lossless surround to a bitstream capable AVR or the already decoded PCM to an AVR. If the Denon was receiving a stereo PCM signal converted from the full surround lossless track, then the AVR was applying its processing to convert this to surround sound. In any case, you weren't listening to the full lossless surround track with the slim since it was limited by the optical connection.

If receiving a PCM signal via hdmi with the ps3 and Onkyo, the AVR should display multichannel or some such thing. And if you still hear that bitstream old school DD and DTS sounds better than ps3 decoded lossless via hdmi, then you should really make sure that you adjust the LFE trim +10db if the bass sounds thin.

Spend some time with your manuals and make sure you've got everything set-up properly before you do your listening to make sure you're comparing what you want to compare.

Yes, I figured that was the case, that it was the optical causing the limitations. I went through the Onkyo and Denon manuals again after I did all that, its all becoming frightningly clear to me now, although these manuals leave something to be desired...

I had just been using the old ps3 via optical into the Denon before I started changing, moving, and upgrading so had never messed around with any of these settings and hadn't been using HDMI for sound, just optical. So yes this has been a learning experience.....this stuff ain't easy at times..I bet over half of peoples home theaters aren't set up correctly...

Thanks again for bearing with me...