How many subs should I get?

hamzahsh

I'm planning to buy either 1 or 2 Velodyne Subwoofers for my system.

I have the following choices:

1. One Velodyne CHT-15 15" sub.
or
2. Two Velodyne CHT-15 15" subs.
or
3. One Velodyne CHT-10 10" sub.
or
4. Two Velodyne CHT-10 10" subs.

I mainly watch movies but I also love music. Especially Smooth Jazz/Easy Listening type. Basically I would like to know what choice would give me the best of both worlds.

Thanks for the help.:)

Dr. Spec

If you are set on Velo CHT, then get the dual 15's. Great for HT (moves a ton of air) and will display low distortion and effortless ease for music.

Doc

hamzahsh

Thanks Dr. Spec for the reply, I'll for wait for others what they say and then I'll ask you how to set 2 Velo 15" on Denon AVR-3803 'cause soon I'll get that as well.

I would love to keep them with my L/R RT800i's but at what crossover, more questions for the setup.

Thanks Doc!

BeginnersLuck

Just food for thought...have you considered a HT sub and a differnet sub for music applications?

-BL

dorokusai

I am w/ Dr. on this, get the 2 15" Velodyne. You were specific in your post, so you won't be displeased with that choice.

Frank Z

Based on your music preferences I would think that 1 10"sub would be more than adequate. If you were into screamin' heathin, devil worshiping rock-n-roll, or (God forbid) hip-hop/crap, then I could see using 2 subs.

BTW, How big is your HT?

faster100

2 15" subs!!!!! WoW
That's what i want to know, how big is the room this is all going in? why would anybody need two 15" subs unless the room was very very large

Dr. Spec

The Velo CHT 15 is not a servo, but it has a peak SPL limiter and really doesn't play as loudly as one might suspect based on its prodigious size.

Two of them will be about the same as a single SVS 25-31PC+, and will generate 115 dB peaks in a moderate size room (2000-2500 ft3), which is just about perfect for HT.

Doc

faster100

Oh i see, two 15s seemed like alot at first

hamzahsh

Originally posted by Dr. Spec
The Velo CHT 15 is not a servo,
T
Doc

Dr. Spec to just let you know Velodyne CHT-15 15" has servo-sensing technology to minimize distortion at high levels.

For my use I think 1 Velodyne CHT-15 would be more than enough. I'm not into heavy hard rock'n roll or RAP music. I'm into Instrumental music like Enigma, Hiroshima and Smooth Jazz from Paul Hardcastle. I'm also into Pop, Modern Talking, Michael Jackson and some Dance. Especially music of 80's.

My primary use of HT is movies and secondary is music so what I want is a sub which can be deep and same time musical as well.

I want more transparency in sound, clean bass and more natural sound for Easy Listening music and tight punch for the movies.

Thanks for the feedback!

GuitarheadCA

Doc knows his stuff, and he is 100% right on this one

The servo he is talking about is a feature in Velodyne's higest line (HGS) and various other high end subs. It takes a reading of the position of the sub thousands of times per second, and makes sure it's lined up with the incoming signal, thus vastly reducing distortion and cleaning up the sound. It is a feature NOT inclueded in the CHT series.

What the CHT series DOES have is an anti-clipping circuit that will adjust for imput levels higher than what they should be so the sub doesn't bottom out and the amp start clipping.

Guitarhead

PS, I would go with two 10s for mostly music

VR3

Just get 2 gigantic 18 inch concert subwoofers.
Nah jk, I vote for the 2 15's, actually I vote for SVS

rs159

Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
Just get 2 gigantic 18 inch concert subwoofers.
Nah jk, I vote for the 2 15's, actually I vote for SVS

I vote for two SVS PCi 16-46 That should be more than enough and will get you deeper than the Velo. The first time you hear it hit something subsonic - hold on, and make sure you went to the bathroom recently.

Or, like MX said get some 20" theater woofers. That should be plenty musical enough :rolleyes:

Tour2ma

C'mon guys... hamzahsh isn't shopping for rec's here, just guidance on a choice. Follow Doc’s example and honor that unless hamzahsh asks for other rec’s.

hamzahsh

I think 1 15" Velodyne CHT-15 is going to be more than enough for my use. Also I'm not a bass freak, I want to hear other speakers as well.

I'm very thankful to all of you. Thanks for the help.

Dr. Spec

I am a bass freak, but not in the sense you are implying. Proper calibration means that the sub will never overwhelm the other speakers.

What WILL happen even with proper calibration, is if you try to approach realistic playback levels for HT, most single subs will either bottom out, waffle, distort, or self limit on the hottest, deepest, and most challenging passages of DVDs.

There is nothing worse than being in the heart of the action and hearing your sub give up the ghost - what a bummer - back to reality, lights on, assess damage, yada, yada.

The truth is, at realistic HT volumes, SPL bass peaks will approach anywhere from 110-115 dB. Many DVDs drop into the 20-30 Hz region at full signal strength, and that is a mighty big load for all but the strongest and best built subs. Often it requires two decent subs to get the job done right.

Ever heard the famous Ring Drop in the LOTR opener reproduced properly at 113 dB? It will rearrange your hair and the room decay lasts at least 1/2 second. Most subs either bottom out or outright ignore the really deep stuff in this passage.

Ditto on The Haunting "the cold" scene in Chapter 10. There is a 4 second passage with a very strong 22 Hz fundamental that most subs don't even TRY to play. It hits 108 in my room and blurs my vision. I LOVE that scene.

Doc

hamzahsh

Thanks Dr. Spec, I'm agree with you. I love the deep bass like you've mentioned but what I'm worring about the drowning of the other speakers. My other problem is the room I don't have a very large room. It's only 11X15 feet. The other problem is it is going to be a condominium not a house. Right now I live in an apartment and pay rent. In July I'll move into my new condomium.

The price I'm going to pay for my Velo 15" would be $430 US about $600 CDN. through my employee discount. Otherwise they sell it for $1200 CDN. , $860 US.

As you know now that I do have some issues with the room size plus the condominium issue. Price is not a very big issue to me. Also the deal is awesome 50%. The Velodyne CHT-15" got wonderful reviews at www.audioreview.com

One of the sales man told me that get 2 10" Velodyne CHT-10 intead of 1 15"
but I think Velodyne 15" is a deeper sub the 10". Adding 2 subs mean adding more bass but not the deepness.

I'm very thankful to you that you recommend me to get 2 15" but it would be nice to have if I've a very large room.

Dr. Spec

Yes, the 15 digs deeper and it should be fine for a smaller room. It's a good sub.

Remember to calibrate. If you do, no sub - no matter how big/poweful - will ever overpower the other speaks.

Good luck!

Doc

MichaelJ

Doc,
I was just wondering ... when you get 110-115 db out of your sub during movies, is it set at the output level calibrated to match your other speakers, or do you boost the bass when watching movies.

I calibrated my speakers using the Radio Shack meter after getting that advise from this forum, but I have not used the meter while actually watching movies.

With the base output set to the calibrated level, music sounds great, but I do bump up the bass volume about 10% when watching movies, especially action movies.

I agree with you on the LOTR; it certainly sounded a lot better after I added my sub. The sub makes you feel the weight of the ring and it adds that low rumble in several parts of the movie that just adds to the fear factor.

Mike J

Dr. Spec

Originally posted by MichaelJ
Doc,
I was just wondering ... when you get 110-115 db out of your sub during movies, is it set at the output level calibrated to match your other speakers, or do you boost the bass when watching movies.

I calibrated my speakers using the Radio Shack meter after getting that advise from this forum, but I have not used the meter while actually watching movies.

Mike J

Mike:

I calibrate to Reference Level using Avia's Guide To Home Theater. Master Volume 00 and all test tones adjusted to 85 dB with the meter placed exactly where my head normally would be when seated.

I calibrate the subwoofer about 3-4 dB "hot" for movies, and flat for music. My AVR can remember the sub settings for both.

So my SPL peaks are at the seat with the sub running 3-4 dB hot. I have never spun LOTR at Reference Level - the sub can't take it. I'm in the process of remedying that, however.

Ed

rs159

And what's the Doc gonna do? Another PC+? or two, or three, or four

HBombToo

Originally posted by Dr. Spec


I have never spun LOTR at Reference Level - the sub can't take it. I'm in the process of remedying that, however.

Ed

Care to share your plan???

HBomb

Dr. Spec

Originally posted by HBombToo


Care to share your plan???

HBomb

PB2-Plus

http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_pb2_plus.htm

I have a "little" spot set aside for it. Should be here in a few weeks (rubbing palms together).

Don't know if I want two cylinders, a PB2-Plus, or maybe keep my cylinder AND the PB2-Plus.

I'm picky and we'll see how it performs and how the curves match-up to the cylinder.

The cylinder is a known commodity so if I get another one, I'll already know what to expect. But the PB2-Plus is an intriguing unknown. I'm interested in the sound quality and the FR curves (particularly the 20 Hz tune) of the PB2-Plus.

Geez, if I run both the PC+ and the PB2+, I'll be nipping at the heels of the B4-Plus in terms of total output capability.

Doc

PETERNG

Just get one good decent Sub, with proper calibration and positioning of the sub, you will get very good results. Adding an additional sub to the system, you make your system become more complicate, it will require more time to get them work properly, in most case you may not get better results other than dealing with the bass phasing nightmare, but if you want to spend more money, be-sure to spend it wisely to get what you want. The only question I'm going to ask you is: How do you feel about wearing two watches at the same time, well, figures it out, I'm sure... my .02 cents.

gshisme

In July I'll move into my new condomium. [/B]

knock knock.."yes officer, what is it? "

hamzahsh

Originally posted by PETERNG
The only question I'm going to ask you is: How do you feel about wearing two watches at the same time, well, figures it out, I'm sure... my .02 cents.

One watch is enough for me. I personally don't like to buy electronics/speakers over or under $1000 US items. For me online purchases of DVDs, CDs or little items are alright. I checked the reviews for SVS subwoofers at www.audioreview.com and I was very impressed especially the one Dr. Spec has the cylinder type sub.

The other thing is I work for Best Buy Canada in Digital Imaging Dept. & in Home Theatre, we don't sell good subs. The only best in the store we got is the JBL 12" PB12L somethin' but its not as good as Velodyne subs. There is another Canadian company called Future Shop which is now the division of Best Buy Canada. We all can get the employee discount there as well and they got there best sub which is Velodyne 8",10",12" & 15" sub. So why not take an advantage of an employee discount. They sell it for $1200 CDN. I can get it for $437 CDN. On top of this I've to add 10% and then 15% tax.

Also I read lot of reviews about Velodyne subs. They make one of the best subwoofers in the world. I've another option which is buying 2 10"s but 2 10s are going to get me more bass but not the depth. I also want to know how 2 subs sounds in reality if they are properly calibrated. What they add more, better image. I think bigger subs do make the difference even if its only one.

Polk Audio RTi Series are not a high-end speakers they are mid-end with high-end performance. Samething with Velodyne CHT series and they do match the type speakers I'm using.

It is very hard to find really good subs in Toronto where I live and even if I do they'll cost a lot of money and beside that I'm going to live in a condominium so its not worth it 'cause I'll never be able to take the full advantage of my HT system.

Online purchases are kind of expensive
especially in case of subwoofers which weighs a lot, plus the duty and tax in Canada is really what killing everybody here.

I hope you guys understood what I'm talkin' about and the issues I'm dealing with but anyways I'm an enthusiast like one of you and love my HT. I'd appreciate your comments.:)

Dr. Spec

Regarding twin subs:

You will get the most volume increase (6 dB) by stacking or otherwise co-locating them.

If you place them apart, you will see more like a 3-4 dB increase in volume.

If the first sub displays an excellent in-room FR curve, then just plop the second one on/next to the first and be done with it.

If the first sub has FR curve problems in the room, then placing the second sub in a different location can sometimes help smooth out the curve and result in better sound.

Harmon International has some decent white paper on multiple sub set-ups and they suggest initially placing each sub along the same wall, 1/3 the distance from each corner.

Regardless of the number of subs or the location configuration, experimentation with sub placement is integral to achieving the best overall FR curve in your room.

Doc

MichaelJ

Originally posted by Dr. Spec


Mike:

I calibrate to Reference Level using Avia's Guide To Home Theater. Master Volume 00 and all test tones adjusted to 85 dB with the meter placed exactly where my head normally would be when seated.

I calibrate the subwoofer about 3-4 dB "hot" for movies, and flat for music. My AVR can remember the sub settings for both.

So my SPL peaks are at the seat with the sub running 3-4 dB hot. I have never spun LOTR at Reference Level - the sub can't take it. I'm in the process of remedying that, however.

Ed

Doc,

MichaelJ

Originally posted by Dr. Spec


Mike:

I calibrate to Reference Level using Avia's Guide To Home Theater. Master Volume 00 and all test tones adjusted to 85 dB with the meter placed exactly where my head normally would be when seated.

I calibrate the subwoofer about 3-4 dB "hot" for movies, and flat for music. My AVR can remember the sub settings for both.

So my SPL peaks are at the seat with the sub running 3-4 dB hot. I have never spun LOTR at Reference Level - the sub can't take it. I'm in the process of remedying that, however.

Ed

Doc,
Is it necessary to calibrate at 85db? I calibrated mine at 70db, which is about the level at which I watch movies.

An 85db level in my 13.5 by 15 foot room would be very loud.

I did use the meter while listing to LOTR; with volume at just under 70db, the explosion in the opening scene registered 105db. The very low frequency rumble is awesome. My sub is running at only 30% of its max volume, so no problems there. The sub can register down to 14Hz, so I think that is were that really low rumble comes from.

I'm not sure I want to listen at 85db, but I might try that for some scenes. You say you do not listen at the 85db reference level; what is the average level when you listen to movies?

Thanks
MikeJ

Dr. Spec

Originally posted by MichaelJ

An 85db level in my 13.5 by 15 foot room would be very loud.

I'm not sure I want to listen at 85db, but I might try that for some scenes. You say you do not listen at the 85db reference level; what is the average level when you listen to movies?

Thanks
MikeJ

Hi Mike:

There is a difference between balancing all the speaker levels (which can be done at any volume for the test tones), and calibrating to Reference Level (which must be done at either 75 dB or 85 dB depending on the specific disc).

The whole point of calibrating a system to Reference Level is that it (or any level below it) would be the same volume in any room for any given DVD scene. It is a universal benchmark by which we can all experience the same playback level.

The fact that I use Master Volume 00 is not relevant, it is only for convenience. I could use any combination of Master Volume and individual speaker levels (which on my Denon go from -12 to +12) to achieve 85 dB on the Avia test tones.

But since I DO use Master Volume 00, my individual speaker level settings required to hit 85 dB on the test tones in MY room all end up in the +2 to +5 range.

In a smaller room, I wouldn't need them that high to hit 85 dB on the tones - maybe in the -3 to 0 range.

In a larger room, I might have to wick them up to the +5 to +8 range to hit 85 dB.

See what I'm getting at? The calibration level is always the same - what varies from room to room is the amount of power required to achieve that level.

So if we both calibrate to Ref Lev in our HT rooms, if we both play LOTR at Reference Level, the playback volume in both rooms will be the same, even though the power requirements will probably be quite different.

To answer your first question - yes, it IS necessary to calibrate to Ref Lev if we are to compare notes on Master Volume settings and SPL peaks for any given scene.

To answer your second question - I usually listen at anywhere from -15 to -10 (with Reference Level being 00), depending on the DVD.

BTW, the Sauron "reverse sweep" explosion only reaches about 50 Hz at its deepest point, although it IS very loud.

The famous "ring drop" DOES extend strongly into the low 20 Hz range, and should reach almost the same exact peak volume as the Sauron explosion. If it does not, your sub is checking out early in terms of deep extension and power.

I get about 112 dB SPL peaks on both scenes at -14 Master Volume setting with the sub calibrated about 4 dB hot.

Doc

Tour2ma

Originally posted by hamzahsh
I personally don't like to buy electronics/speakers over or under $1000 US items.

Pretty much narrows your options there sparky... ... sorry, couldn't resist...

Seriously, Doc addressed most of the points you made in your last post, except one, imaging. Imaging should not be a factor with a proper sub. The bass it produces should be difficult to locate, not producing an image.

Many so-called subs, including many at BB, are reaching into upper bass frequencies (>100 Hz), where localization definitely occurs, to compensate for bass deficient satellite speakers, e.g., Bose. In this case you need two bass "modules" to construct a reasonble soundstage. But we are no longer talking sub-woofer here.

I agree you should not turn your back on a good sub at a 60% discount. Why not buy the one 15 and see if it is satisfactory? If not, grab #2 later.

My $0.02 (US) worth....