Capturing the Sound of Vinyl

Cpyder

I know some people who own vinyl albums and output the audio signal from their turntable to their computer in high-resolution using expensive equipment. (24-bit/96kHz, for example) Do you think this accurately captures the "sound" of vinyl that so many people seem to love? I would think it would, right?

nooshinjohn

no... it does not. There is no substitute for the real thing.

Cpyder

nooshinjohn wrote: »

no... it does not. There is no substitute for the real thing.

That doesn't seem like a fair answer. You didn't say anything about "why" there's no substitute for the real thing. I'm interested to hear what you have to say.

TroyD

Because, once you turn an analog waveform into 1's and 0's....it's game over. I mean, most music STARTS from an analog source and is converted to digital...

BDT

nooshinjohn

Cpyder wrote: »

That doesn't seem like a fair answer. You didn't say anything about "why" there's no substitute for the real thing. I'm interested to hear what you have to say.

Your question did not ask why or why not, only what do you think:rolleyes:....

The reason is that once you dis-assemble the analog sound and convert it to a digital signal, the essence of what the sound was is lost. In between all those 1's and 0's are tiny fragments of information that simply disappear, and once lost they can never be replaced. You can oversample to infinity, but once it is digital it will always be just a sample of the real thing.:)


Peace.

headrott

Cpyder wrote: »

That doesn't seem like a fair answer. You didn't say anything about "why" there's no substitute for the real thing. I'm interested to hear what you have to say.

See post #34, at least as a partial explanation.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97076&page=2

Greg

P.S. IMO this seems like a question to set people up.........

Zitro

If you really want to know, send doctorcilantro a PM. When I met up with him we spoke for a while and he actually does this pretty extensively and is a proponent of it. Seemed like he was pretty knowledgeable on the topic, although I'm not very familiar with it myself.

treitz3

Why capture vinyl when you can have vinyl?

That one's for you Joe...

nooshinjohn

^^^what he said.

eor

I am in the very early stages of archiving a couple thousand 78's. As a trial run and for fun, I did an LP (Knopfler's "Shangri-La"). I ran the signal from my TT, through a phono stage and into a 24/192 digital recorder. From there I cut the sides into tracks saving each at full resolution.

For fun I downsampled the lot and burned them out to CD for a friend. I asked him how he liked the tunes and his response was "I forgot how nice and warm records sound, I'll have to get a new needle for my turntable."

Yeah, a wave is a wave and nothing discreet can ever be a wave. That doesn't mean that different digital versions of a piece can't have different qualities. I still have a lot of work to do to figure out what comes closest to representing the particular waves I enjoy hearing, but at 24/192 I've got a lot more dynamic range and a lot more tiny intervals to play with than the 16/44.1 that is crammed on to a CD.

wayne3burk

I've captured about 100 albums so far to CD / MP3 -- only for the purpose of being able to listen to my music on my ipod or to play it from itunes through my 2-channel setup. Besides, it's pretty easy to do and a good excuse to sit and enjoy my albums .

Fongolio

I disagree with some of the above posts. I do think you can come very close to capturing the essence of vinyl in the digital domain. I have been a strong advocate of vinyl for several years now and own close to 2000 LP's but the recent aquisition of a Rotel RCD-855 cd player with modded tube out put has brought the magic to digital for me. I've done several of my own vinyl rips and have a friend with a super high end turntable that does amazing vinyl rips. When I play these on the Rotel 90% of the vinyl magic is there and they are extremely convenient.

bikerboy

I have just started to record lps to the computer using a ESI Juli@ sound card @ 24/192. It sounds good but you still have to decode the digital signal back to analog to get it to go through the preamp. Many steps involved. I like being able to use the computer for convinence but I can't say it sounds as good. So its hard to say if the digital copy that I make will sound "analog".

HB27

"steak in....ground beef out"
You can get some very good sound out of digital. You will lose a lot in reproduction.
I'm always at the mercy of the engineering of my source.

skipf

I've had very good results transferring vinyl to CD using my Marantz CD recorder. It does a much better job than using a computer as I have tried previously.

cnh

treitz3 wrote: »

Why capture vinyl when you can have vinyl?

That one's for you Joe...

Yeah, I don't get this either? Who would do it? And why bother unless your archiving.

A better question is how do you capture the sound of a Master Reel-to-Reel tape (that is the Ultimate analog source)? Answer: Vinyl!

cnh

TroyD

Lots of people used to record vinyl to tapes....to listen to in the car or just casually and what not.

Can it sound good? Sure, why not.....but are you really capturing the sound of vinyl (or analog)....I dunno.

BDT

bikerboy

I do it so I can be doing stuff around the house and be dirty and dusty and not have to clean, flip and care for a record. I also like to listen to vinyl in the car. Digitizing the lps makes that possible. I dont have a lot of my vinyl on cd.

wayne3burk

Cpyder wrote: »

Do you think this accurately captures the "sound" of vinyl that so many people seem to love? I would think it would, right?

I think an A/B listening test would be interesting:

1) Record the vinyl on CD

2) Have a CD of the same LP

3) Have two Identical CD Players hooked up to your 2 channel system at the same time

4) Start both CDs with a remote control

5) Switch between inputs and compare the "quality" of the Store Bought CD with the Captured Vinyl CD

mhardy6647

For the record (so to speak) and for what it's worth, here is how I like to dub vinyl. VHS HiFi videotape is a wide dynamic range, high-performance analog format (helical-scan FM audio recording). Yeah, it's a little anachronistic. It's a must to use good-quality tape to minimize/avoid dropouts.

The Zenith "Audio/Video VHS HiFi HQ" VCR was purchased new by me ca. 1986 at the Stereo Discounters annual show and sale at the Timonium Fairgrounds in MD.

In fairness, excellent CD copies of vinyl can be made. The better the analog reproduction chain (tt, arm, cartridge, phono preamp), the better the result, of course.

madmax

I've had surprisingly good luck going from the vinyl setup to a standalone CD recorder. The output sound from the recorded CD resembles vinyl far more than the generic released CD. With that said there are still things lost but the tone is still there. My major argument against vinyl recorded to CD are the surface noises. From the lp they disappear in to some far corner way behind the performance. From the CD they are right in front of my face between me and the music.
madmax

zingo

If you are strictly talking about reproducing a sound that is as good as vinyl through a HIFI system, I think it is possible. I have heard very good digital and analog systems, and IMO, they can both sound just as musical.

The subject of recording a vinyl record at home onto a CD, is completely different. You will be hard pressed to achieve equal SQ in method because most home recording/transferring equipment is just not good enough to provide the level of playback that we, audiophiles want. Most home recorded/transferred material, digital or analog, will sound inferior to a professionally captured one.

The true test of analog vs. digital is to have the exact same high quality recording played back from "comparable" digital and analog sources on the same system and listen for the differences.

analog97

Madmax has hit the nail well. I fully agree that you can get excellent results making a CD from vinyl. BUT, my experience is based on using some pretty good stuff. I have a Hagerman Labs Ripper that does the analog-digital conversion, fed via a VPI MK IV TT, nice carts, Hagerman Cornet2 phono pre and a Hagerman Clarinet pre (these are tube units). Prior to this, I tried various (lesser) equipment with the predictable results. Obviously, when I'm home, I don't play the CD's, but use for the car. Still trying to get my SDA's in the car, but that's easier than than the TT.....:eek:

Fongolio

I have done the A/B comparisons between store bought cd versus vinyl rip cd and even on my medium quality equipment my vinyl rips win every time. Many store bought cd's are created really "hot". High levels for max volume and NOT for max SQ. And to address Madmax's point the surface noise can be nearly eliminated with some digital noise removing tools. As long as they are not set too high you can have fantastic results with minimal or no reduction in dynamics. Small ticks and pops I remove manually. I've even done A/B comparisons vinyl/cd ripped from vinyl and the results are amazingly close with vinyl winning by a fraction. Today's digital recording and cleaning software packages can produce some amazing results. Audacity is a free program that can produce great results as well.

And to answer the question why? For hard sit down close my eyes listening I will always prefer vinyl but for everything else vinyl rips are easier, portable, less time consuming, less work and does not wear out the vinyl. Don't forget, every time you play a record you wear it down just a little. Not the same with digital.

madmax

Fongolio wrote: »

Many store bought cd's are created really "hot".

I have often wondered why my lp digital recordings sounded so much better than the average CD but never put a lot of thought into it. I think you just hit it on the head! COMPRESSION!

You know, it makes me sick that you can't hardly buy media that isn't intentionally effed up.
madmax

zingo

madmax wrote: »

You know, it makes me sick that you can't hardly buy media that isn't intentionally effed up.
madmax

That's why I buy Chesky.

sixin1us

It all has to do with compression and play back. Carver had an answer but dosent quite do it.

rromeo923

Old thread but......
I have many, many needle drop vinyl rips 24/96 and they sound very good. However, they really dont have the vinyl sound. Not sure why but it it a fact to my ears. Vinyl on a Turntable is special.