Super high powered amps

jaxwired

Some high end 2 channel manufacturers offer amplifiers that are 500w/ch or 600w/ch or even 1000w/ch at 8ohms. I'm skeptical that this level of power is ever necessary. Or at least for 99.9% of speakers on the market. What is the point of all this power.

Now, I do think that 25w/ch is not enough to get the best of some speakers, but once you get to 250w/ch, can it really make a diff going to 1000w/ch? I'm talking 2 channel audio only here.

Thoughts?

hearingimpared

Good, clean, high current amps will provide more dynamic headroom thus producing a truer reproduction of music especially classical music. When those heavy bass lines kick in high power amps will respond much better. My amp is 350 wpc relatively conservatively rated but if the company who makes my amp (I like their house sound) put out an amp with much higher wattage which in fact they do, I would trade up in a heartbeat, if I had the money of course.;)

Dawgfish

It's all about control. A higher powered amp will have better control of the bass and have much better headroom than lower wattage amps playing difficult, high demand passages. In fact far more speakers are damaged being overdriven with lower wattage amps than being overpowered with high wattage amps. Also there are some speakers that just respond better to wattage. Large ribbon and electrostatic (and even some cone speakers) speakers require lots of wattage to drive them properly. I know in my case, I have a pair of RTI-12s that sound better in every possible way being driven with 450 wpc @ 8 ohms vs. 250 wpc @ 8 ohms.

TroyD

agreed, all things being equal...more power is a good thing.


BDT

nooshinjohn

jaxwired wrote: »

Some high end 2 channel manufacturers offer amplifiers that are 500w/ch or 600w/ch or even 1000w/ch at 8ohms. I'm skeptical that this level of power is ever necessary. Or at least for 99.9% of speakers on the market. What is the point of all this power.

Now, I do think that 25w/ch is not enough to get the best of some speakers, but once you get to 250w/ch, can it really make a diff going to 1000w/ch? I'm talking 2 channel audio only here.

Thoughts?

you should hear them...The Mcintosh Mc1201 is delicious.:)

jaxwired

I'm not sure if the rest of the world agrees with the North American market on this. Seem like a lot of world respected UK brands don't offer these super high powered amps. Roksan, Cyrus, ATC, Naim, Exposure, Creek, Primare, etc... They all seem to focus on between 60 and 150 w\ch. In fact, many British amps are only 50 or 60 w\ch.

nooshinjohn

jaxwired wrote: »

I'm not sure if the rest of the world agrees with the North American market on this. Seem like a lot of world respected UK brands don't offer these super high powered amps. Roksan, Cyrus, ATC, Naim, Exposure, Creek, Primare, etc... They all seem to focus on between 60 and 150 w\ch. In fact, many British amps are only 50 or 60 w\ch.

Until the Brits figure out how to make reliable electronics, (remember Lucas) they are barred by international law from making anything more powerful than 150wpc. Anything more than that would be regarded as a weapon of mass destruction.:p

TNRabbit

I know the Original Carver Amazing Loudspeakers REQUIRE a boatload of power (1000 watts seems to be the magic number) into their low-R load.

mhardy6647

jaxwired wrote: »

Some high end 2 channel manufacturers offer amplifiers that are 500w/ch or 600w/ch or even 1000w/ch at 8ohms. I'm skeptical that this level of power is ever necessary. Or at least for 99.9% of speakers on the market. What is the point of all this power.

Now, I do think that 25w/ch is not enough to get the best of some speakers, but once you get to 250w/ch, can it really make a diff going to 1000w/ch? I'm talking 2 channel audio only here.

Thoughts?

It all depends on your speakers. I use a 14 watt stereo integrated (EICO HF-81 or Dynaco SCA-35; both push-pull EL84) on the real hifi in the living room. No complaints, but de gustibus non est disputandum (as they say). Oh, and I do use a soiled-state powered subwoofer most of the time, too.

There is a lot of mis- and dis-information out there (half-truths and pseudo-science). The physics is pretty straightforward, but music and hifi enjoyment engages both halves of the brain (ideally); listen a lot, trust your ears, and form your own opinions about what is best for you.

skipf

jaxwired wrote: »

I'm not sure if the rest of the world agrees with the North American market on this. Seem like a lot of world respected UK brands don't offer these super high powered amps. Roksan, Cyrus, ATC, Naim, Exposure, Creek, Primare, etc... They all seem to focus on between 60 and 150 w\ch. In fact, many British amps are only 50 or 60 w\ch.

Hmmm, maybe that's why they use that 28 ga speaker wire over there.

Hawkeye

I drove a pair of Paradigm Signature S8's with a 350 watt amp. I could drive it into PowerGuard (soft clip) very easily, especially on very dynamic, uncompressed music.

Once I upgraded to the 501's, I never hit PG. The needles would jump up to 500 on peaks and on a rare occasion, I'll listen to music at full tilt but only for a very short while! The additional headroom with a high power amp needs to be heard to be believed.

Gordon

cfrizz

What you will eventually come up with is the limitations to the speakers. I could discern no difference between my RTA-8t's being pushed by a 205wpc Parasound 1500A and my current Sunfire 405wpc amp.

Both are able to drive my speakers to their full capability which is all that's important.

amulford

I drive my speakers with 1150 WPC. It makes a difference, oh yes, it makes a difference...

TNRabbit

Power requirements are going to be affected by speakers, cables, distance to listening position, etc. There are a LOT of variables to consider when deciding on each component of your system~

hearingimpared

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Until the Brits figure out how to make reliable electronics, (remember Lucas) they are barred by international law from making anything more powerful than 150wpc. Anything more than that would be regarded as a weapon of mass destruction.:p

My amp is British made and is a 350 wpc hybrid integrated amp. I have no problems with it and it effortlessly drives my 1.2TL and begging for more challenges.

concealer404

cfrizz wrote: »

What you will eventually come up with is the limitations to the speakers. I could discern no difference between my RTA-8t's being pushed by a 205wpc Parasound 1500A and my current Sunfire 405wpc amp.

Both are able to drive my speakers to their full capability which is all that's important.

What she said.

My 'Digms wouldn't blink if i doubled the power going to them, but i'm not about to pair a 600wpc amp with them. Well... i might. Just to say i did, but that's not really the point.

adabro

jaxwired wrote: »

Some high end 2 channel manufacturers offer amplifiers that are 500w/ch or 600w/ch or even 1000w/ch at 8ohms. I'm skeptical that this level of power is ever necessary. Or at least for 99.9% of speakers on the market. What is the point of all this power.

Now, I do think that 25w/ch is not enough to get the best of some speakers, but once you get to 250w/ch, can it really make a diff going to 1000w/ch? I'm talking 2 channel audio only here.

Thoughts?

I asked a similar question on another forum when researching amps for my current setup:

"I am an AV novice so please explain if my logic here is flawed – the HT labs article states the following rating:

Onkyo TX-NR807 A/V Receiver:

HT Labs Measures
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 105.5 watts

Worried about all the under-powered talk here I looked at separate Amp’s and came across the following paragraph for Outlaw Monoblocks:

"The Model 2200 utilizes a newly designed (and proprietary) hybrid Class A/B/G circuit. It will provide Class A/B power up to 80 watts (which covers about 98% of most listening situations). Above 80 watts the Model 2200 will instantly shift into Class G amplification."

It states that 80 watts (per channel) covers about 98% of most listening situations… if the 807 can do 105 watts without distortion (in 5.1 setup) then shouldn’t that cover you for 98+ percent of the time? What would another 100 watts get you (assuming you aren’t cranking it to ear bleeding levels or trying to fill a concert hall)? Yes – I’m ignoring the 7.1 setups…"

My question related to this sentence:

It will provide Class A/B power up to 80 watts (which covers about 98% of most listening situations).

Assuming it was true I did not understand why you would need much more power..

I bought an amp anyway...

hearingimpared

BlueFox wrote: »

That last 2% can be the difference between satisfaction and unbearable distortion. The issue is transient peaks will go way beyond 100/200/300W, and if you do not have the power for those peaks then they will be clipped; i.e. distorted.

Ding ding ding . . . BINGO! However I have my doubts about the 98% thing.

nooshinjohn

hearingimpared wrote: »

My amp is British made and is a 350 wpc hybrid integrated amp. I have no problems with it and it effortlessly drives my 1.2TL and begging for more challenges.

Nice:cool: I guess the ban may have been lifted. What amp is it?

hearingimpared

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Nice:cool: I guess the ban may have been lifted. What amp is it?

Watch your choice of words there Bub, you'll have me ducking for cover!:D

It is a Musical Fidelity Tri-Vista 300. I believe it uses the tubes in the preamp section that were used in Russian MIGs. The amp section is sand. I love this piece of gear HOWEVER, I've heard Jesse's Musical Fidelity kw 500 which I believe and I could be wrong, boasts 500 wpc. I loved it. I want it! I will eventually have it.

Funny thing is I purchased the Tri-Vista from Jesse, so when he is ready to move up, hopefully I'll be able to take advantage of it!;):)

organ

Yes, depending on your choice of speakers, it is necessary. Take a pair of 82db/w/m speakers for example. It will need 1024 watts to hit a peak of 112db. That's not taking losses in the x-over and speaker impedance into account.

But if you're using a pair of Klipschorn, 3w/ch from a SET amp may be all you need.

hearingimpared

organ wrote: »

Yes, depending on your choice of speakers, it is necessary. Take a pair of 82db/w/m speakers for example. It will need 1024 watts to hit a peak of 112db. That's not taking losses in the x-over and speaker impedance into account.

But if you're using a pair of Klipschorn, 3w/ch from a SET amp may be all you need.

Whoa, talk about hard to drive speakers! What is the idea behind making such inefficient speakers?

organ

LOL. Yeah. My Mirage are 83db, my Maggies are close to that too.
I'm getting a new pair of speakers in a few weeks that are 82.5db.

jaxwired

The reason I started this thead is that I've recently become interested in Bryston gear. They have amps up to 1kw. I love my NAD equipment, but I've got the itch to try out Bryston. I've demoed the 2bsst2 which is 100w/ch and sounds extremely good even though they are pushing my hard to drive ineffecient speakers...

organ

The thing with Bryston is that there will be A LOT of reserves in the power supply. So even though it's only 100w/ch, it can throw transients at a much higher wattage. Also, they should handle low impedance very well. Bryston equipments are awesome.

pitdogg2

hearingimpared wrote: »

Watch your choice of words there Bub, you'll have me ducking for cover!:D

It is a Musical Fidelity Tri-Vista 300. I believe it uses the tubes in the preamp section that were used in Russian MIGs. The amp section is sand. I love this piece of gear HOWEVER, I've heard Jesse's Musical Fidelity kw 500 which I believe and I could be wrong, boasts 500 wpc. I loved it. I want it! I will eventually have it.

Funny thing is I purchased the Tri-Vista from Jesse, so when he is ready to move up, hopefully I'll be able to take advantage of it!;):)

nice to see your back in the forum Mr. impaired:)

maybe Jesse will step up to the MF Kw 750 which is 750wpc and need to get rid of the 500's to step up

I-SIG

When I had my SRS's bi-amped with a Parasound HCA-2200 and -1000 I figure I was pushing about 500w/ch at 6 ohms into the SRS's. I don't get my ears on a whole of equipment, but the dynamics of my system with that kind of power on hand were absolutely amazing.

Unfortunately, I was able to discern that that 2% (or whatever number you choose to put on it) was certainly missing. After upgrading to the lower powered (if you want to call ~280w/ch at 6 ohms "lower" powered), but much more refined Cary.

In this case it worth the trade off in dynamics for smoother, clearer, and less-harsh highs. With that said, I want to upgrade pre's so I can run 2 Cary's balanced and my SVS sub! :eek:

Wes

TNRabbit

organ wrote: »

Yes, depending on your choice of speakers, it is necessary. Take a pair of 82db/w/m speakers for example. It will need 1024 watts to hit a peak of 112db. That's not taking losses in the x-over and speaker impedance into account.

But if you're using a pair of Klipschorn, 3w/ch from a SET amp may be all you need.

hearingimpared wrote: »

Whoa, talk about hard to drive speakers! What is the idea behind making such inefficient speakers?

It would seem many of the world's best speakers have LOW impedance figures at certain frequencies & LOW efficiency ratings (Klipsch not withstanding). Apogee Scintilla, Carver Amazing Loudspeakers, several of the top Infinity speakers, etc. Why? I don't know. It appears designers hit several stumbling blocks when designing realistic/lifelike speakers with an awesome soundstage....

George Grand

Respected English amps are low powered. You ever see the size of a typical English listening room? They don't need a lot of power.