Bi-Wiring

gene stangel · May 2003

Dumb question but how do you bi-wire speakers when the amp has only one set of terminals? CS-400 center channel.

F1nut · May 2003

Here, complements of bionicmushroom.

http://www.home-cinema-guide.co.uk/biwire3.htm

Tour2ma · May 2003

gene,

No such thing as a dumb question...

As the link F1 posted shows, it's the speaker, not the amp that determines whether you can bi-wire or not. For true bi-wiring, be sure to remove the jumpers on your CS400.

If you were to use one pair of outputs from an amp for one pair of speaker inputs, and a second amp out channel for the other speaker inputs, that would be bi-amping. It's shown in the link below.
http://www.soundstage.com/synergize/synergize031998.htm

F1nut · May 2003

It's the tag team, one - two punch.

Tour2ma · May 2003

Shall we move on to the WWF?

BeginnersLuck · May 2003

World Wildlife Foundation?

I believe it's the WWE now...hehe!!!

-BL

HBombToo · May 2003

I'll bring the beer.

F1nut · May 2003

Hell yeah, we can dazzle them with clear highs, baffle them with a wide soundstage and shake the ground they stand on with SDA bass. If all else fails, then we'll drop a couple of SDA's on them. GO TEAM GO!!!

brettw22 · May 2003

I have a weird question............

If you have a pair of bi-wire cables, and you don't like the overall sound of them, can you still use them as basic cables if you re-install the jumper plates and only connect one set of the speaker ends? I'd think that would work, but figured why not ask..........

polkatese · May 2003

Brett,
that's interesting thought, wouldn't it becomes a double run of a single speaker wire? is this with respect to your system? or hypothetical?

brettw22 · May 2003

Originally posted by polkatese
Brett,
that's interesting thought, wouldn't it becomes a double run of a single speaker wire? is this with respect to your system? or hypothetical?

I've ordered a set of bi-wire cables, but if I don't like the sound, I'm just curious if I can still use them (it's better wire than the basic) as non bi-wire cable to still get a pretty good boost in sound without wasting the money put out on them.......

F1nut · May 2003

I think that would depend on what brand you bought. If they have a network box like MIT, then no. If it's just wire and the low/high wires are of the same material you should be able to.

brettw22 · May 2003

The cables that I've got on order are the Z2B's from Monster.

I think that it would work, but I just figured better to ask and see before I tried it. I'm sure that if I was to not use the second set of ends, that I'd have to tape them up or something so they didn't cross and touch and loop back to the receiver.......that wouldn't be pretty I assume....

F1nut · May 2003

LOL, you assume correctly.

Tour2ma · May 2003

OK, one more time... you do NOT have to tape up or even disconnect the 2nd pair of leads. IF they are wired correctly in the bi-wire configuration, i.e., in phase, if you just add the jumpers back to the speakers, nothing is going to "blow up". I ran this way for 12 years. It is, in effect, just like increasing the gauge of your wire.

F1, what is the function of your network box? External crossover or other?

BTW, proud of y'all for not jumping on brett for even the consideration of the fact that he might not like the sound of bi-wire.

Dr. Spec · May 2003

Originally posted by Tour2ma
BTW, proud of y'all for not jumping on brett for even the consideration of the fact that he might not like the sound of bi-wire.

Since most of the controversy rages over whether or not bi-wire improves the sound AT ALL, it is unlikely it will sound worse.

In fact bi-wire detractors make the strongest argument that it CAN'T sound worse because according to them in theory bi-wire would be no different than regular wiring with the brass jumper removed and replaced with a wire jumper.

Regardless, I'm a wire skeptic myself, and bi-wired because I could, and because it looks cool. There are several websites that discuss in detail the theory behind bi-wire and the best of them I have posted here in the past and it seems it has the theoretical potential to sound "different". Remember that link, tour? Whether "different" equates to "better" is another story entirely.

Nevertheless, I remain open minded that my current selection of wire is holding my system back, and I have accordingly bought the M1.4 bi-wires from Dan, and they should arrive in a few days, along with a length of M14-4 bulk bi-wire for my CS400i.

A full report, as honest and impartial as I can make it, is pending. If it sounds a lot better, it can be attributed to the cable itself, not the bi-wiring, since I am already bi-wired across the front stage.

Tour2ma · May 2003

Doc,
I remember a couple of the links, which as I recall included the speaker manufacturer who first noticed the benefits of dual posts to permit bi-wiring yes? In the end I still could not get my brain around the theory put forth. I just can't make it work in my head, which is not the same thing as it actually working in practice.

I agree that it should not sound worse, unless wired half out of phase in one or both channels. Which might actually be fun to play with I mean think of the same frequency range in both channels wired 180 deg out of phase to the other range and then reversing all so the other range is out of phase. :cool:???

Not that you were necessarily implying otherwise, but the quote you pulled was a sincere compliment to the Club's bi-/ high-wire devotees' restraint in this instance. Just pleased that folks did not automatically jump in and proclaim that brett will instantly be transported to audio nirvana, etc.

As I recall Doc, bi-wiring was no revelation for you, but replacing the jumpers on your f/x1000s with 12 ga wire did produce and audible benefit. Correct? Another test to add to my list bi-wire vs. single with stock jumper vs. single with wire jumpers.

brettw22 · May 2003

Tour....

Thanks for commending those who chose not to jump on my ****.

My comment about the potential to sound worse isn't really about it being worse as much as it is different as Doc mentioned. The type of music that I listen to primarily is techno/electronic music, so I don't know that the *TYPE* of music is a direct correlation between the performance between a bi-wire'd speakers vs. not. Different is the word, and if the sound from my music is smoothed out because of the use of a bi-wired cable, then that's not something that I want because I prefer to have the blunt, in your face feel from that kind of music.

I don't remember if i had read a post or started one about whether or not certain *TYPES* of music would benefit more from a speaker that was bi-wired or not. That was why i asked if I don't like the way that the bi-wired speakers sounds, and I decided to keep the wire for the thicker gauge and better transferrance of signal, I don't want to have 2 loose ends hanging at the end and risk them touching, thus looping the signal right back to the receiver to do damage. That wouldn't be good. Ultimately I'm talkin all hypotheticals right now until I get the cables and hear what they sound like. I'm sure that there are some people that may feel that the bi-wire investment wasn't for them imparticularily(after they made the purchase), and may still have them connected just because they don't know if it's ok to disconnect and go back to the old way with their new cable. Maybe a small minority, but still wouldn't hurt to find out, capiche?

Dr. Spec · May 2003

Originally posted by Tour2ma As I recall Doc, bi-wiring was no revelation for you, but replacing the jumpers on your f/x1000?s with 12 ga wire did produce and audible benefit. Correct? Another test to add to my list? bi-wire vs. single with stock jumper vs. single with wire jumpers?.

That pretty much sums it up. I wasn't terribly critical about evaluating my initial change to bi-wire. I hooked it up, noted it didn't sound worse, and quickly moved on to other more pressing matters like movies, sex and beer, not necessarily in that order.

Then when I got the 1000's, I had no room for bi-wire runs, so I did indeed isolate the change to just the brass jumper, and yes, it does alter the treble character for the better. A slight but audible change.

So the question remains, does bi-wiring alone improve the sound vs. just replacing the POS brass jumper with decent wire.

Regardless, I STILL won't be able to answer that question with the M1.4's, because my front end is already bi-wired. If the M1.4's kick **** over the Lowes/HD stuff, then the improvement will be strictly in the wire quality.

I have faith Tour, that YOU will take the reigns and charge on with a bolstered spirit and definitively answer this age old question. May God be with you on this holy quest. We await your glorious return with baited breath. OK, the truth is I don't want to do it, so you can.......fair enough?

Doc

polkatese · May 2003

Originally posted by Dr. Spec
I have faith Tour, that YOU will take the reigns and charge on with a bolstered spirit and definitively answer this age old question. May God be with you on this holy quest. We await your glorious return with baited breath. OK, the truth is I don't want to do it, so you can.......fair enough?

Doc

I can't wait to hear the response..:D

Tour2ma · May 2003

Actually polka this is what caught my eye right off...

Originally posted by Dr. Spec
.... quickly moved on to other more pressing matters like movies, sex and beer, not necessarily in that order.

Beer was first, movies second, right Doc?

As for the rest... sure I'll take up the challenge, Only thing is, I do not have A-B-X, double blind capability, which is what it takes to produce a meaningful test. So if you're willing to read my subjective impressions, I'm willing to put them out there.

But back to brett
Trust me man you dont have to remove any wire to go back, just put the jumpers back on. Even at mantis used wire emporium prices you dont need to throw away half your bucks.

Take a look at this thread, RuSsMan took up the challenge on an analogos circuits debate and showed no harm will come your amps or speakers way http://clubpolk.polkaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9659

RuSsMaN · May 2003

Tour, keep your ears open, the 2nd annual Texas Polk Gathering is in the initial planning stages now.

Looking for about 10 to show (you included), a Polk rep (possibly), free audio goodies, and guess what, double-blind tests on interconns, speaker cables, and whatever else anyone is interested in.

Details to follow in the next couple of weeks.

Cheers,
Rooster

ken brydson · May 2003

Originally posted by RuSsMaN
Tour, keep your ears open, the 2nd annual Texas Polk Gathering is in the initial planning stages now.

Looking for about 10 to show (you included), a Polk rep (possibly), free audio goodies, and guess what, double-blind tests on interconns, speaker cables, and whatever else anyone is interested in.

Details to follow in the next couple of weeks.

Cheers,
Rooster

Damn, and I'll be in Dallas next week. Bummer

Tour2ma · May 2003

Originally posted by RuSsMaN
Tour, keep your ears open, the 2nd annual Texas Polk Gathering is in the initial planning stages now.

They are now WIDE open... Thanks for the heads up, I'd better start training.
Now, WTH did I do with that Whiskey??? Can you say, "Glenmorangie"? I knew you could...

Tour2ma · May 2003

Originally posted by ken brydson
Damn, and I'll be in Dallas next week. Bummer

Not if you live in Austin...

ken brydson · May 2003

Originally posted by Tour2ma
Not if you live in Austin...

Nope. Try Seattle:)

Dr. Spec · May 2003

That's it - I'm quitting the forum. You KNOW I won't be able to make it to Texas in a few weeks, you bastage!

I'm hosting my own LOTR FOTR/TT DTS-ES 6.1 marathon weekend with Balvenie single malt scotch as a return salvo across your bow. And Tour will come and ride the JackRabbit wooden roller coaster at Seabreeze, and everything. Nana nana boo boo.

Doc

RuSsMaN · May 2003

Doc, I'm talking sept or so. Start saving those airline miles, if you get here, I'll take care of the rest, promise.

Cheers,
Rooster

brettw22 · May 2003

Originally posted by Tour2ma
But back to brett
Trust me man you dont have to remove any wire to go back, just put the jumpers back on. Even at mantis used wire emporium prices you dont need to throw away half your bucks.

Ok.....maybe I'm not getting this........

If it's ok to put the jumpers back on, with both sets of ends connected to the posts, why do people even bother taking them off in the first place? I always got the impression from people's reponses to those considering using bi-wire cables that leaving the jumper plate on would cause problems.

That's why I asked about what to do with the extra ends if i disconnected one set of the ends, and put the jumper back on........my question does make sense, right?

Tour2ma · May 2003

I'm with you. Your question makes perfect sense.

Jumper removed is part of true bi-wiring. The theory is that separate wire runs to each of the speakers' pairs of posts eliminates an "interference" or bleed through between the high and low frequency crossovers that is permitted by the jumper.

There is a myth in the Club that were you to "bi-wire" with the jumpers in place, something bad will happen either to the amp or the speakers. This is the reason you assumed that you had to remove one pair of leads and isolate them somehow (actually it would be best to remove both ends, if you were to remove any). However, it is not true that damage will occur, so long as both wires are run "+" to "+" and "-" to "-". I ran this way for 12 years, no problems. It is not true bi-wiring with the jumpers in place, it is just doubling the amount of wire carrying the signal to your speakers.

I have attached a really poor graphic in an attempt to show why adding jumpers back to a bi-wire arrangement is not a disaster.
1 shows an amp double wired to a speaker with one pair of terminals. No one would say this is a bad or damaging arrangement. Many do this if they feel their wire is a bit on the light side and do not want to use heavier gauge wire for whatever reason.
2 shows the same double wire arrangement to a speaker with two pairs of posts with the jumper in place. The presence of the jumper makes the two pairs of posts effectively act like one pair from a circuit standpoint.
3 shows the same as above except one of each of the leads has been moved from the lower to the upper post. Again the use of the jumper effectively turns the two pairs of posts in to one pair.
From a circuit analysis standpoint the wiring depicted in 1, 2, and 3 are identical.
4 depicts true bi-wiring. Note that the only difference between 3 and 4 is that the jumper has been removed.

Bottom line you can add the jumper to a bi-wire arrangement, and no boom will occur you are no longer bi-wiring, you are just double wiring, but no boom

F1nut · May 2003

Originally posted by Tour2ma
what is the function of your network box? External crossover or other?

Good question, the answer is.....I'm not really sure. I know it has something to do with time correction and energy storage, but other than that, MIT isn't saying.

Bi-Wiring

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