Two sets of speakers

FrankJG

I am new here, not an expert at all on audio matters, so I apologize if my question sounds odd.
I find myself owning two sets of what I think are rather good bookshelf speakers (Boston VR-60 and Yamaha Soavo 900m). I use a Yamaha AX 497 stereo amplifier. I think I prefer the sound of the Boston speakers a little better, but sometimes I am not sure. My question to audiophiles here is: do you think connecting both sets of speakers should improve the sound or make it worse? I've tried it but I really can't decide what sounds better. Is this something that people do at all? My living room is about 10 by 18 feet, and the couch is about 7 feet away from the opposite wall where the sound system is.

disneyjoe7

It may help us in helping you to know just what you like to listen too. Like is this 2 channel music and what kind, or HT setup of some kind?

FrankJG

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

It may help us in helping you to know just what you like to listen too. Like is this 2 channel music and what kind, or HT setup of some kind?

Yes, 2 channel music. Mostly contemporary jazz, sometimes classical and coral music, from CDs and FM radio.

danz1906

Welcome to the Club!

If it sounds good to you, Go for it.

zingo

Don't connect two sets of speakers to one amp/receiver. Your amp probably will not like the load, and the sound is only going to be messy and the speakers are going to clash. I would hook them up one at a time, listen to the same track on both, multiple times if you need too, then pick the ones you like better. If you still can't decide, keep both and just switch them periodically or sell both and buy a new pair of speakers.

On another note, I haven't seen a pair of those Yamaha Soavo 900m around, or anywhere for that matter. They look like kind of cool speakers.

treitz3

Yes and no.

Let me tell you where I arrived at this conclusion. A few years back, I tried blowing thousands of dollars to make two speakers provide all of the frequencies I was looking for. The reason I did this is because at the time, I had yet to hear a speaker that would give me ALL of the frequencies I was looking for. Went through probably 13 amplifiers, 3 or pairs of speakers, boxes and boxes of SC's, PC's and IC's, couple of CD players, couple of pre's, 4 or 5 subs, blah, blah, blah....to finally get what I was looking for because [again] I hadn't heard one speaker that did it all for me.

That system actually had a nickname. She was called "Crackbaby" because it was generally considered a "non-conventional" rig. Now, I did finally achieve what I wanted in sound/frequencies after blowing about $24,000.00 or so in gear. It sounded wonderful and provided me with many countless hours of sonic bliss. My only issue or gripe was that there were sometimes an image smearing that would occur. For instance, on a ladies vocal. You hear her singing one word with a couple of different notes, right? Well, what would happen is that her spatial location would all of a sudden move [even though she and her spatial location didn't] when the notes would change up and down. That would drive me nuckin' futz!

So, one year I packed up my whole rig and brought it to an audio event where many people including Mr. Bob Carver were attending. There were very few people that listened to that rig that had gripes. Those that did have a gripe, had the same one I had. That occasional image smearing that I somehow couldn't fix, no matter what I did or what I tried. :mad:

Now, along my audio journey came a great lesson from Mr. Carver during this event...he came upstairs to listen to my rig and we had a blast just sittin' back and discussing audio whilst listening to some tunes and me enjoying my normal cold beer(s). At the end of the listening session, he pulled me aside and told me that though there were many rigs set up at the event, this one stood out amongst the crowd. I thanked him and then he asked me if I was satisfied with it. My immediate answer, "No."

He asked why and then I went into my normal analytical observations of what he eventually told me was lobing. That there WAS no way to correct that issue until I went down to one speaker. The fact that I had two mains was the actual issue, even though that system didn't have the right to sound as good as it did.

Since that day, I have sold most of that gear and moved on to a KISS [Keep It Simple Stupid] system. It has taken me over two more years and many more trial and error changes to find what I once had in that system, this time with only one pair of mains. I [Praise Jesus!] have once again achieved my goal. This time with only one set of mains and no lobing issue.

So, that said? Yes and no.

disneyjoe7

Gee seems to be the longest "Yes and No" response ever, but I feel you needed to get that off your chest feel better now Tom?

treitz3

Oh yes. I can finally breathe.

I need a beer.

FrankJG

zingo wrote: »

Don't connect two sets of speakers to one amp/receiver. Your amp probably will not like the load, and the sound is only going to be messy and the speakers are going to clash. I would hook them up one at a time, listen to the same track on both, multiple times if you need too, then pick the ones you like better. If you still can't decide, keep both and just switch them periodically or sell both and buy a new pair of speakers.

On another note, I haven't seen a pair of those Yamaha Soavo 900m around, or anywhere for that matter. They look like kind of cool speakers.

How does one know if the amp is overloaded? I usually don't put the music up too loud, and I did not notice anything unusual when using both sets. And what does clashing mean? Is it related to the position of the speakers. I tried them side by side, and even one on top of the other (The Yamahas on top of the BAs with some thick cloth in between. It's driving me crazy, I can't decide what sounds better.

The Soavo 900m are very good looking indeed without the screen, but I had been using the Boston VR M60s for a few years and always loved them. Well maybe I should do as you say and keep switching things around until I make up my mind. I can't bring myself to sell either of them. I was just wondering if this kind of thing was a big no no or something.

FrankJG

treitz3 wrote: »

Yes and no.
[...]

Since that day, I have sold most of that gear and moved on to a KISS [Keep It Simple Stupid] system. It has taken me over two more years and many more trial and error changes to find what I once had in that system, this time with only one pair of mains. I [Praise Jesus!] have once again achieved my goal. This time with only one set of mains and no lobing issue.

So, that said? Yes and no.

What do you mean by lobing?

treitz3

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/45379-lobbing-what-laymans-terms.html

Check out Mr. Evils post [post #3]. That pretty much sums it up in layman's terms.

FrankJG

FrankJG wrote: »

What do you mean by lobing?

Ah, I've re-read your post, and I suppose you mean the location shifting issue. I don't think I've noticed any of that. Could that problem be solved by placing one set right above the other or very close to the other? My idea (maybe too innocent) was that using two good pairs of bookshelf speakers, one next to the other or above each other might produce a similar result as a good pair of floorstanding speakers.

RuSsMaN

Great link above.

Find a speaker you like listening to (overall tonal signature), then lovingly tweak the sound on your back end, components, cables, etc. I've heard both the Boston and Yamaha you listed, and much prefer the Boston sound.

Polk makes some great speakers by the way.

Cheers,
Russ

(if your amp/receiver has hookups for 4 speakers, run some wires into another room, make use of both pairs, and spread the joy of music through your abode)

FrankJG

treitz3 wrote: »

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/45379-lobbing-what-laymans-terms.html

Check out Mr. Evils post [post #3]. That pretty much sums it up in layman's terms.

Thanks. The guy does offer some hope. He says:

"It can be minimized by placing the drivers as close together as possible, and by not having multiple drivers reproducing the same frequencies (e.g. have very steep crossover slopes). Positioning the drivers in a vertical line will also help prevent the effect in the horizontal axis."

Zitro

Treitz3, I can't help but be curious, what was the one pair of speakers that finally did it for you?

treitz3

FrankJG wrote: »

My idea (maybe too innocent) was that using two good pairs of bookshelf speakers, one next to the other or above each other might produce a similar result as a good pair of floor standing speakers.

That was my original thought as well. Look, I have to be honest with you. If you like it better with two speakers and you are never sitting down in the sweet spot critically listening to the music? You might like the two mains idea. To me, I guess it would all just boil down to where you are at in your own audio journey.

I just wouldn't spend a lot of money doing it. Been there, done that and I wasn't satisfied. I am now.

treitz3

Zitro wrote: »

Treitz3, I can't help but be curious, what was the one pair of speakers that finally did it for you?

A pair of Tyler Acoustics Linbrook Signature Series. Very nice, well rounded speaker that's good for many different genre's of music. Even though they are not full range, you would swear they were. I'm having a lot of fun with them and enjoying music like never before.

FrankJG

Thank you all very much for your helpful comments and suggestions. I am thinking that since the size of the drivers in the VR-M60s and the Soavos 900m seems different, if I place them one above the other, pointing at me, the lobing problem might be minimized or even eliminated. Otherwise it should occur also on floorstanding speakers, right? Anyway, I have a lot to learn, which should not be hard because I obviously know next to nothing. I suspect that audiophilia can become a serious and expensive addiction, and since I have an obsessive personality, I need to be careful in these endeavors. Thanks again.

treitz3

FrankJG wrote: »

Otherwise it should occur also on floorstanding speakers, right?

Not really but technically....yes.

The well designed crossover network and engineering of a multi-driver speaker set prevents lobing or detectable to the human ear lobing. This can include but is not limited to incorporating out of phase drivers, all drivers being in phase, active drivers, passive drivers, sealed speakers, vented speakers, the exact bandwidth each specific driver is chosen to reproduce, overlap and degree of slope, diaphragm size, shape and cone/dome/panel geometry, driver spacing/layout and then it gets even more involved [seemingly to the inth degree] with cone/dome weights/types, suspension stiffness, driver efficiency......and it goes on and on.

In a nutshell, the speaker [a pair of multi-driver speakers, that is] has been engineered to prevent [as much as the speaker manufacturer wants too] lobing or any other undesirable artifacts.

When you introduce the second set of speakers, you violate [if you will] all efforts put forth to prevent lobing or any other undesirable artifacts. I hope that makes sense to you.

FrankJG

treitz3 wrote: »

Not really but technically....yes.

The well designed crossover network and engineering of a multi-driver speaker set prevents lobing or detectable to the human ear lobing. This can include but is not limited to incorporating out of phase drivers, all drivers being in phase, active drivers, passive drivers, sealed speakers, vented speakers, the exact bandwidth each specific driver is chosen to reproduce, overlap and degree of slope, diaphragm size, shape and cone/dome/panel geometry, driver spacing/layout and then it gets even more involved [seemingly to the inth degree] with cone/dome weights/types, suspension stiffness, driver efficiency......and it goes on and on.

In a nutshell, the speaker [a pair of multi-driver speakers, that is] has been engineered to prevent [as much as the speaker manufacturer wants too] lobing or any other undesirable artifacts.

When you introduce the second set of speakers, you violate [if you will] all efforts put forth to prevent lobing or any other undesirable artifacts. I hope that makes sense to you.

Thanks, it does make sense.
I have another pair of questions.

1. In a stereo system, is it important that the lenght of cable to each speaker be the same. My left cable is about 2.5 feet, and the right one is nearly twice that length. Should I make them both the exact same length?

2. The VR-60s have inputs for high and low pass. Does it make a big difference whether you use cables with high and low pass terminals, or not really?

concealer404

FrankJG wrote: »

Thanks, it does make sense.
I have another pair of questions.

1. In a stereo system, is it important that the lenght of cable to each speaker be the same. My left cable is about 2.5 feet, and the right one is nearly twice that length. Should I make them both the exact same length?

2. The VR-60s have inputs for high and low pass. Does it make a big difference whether you use cables with high and low pass terminals, or not really?

It's important to the anal retentive of us. Yes, in theory it makes a difference. But if you can hear the difference between a 2.5 foot run and a 5 foot run, you are a god among men.

Can you explain item 2 a little more? Not sure exactly what you mean by cables with high and low pass terminals.

reeltrouble1

stacking speakers is a bad idea, a very bad one, always has been and always will be, there is loads of info about it in threaDS long gone so stir the echoes. If you feel you need to stack something is sorely missing in your rig. so you have some study to do or you can listen to the know-it-alls that populate the peanut gallery and chase your tail.

RT1

disneyjoe7

Thinking he is missing bass, he needs some other speakers.

FrankJG

concealer404 wrote: »

It's important to the anal retentive of us. Yes, in theory it makes a difference. But if you can hear the difference between a 2.5 foot run and a 5 foot run, you are a god among men.

Can you explain item 2 a little more? Not sure exactly what you mean by cables with high and low pass terminals.

Ok. I am relieved about question 1.

Regarding question 2. If you look at the back of the speakers, http://www.specsserver.com/CACHE/FILE18009.PDF
you can see there are four inputs. There exist cables where the end going into the speakers branches into 4 terminals, instead of the regular two. One pair is labeled "high pass" and the other "low pass". These are kind of expensive cables. If you connect to a normal cable, with only two terminals on both ends, then you connect to the upper pair of inputs on the speakers. I heard that this really does not make any appreciable difference and that this kind of high pass/low pass separation is a kind of gimmick.

FrankJG

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

stacking speakers is a bad idea, a very bad one, always has been and always will be, there is loads of info about it in threaDS long gone so stir the echoes. If you feel you need to stack something is sorely missing in your rig. so you have some study to do or you can listen to the know-it-alls that populate the peanut gallery and chase your tail.

RT1

No. I don't feel that I need to do it. It's just that I now have both pairs through odd circumstances. I am strongly attached to the Bostons (emotionally) and aesthetically impressed by the Yamahas in their natural birch finish. To me the "look" is rather important, and I am convinced that it may even affect how you perceive the sound, sort of like those who insist that wines and foods taste different depending on the looks of the container from which they are consumed. So I've been wondering if an arrangement can be found where using both simultaneously may add something to the quality of the sound. If I could bring myself to get rid of one pair, I would not have this problem. But I can't.

Hawkeye

The four posts allow for biwiring and or biamping. As long as you have the jumpers connecting the top and bottom, you can use a regular (2 leads) speaker wire.

Gordon

reeltrouble1

Frank, if you already understand that looks matter then you are dangling on the edge of the rather vast audio Rabbit Hole, just a puff of wind and you will fall into the rather strange and quite wonderful abyss for you own little sonic journey....for you first bit of RT1 advice....it is better to seek forgiveness than permission.

Now its all up to you. Your present perdicament can be easily resolved, two set of speaks, two rigs....simple.

RT1

FrankJG

Hawkeye wrote: »

The four posts allow for biwiring and or biamping. As long as you have the jumpers connecting the top and bottom, you can use a regular (2 leads) speaker wire.

Gordon

I apologize for my ignorance again. I am not sure what you mean. How can you have a regular (2 leads) cable connected to both the top and bottom inputs on the speakers? You need 4 leads for that, don't you?

Hawkeye

Frank, no need apologize. There are four posts on the back of the speaker you provided a link to. Two reds and two blacks. Do you have a gold or brass colored strip of metal connecting the two reds and another strip connecting the blacks? If you do, you only need to connect to one pair of red and black. The strip makes the connection to the other set.

If this strip is not installed, you will need a four lead wire at the speaker end to activate both the highs and lows.

Hope that helps.

Gordon

FrankJG

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

Frank, if you already understand that looks matter then you are dangling on the edge of the rather vast audio Rabbit Hole, just a puff of wind and you will fall into the rather strange and quite wonderful abyss for you own little sonic journey....for you first bit of RT1 advice....it is better to seek forgiveness than permission.

Now its all up to you. Your present perdicament can be easily resolved, two set of speaks, two rigs....simple.

RT1

What exactly do you mean by "two rigs"?
I really appreciate the suggestions by all of you. My current situation is such that I work at home as a freelance translator. I like listening to music as I work. Right now listening to a cd called Music for Holy Week, featuring only human voices with some echo from the recording chamber. The yamahas work great for this. But when music involving instruments is in play, I think the Boston's are a bit better. I can see this is a bottomless pit you can easily get sucked into. Even a slight change in your position can make a huge difference in the listening experience.

FrankJG

Hawkeye wrote: »

Frank, no need apologize. There are four posts on the back of the speaker you provided a link to. Two reds and two blacks. Do you have a gold or brass colored strip of metal connecting the two reds and another strip connecting the blacks? If you do, you only need to connect to one pair of red and black. The strip makes the connection to the other set.

If this strip is not installed, you will need a four lead wire at the speaker end to activate both the highs and lows.

Hope that helps.

Gordon

It does help enormously. I do have a set of cables with four leads. But if I want to put the Bostons in the bedroom, the cables won't be long enough. Now I understand that I need to connect red to red and black to black on the speaker posts if I use a two lead cable. Thanks.