Center to match TSI-500s

fattmann

Looking to upgrade my center channel. Recently purchased a pair of TSI-500s for my mains, which displaced puny little satellites that were about 10yrs old. I haven't gotten any decent rears (step by step, where the satellites are going), but will probably end up with Polk all around.

Now here's my crazy head thinking too much- it always seemed to me that the center channel was over looked. I want to match the 500s as closely as possible as to not change the sound staging, but at the same time want to be 'practical'. I am considering the CS20 cause it has the 6.5" drivers in it. But my thought was, why not run another 500?

Someone please tell me if centers are actually tuned and crossovered (if thats a word) for vocals, or if it is just the top of the towers cut off. It seems it would give you the most dynamic range if you had all three matching fronts, that way it would be seamless. Space isn't an issue, neither is cost (I get most the TSI line-up through my employer decently priced), is there a reason Not to do such a thing?

I don't have yet- but am about to order the Yamaha 765. I have a 135w RMS stereo amp that I'm going to amp my mains w via preouts, so the receiver wont be working as hard, so power shouldn't be a huge issue. 60% music (mostly stereo), 20% gaming, 20% movies/tv dvds. That being said, I am an audio guy, so even though most of my use is not surround sound formats, I want it to be done right and don't mind the extra investment.

Sorry for the long post. Please any thoughts, including "it's a waste, don't do it" are welcome.

Thanks.

fattmann

Oh also relevant to the system that I forgot- the sub. I am running (don't laugh) a Kicker Solobaric L5 car sub in a 2.5cuft sealed box with currently on that 135w amp. Its square for those that aren't familar w the Solobarics, 12" square, almost 15" circular equiv of cone area. The thing pounds, drops down to about 28Hz, and is pretty accurate for what it is. I had put it together about 8yrs ago when funds were low, and it worked so well I never swapped it out.

The 500s greatly disappointed me on their bass response, they have a hard time hitting anywhere near 50hz w/out distortion. To their defense I am running a 10yr old KLH which I'm sure has an atrocious THD, so not going to hold it against them till I get my yammy. Thought about swapping the sub out, but any of the HT subs I've heard in my price range (read: under $400) just don't handle lows like my kicker, especially the music I listen to (Bass Mekanik, Square Pusher, anythingwridiculousbass).

I'm rambling. Thanks again for any input.

wutadumsn23

As for your center question, I don't know if another 500 would be a bad thing or not. I have seen people run a tower vertically for their center, but haven't gotten any feedback on it's performance. The CS20 is the timbre matched center for your 500's, and I don't know what, if any, would be gained by using a 500 in it's place. Would imaging be an issue due to it being vertical instead of horizontal like the CS20 would be? I have just recently aquired a set of TSi 500's that I used with my CS2 center and it worked pretty well. The CS2 works great with my Monitor 70's and have always been happy with it. For the sub, have you looked into the PSW505? At it's price point of $250 it is a very good sub for the money. Seeing that you do more music than HT a DSW sub would be good as well, or a used SVS or Velodyne. Not sure if you were looking for one or not, just thought I would add that. Welcome to Club Polk.

-Jeff

comfortablycurt

You can use any speaker that you want for a center.

Center channels aren't tuned for vocals or anything in particular. They're full range speakers...which they have to be. The center carries much more than just dialogue...it generally carries over 60% of a movies soundtrack. Gunshots, explosions, car chases and all. Anything that's front and center.

Ideally, you should use the same speakers for every position. It's not as crucial for surround channels IMO, but if you have the space, using three TSi500's for L/C/R would be the best option. You would still get excellent results with a CS20 though.

The thing to keep in mind though, is that you won't want to lay the TSi500 horizontally(like a traditional center speaker). It would have to be standing up to sound correct. Due to most peoples room setups, they can't accommodate a third tower, which is why "center" speakers are always horizontal. It's not as if a center channel has to be horizontal to sound right, that's just so people can fit them on their shelfs/racks/TV's etc. A third tower is going to have just as wide of a dispersion pattern as your left/right channels, and will likely sound better, due to the tweeters being at the exact same height. The best timbre match is to have the exact same speakers.:)

wutadumsn23

comfortablycurt wrote: »

The thing to keep in mind though, is that you won't want to lay the TSi500 horizontally(like a traditional center speaker).

That was my only concern Curt, forgot to mention that. A 4 foot tall center speaker would be badass, lol.

-Jeff

comfortablycurt

wutadumsn23 wrote: »

That was my only concern Curt, forgot to mention that. A 4 foot tall center speaker would be badass, lol.

-Jeff

Yeah...that's what's called a MAN center speaker. That's what you've gotta do now. TSi500's for the left and right, with a Monitor 70 for a center.;)

wutadumsn23

LOL, no way do I have room for that or I would try it. I have the 500's pulling surround duty for now while I build my 2 ch rig.

-Jeff

cnh

If you think about having an all TSI-500 5.1 system....imagine ALL those drivers blasting out movie scenes! HT...yep! 20 drivers and a sub or two...

cnh

wutadumsn23

cnh wrote: »

If you think about having an all TSI-500 5.1 system....imagine ALL those drivers blasting out movie scenes! HT...yep! 20 drivers and a sub or two...

cnh

LOL, that would be insane. I just need one more Monitor 70/TSi 500 and I could give it a shot, lol.

-Jeff

comfortablycurt

cnh wrote: »

If you think about having an all TSI-500 5.1 system....imagine ALL those drivers blasting out movie scenes! HT...yep! 20 drivers and a sub or two...

cnh

A sub or two? No less than four SVS PB-13 Ultra's will suffice.;)

Then it'll be time to add some TSi500 surround backs, heights and widths. Along with an AVR capable of decoding those formats.

Get on it Jeff!!



Better yet...scrap the TSi500's, and go with all 1.2TL's! Yes, even for the height speakers. You're going to need one hell of a wall mount though.:p

cnh

My mistake....500s have 5 drivers each so thats 25 drivers or if we go with Curt's scenario 9x5=45 and 4 sub drivers, heck let's throw in one more sub..for the sofa?

50 DRIVERS! And the walls came tumbling down!!!

cnh

wutadumsn23

LOL, you guys are insane. I couldn't imagine how that would sound, oh yeah I can.... AWESOME!! Now, just gotta get my hands on 5 1.2TL's on the cheap.

-Jeff

cnh

Yeah with 5 of those and some serious power, you'd be broadcasting to Alabama!

cnh

fattmann

Thanks for all the input guys! I'll probably end up going this route. What does Polk offer in the way of dipole surrounds? I don't have the room for a 7.1 just yet, but looking to plan ahead. Thought about dipoles for the surrounds, and get either some hefty bookshelfs for the surround backs- thats if I don't upgrade my mains are shift them back by then! lol

comfortablycurt nailed what I was thinking on the head. Sometimes it almost seems like more than 60% out of the center, and I see so many people that skip on it, makes me cringe. So tossing the 500 on it's side would be a bad idea? Had though about doing that and centering the drivers between the 500s, but don't need to. The 500s are currently only 32" apart, which works well for the room, I would obviously spread them out quite a bit more.

Had also thought about getting a 400 instead for the center to keep the vertical height down. Figured that would still be doing better than the CS20, but then again you get into the timbre matching issue... If I felt the tv was too high, I am not against putting a riser under the couch for vertical lift.

wutadumsn23 I'll have to take a look at some of the subs you mentioned, thanks. I don't really Need a new/anymore subs, but I have a HUGE node in the center of my room (at least a 24db drop below 120Hz) that I want to fix with made a second sub.

comfortablycurt

cnh wrote: »

My mistake....500s have 5 drivers each so thats 25 drivers or if we go with Curt's scenario 9x5=45 and 4 sub drivers, heck let's throw in one more sub..for the sofa?

50 DRIVERS! And the walls came tumbling down!!!

cnh

I still vote for the 9.4 1.2TL setup with 4 PB-13's.

12 drivers per speakerX9 speakers

108 active drivers, plus 9 passive radiators, and 4 subwoofers. Now that's a REAL HT.;)



fattman-Laying the 500 on it's side would be a bad idea. Towers are designed to be standing up, and laying them down will change their dispersion properties, and is going to make the center channel sound off center...and just generally not quite right.

fattmann

I hear you there curt, figured that's what you were referring to.

Also had a bi-amp question, didn't know if I should start a new thread for...

Was maybe thinking about bi-amping my mains (yes I've read ALOT about people saying it's not that beneficial) but was going to give it a shot just because. So my question is this-

Should I bi-amp my 500s with the surround backs on the yammy 765, or run the external amp I mentioned (stereo, non bi-amped) above?

Don't know if the 765 supports this, but been thinking about all the combination of amping- including amping my mains, bi-amping the center/ or bi-amping the mains and external amping my center... If I'm going to drop a large center in there, I don't want that to be my bottleneck..

Thoughts? again with the ramblings... lol

wutadumsn23

comfortablycurt wrote: »

fattman-Laying the 500 on it's side would be a bad idea. Towers are designed to be standing up, and laying them down will change their dispersion properties, and is going to make the center channel sound off center...and just generally not quite right.

+1, I couldn't agree more, why else would they make a speaker specifically designed for the center, lol.

fattmann wrote: »

Was maybe thinking about bi-amping my mains (yes I've read ALOT about people saying it's not that beneficial) but was going to give it a shot just because. So my question is this-

Should I bi-amp my 500s with the surround backs on the yammy 765, or run the external amp I mentioned (stereo, non bi-amped) above?

Don't know if the 765 supports this, but been thinking about all the combination of amping- including amping my mains, bi-amping the center/ or bi-amping the mains and external amping my center... If I'm going to drop a large center in there, I don't want that to be my bottleneck..

Thoughts? again with the ramblings... lol

What you are refering to is actually called Bi Wiring, and IMHO isn't worth the cost of the extra speaker wire. Looks like that 765 has pre outs, so you are good for an external amp. IMHO, the amp is the best option for getting more power to your 500's.

-Jeff

fattmann

Wouldn't the amp assignable surround backs count as a full biamp? Thought that was the point... if thats not the case w the yammy, very disappointed..

wutadumsn23

fattmann wrote: »

Wouldn't the amp assignable surround backs count as a full biamp? Thought that was the point... if thats not the case w the yammy, very disappointed..

Not as far as I know, many companies that make 7.1 AVR's state you can use the unused Surround Back L/R terminals to Bi-Amp your mains, but keep in mind the AVR only has one power source and all the speakers are getting their power from said source. You aren't going to gain much, if anything, from this configuration, but if you have the speaker wire it doesn't hurt to try. I stand by my statement of using an external amp for the best results.

-Jeff

fattmann

Wow, guess I never really looked into it. So their "biamping" is really just traditional bi-wiring? Does Not double the wattage seen at the speaker? MEGA LAME.

Hmm, I may give some of the Denon's, Onkyo's and Pioneer's a second glance. Thanks for that heads up!

mdaudioguy

Center tower. Just do it. I highly recommend it. Horizontal centers are lame...

Just watched Paranormal Activity... Without a sub, there wouldn't be half the suspense in that movie. Not super low bassaholic stuff, just some good low rumbling and a few booms.

hagmanm2

Hey, sorry to piggy-back onto your thread, but I have a question that goes along with what you guys are talking about. I have a very similar setup, and although I do have a CS20 right now, I wouldn't be opposed to investigating this center tower setup. :cool:

Besides the logistical difficulty of placing a 44in speaker under your TV, what other concerns should be taken into consideration? The CS20 doesn't need nearly as much power to push, and therefore frees up more for the TSI500s. If running off an AVR w/out an amp (I have a Denon 3805 @ 120 WPC), will a power-hungry third 500 diminish the overall response of the system?

This may be a dumb question but does the center receive a full range signal (and/or does that depend on the AVR)?

How would the CS20 compare to the TSI 300 or 400 (both smaller than the 500 and *presumably* require less power to hit their sweet spots)?

@ Fattmann: with the sort of setup you're talking about, are you simply going to wall mount your TV? And where are you going to put your rack? Next to the TSI500 center?

Also, I'd love to see a pic of your homemade subwoofer.

Once again, sorry for hijacking your thread, but hopefully you'll find these useful questions.

wutadumsn23

fattmann wrote: »

Wow, guess I never really looked into it. So their "biamping" is really just traditional bi-wiring? Does Not double the wattage seen at the speaker? MEGA LAME.

Yup, just a marketing gimmick, IMHO.

-Jeff

cnh

You can Bi-amp...but you need two separate amps....and most people are just bi-wiring. The Polk tower is designed so you can power the upper frequency driver with one amp and the bass with another. There are some potential advantages to this scenario...but it's really a bit more advanced a maneuver than it is made out to be....it would be best, for example to have the same or similar amps (you need two different amps), same manufacturer. Matching is a....well you know...and tweeters don't need the same amount of boost that bass drivers benefit more from, etc.

So unless you want to buy external amps, pre-amps, etc. I'd say don't worry about it.

cnh

fattmann

Well piss. I will still probably go with the 765 since it has the pre-outs. Guess the bi-amping is out of the picture for a while, until I can afford some more amps. Will I need a pre-amp if I'm going to amp my mains? I figured I wouldn't need to, assuming the receiver would act as the pre, but since I was misled about the bi-amping thought I'd better ask...

hagmanm2: As long as you have the center channel set to Large, you should be getting a dynamic range out of the center speaker. I would definitely assume you would be much more likely to clip the amp if you ran three towers the size of the 500s on one receiver, unless you have a pretty decent unit. Which is why I plan on externally amping my mains; to give them more juice they need for music, then let the receiver take care of the center for movies (ultimate goal, "ideal setup," would be to have towers all around with all discrete amping).

I wondered about the CS20 vs the TSI-400/300 myself in an earlier post. I know it wouldn't be quite the same, but probably close. The opinion i've come to is that if you are going through the effort, do it right and get all the same (budget allowed, lol).

You really don't want to see my sub... it's REAL ugly..lol. But it does the job. Just a ~2.5cu ft box made of 3/4 MDF (don't think any angles are square..), unfinished. Perhaps I'll get a pic up at some point.

As far as setup goes, I have a 7ft rack that I have all my equipment in next to my 32" tube that is just sitting on a desk for now. The plan was to get a full motion mount for the tv (40-46", when I get it) and bolt it to the rack just above the height of the towers. I do mostly music, so I'll fold it back until I watch some movies. The rack weighs about 300# empty, plus god knows how much weight in A/V crap in it, plus it's all steel. So don't think I'll have trouble getting it mounted.

fattmann

Still torn on the receiver, friend showed me this article on gizmodo:

http://gizmodo.com/5480790/av-receiver-battlemodo-600-or-bust

I can get all of those for a decent price, and of course the 765 got last place... Am I being too obsessed over amping my mains? Don't want my receiver to restrict me as my system expands, but I don't want to regret spending the money...

Once again any input is appreciated, good or bad. And thanks for actually reading any of this!

wutadumsn23

Don't put too much stock in those reviews. WHile they are nice to go by, everyone's ears are different and another test with the same units by someone else may net completely different results. While I am a huge Onkyo fan, I am surprised the 606 did so well in the test honestly. Look for one that suits your needs and if at all possible try to get your ears on as many as possible to make your decision. Good luck.

-Jeff