Tone Controls
Cpyder
Posts: 514
So after much consideration, I've realized that in most cases, tone controls are evil. For example, with much of today's music, the recording studio loves to max out the loudness of their tracks. In this case, turning up the bass, for example, on an equalizer causes very audible clipping regardless of the volume of your system. But what about lowering the volume of maxed out tracks? Can this remove clipping? I know you're still altering the original signal, but what if the original was mastered horribly. (In some cases, with the volume on the track already causing clipping)? In this case do tone controls produce a "better" sound? (at least to your ears)
Post edited by Cpyder on
Comments
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No. You can't fix stupid.-Kevin
HT: Philips 52PFL7432D 52" LCD 1080p / Onkyo TX-SR 606 / Oppo BDP-83 SE / Comcast cable. (all HDMI)B&W 801 - Front, Polk CS350 LS - Center, Polk LS90 - Rear
2 Channel:
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McIntosh 2205 (refurbed)
B&W 801's
Transparent IC's -
I an ideal world, tone control is not needed. For the same reason, in an ideal HT environment, there is no need for Audyssey MultiEQ. But they serve its purpose.I am sorry, I have no opinion on the matter. I am sure you do. So, don't mind me, I just want to talk audio and pie.
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Told ya! And no you can't just lower the levels to "fix" the high levels the recordings are made at. They use compression to make all the sounds (soft and loud) play at the same output level.
It's a travesty how many recordings are made today.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
There's no way to get back crushed dynamic range. You can give your approach a shot, but I doubt you'll be satisfied with the results. "Better Sound" is not likely, you'll simply be messing up something worse than it already is.Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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Tone controls suck
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What's a tone control?
~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
I don't even have a balance control. It is what it is. Sometimes it sounds incredible sometimes it sound like S. Garbage in garbage out Bliss in bliss out.
ScottI like speakers that are bigger than a small refrigerator but smaller than a big refrigerator:D -
you can't polish a ****...Pro-ject RM-9.1 w/ Grado Sonata 1 -> USP-1 -> RPA-1 -> Vienna Acoustics Mozart Grands
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You can't pick one up from the clean end either.I like speakers that are bigger than a small refrigerator but smaller than a big refrigerator:D
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Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I've always found this discussion funny. Some of you guys are worried that a tone control will alter the sound the way the artist meant it to be, despite it being already butchered by the fine folks in the mixing/recording studio.
JoeAmplifiers: 1-SAE Mark IV, 4-SAE 2400, 1-SAE 2500, 2-SAE 2600, 1-Buttkicker BKA 1000N w/2-tactile transducers. Sources: Sony BDP CX7000es, Sony CX300/CX400/CX450/CX455, SAE 8000 tuner, Akai 4000D R2R, Technics 1100A TT, Epson 8500UB with Carada 100". Speakers:Polk SDA SRS, 3.1TL, FXi5, FXi3, 2-SVS 20-29, Yamaha, SVS center sub. Power:2-Monster HTS3500, Furman M-8D & RR16 Plus. 2-SAE 4000 X-overs, SAE 5000a noise reduction, MSB Link DAC III, MSB Powerbase, Behringer 2496, Monarchy DIP 24/96. -
Tone controls add distortion, nuff said."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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Musicians use tone controls all of the time. Guitar and bass amps all have tone control circuits and they do get used. Recording desks have EQ . The mic selected to record any source has a frequency response that the recording engineer considers when determining which mic to use on each instrument. The mastering process and again EQ is applied.
When I'm trying to pick out(transcribe) bass lines from CD's guess what I use the EQ to raise the level of the Bass. If I'm trying to pick out acoustic guitar runs I might lower the Bass EQ.
So no there is nothing evil about EQ. It is a tool for you to use or not use. -
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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hehe
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pearsall001 wrote: »Kinda like tubes.
Shed ep you wascally wabbit! -
Tone controls add distortion, nuff said.
Yeah right, and it's really noticeable too.
JoeAmplifiers: 1-SAE Mark IV, 4-SAE 2400, 1-SAE 2500, 2-SAE 2600, 1-Buttkicker BKA 1000N w/2-tactile transducers. Sources: Sony BDP CX7000es, Sony CX300/CX400/CX450/CX455, SAE 8000 tuner, Akai 4000D R2R, Technics 1100A TT, Epson 8500UB with Carada 100". Speakers:Polk SDA SRS, 3.1TL, FXi5, FXi3, 2-SVS 20-29, Yamaha, SVS center sub. Power:2-Monster HTS3500, Furman M-8D & RR16 Plus. 2-SAE 4000 X-overs, SAE 5000a noise reduction, MSB Link DAC III, MSB Powerbase, Behringer 2496, Monarchy DIP 24/96. -
Grand slam!
Sure does, when I bring up the highs a bit the noise become so unbearable with all that distortion...I really don't know how anybody can listen to that. Add a bit of bass or midrange and the music becomes undistinguishable from a diesel engine.
JoeAmplifiers: 1-SAE Mark IV, 4-SAE 2400, 1-SAE 2500, 2-SAE 2600, 1-Buttkicker BKA 1000N w/2-tactile transducers. Sources: Sony BDP CX7000es, Sony CX300/CX400/CX450/CX455, SAE 8000 tuner, Akai 4000D R2R, Technics 1100A TT, Epson 8500UB with Carada 100". Speakers:Polk SDA SRS, 3.1TL, FXi5, FXi3, 2-SVS 20-29, Yamaha, SVS center sub. Power:2-Monster HTS3500, Furman M-8D & RR16 Plus. 2-SAE 4000 X-overs, SAE 5000a noise reduction, MSB Link DAC III, MSB Powerbase, Behringer 2496, Monarchy DIP 24/96. -
Do you have any gear with a tone control bypass? On some gear it does make a subtle difference.
As for tubes, they add even order distortion, which many find pleasing. Odd order distortion is what hurts your ears."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
pearsall001 wrote: »Kinda like tubes.
No, tubes add a different kind of distortion (2nd order rather than 3rd), not really more, but it depends on the circuit design and the tube used. Most tubes are more linear than most transistors. Non linearity is defined as distortion.
Negative feedback is used to make a circuit more linear and negative feedback adds even more distortion to a circuit. Negative feedback is used more in solid state than in tubes, but some push/pull tube designs use negative feedback, generally less than an equivalent SS circuit. There are some **** tube designs out there which add distortion.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Tone controls? I don't need no steenkin tone controls.The nirvana inducer-
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TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »Tone controls suck
I second that!;)Make it simple...Make it better! -
Tone controls add distortion, nuff said.
...and change the original sound. I never liked tone controls or balance.That is why in my diy amps I never use them (and never will).Make it simple...Make it better! -
Ok, ok, ok.....honestly?
Tone controls are good for some systems. When the system is lacking or accentuating certain frequencies or in some cases close to clipping at what many consider "normal listening levels"? Eh, tone controls may [usually do] make the sound, well sound better to the listener. No disrespect to those who are in that place within their own personal audio journey......trust me, I've been there.
That said, when a system reaches a certain level of performance / reproduction? Tone controls are evil "knobs of sin" to the audiophile. What they do is add distortion to the original signal, add an unnatural balance to the overall spectrum of frequencies and almost 95% of the time [IME] boost just a certain frequency which also alters that of the frequencies closest to the frequency the manufacturer is trying to boost in the first place.
What I'm trying to say is that.......let's say a manufacturer makes a bass "boost" at a frequency of [just for the sake of discussion] 65Hz, ok? This affects the frequencies around that boost as well. Depending on the manufacturer, the frequencies affected could be as low as 45 Hz and as high as 75 or higher Hz. That's a big part of the spectrum of frequencies affected by that one tone control.
That's just the bass control.
In other words, you may want to boost [as a listener] the frequency of a bass guitar. The end result of you adjusting the "control" may affect the drums, but the Cello, Basson, French horn, Tuba, Kick drum, Tympani, and what many desire for some punch.....the Tom drum.
Why would you want to affect all of these instruments and add distortion or an altering of the original signal when all you want to do is boost the bass guitar? Seems a little bass ackwards to me.
Now a note to those who may not know.....IME, I have found that a defeat of all tone controls bypasses circuitry and even though no tone controls were used? When defeated, the sound improved and most all aspects got clearer, smoother and more realistic. With my own audio journey at least.
Now, when I finally got a pre that had no tone controls whatsoever? That's when the real sound came in to fruition. With proper amplification [and a little bit of tubes in the mix...], my sound whether it be frequencies or overall sound has improved dramatically.
My point is that though some of you may consider tone controls as an improvement, when you reach a certain point in your audio journey tone controls can be detrimental to the end result as to what hits your ears, instead of a perceived improvement.
Happy listening either way. ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
comfortablycurt wrote: »Tone controls? I don't need no steenkin tone controls.
Every time I change the tone controls I burn my fingers. -
In one of my systems I mess around with I used a passive pre-amp from Yamaha the MVS-1 combined with a MX-630 amp. The amp has volume output controls. It is a very clean sound when you cut out all tone controls. On the other hand I have a SAE preamp and parametric equalizer, I find it interesting to modify the sound to your particular taste, EQ's and tonal controls do not mesh well with SDA speakers. Old monitor speakers on the other hand, especially the M10's did tend to benifit from the parametric EQ. Some gear just sound right together. It is a process to find the right combination.Polk HT system 1: LSIC, LSI25 mains, LSI F/X rears, Lsi F/X rear centers,
Yamaha RX-V2500 System, Carver A753 3 channel amp.
Polk HT system 2: , SRT system with f/x 1,000's rear speakers on 7.1 system currently using Onkyo TX-RZ820 receiver, powered by Sunfire Grand Theater amp
Polk Speaker collection: SDA SRS 1.2tl x 2, SRT system, SDA SRS 2 P/B, SDA 2A, SDA 1C Studio, SDA CRS+, Monitor 7B & 4, SRS 3.1tl, RTA 15tl, LS90, LSI 9 -
Nice man nice.:cool:Ok, ok, ok.....honestly?
Tone controls are good for some systems. When the system is lacking or accentuating certain frequencies or in some cases close to clipping at what many consider "normal listening levels"? Eh, tone controls may [usually do] make the sound, well sound better to the listener. No disrespect to those who are in that place within their own personal audio journey......trust me, I've been there.
That said, when a system reaches a certain level of performance / reproduction? Tone controls are evil "knobs of sin" to the audiophile. What they do is add distortion to the original signal, add an unnatural balance to the overall spectrum of frequencies and almost 95% of the time [IME] boost just a certain frequency which also alters that of the frequencies closest to the frequency the manufacturer is trying to boost in the first place.
What I'm trying to say is that.......let's say a manufacturer makes a bass "boost" at a frequency of [just for the sake of discussion] 65Hz, ok? This affects the frequencies around that boost as well. Depending on the manufacturer, the frequencies affected could be as low as 45 Hz and as high as 75 or higher Hz. That's a big part of the spectrum of frequencies affected by that one tone control.
That's just the bass control.
In other words, you may want to boost [as a listener] the frequency of a bass guitar. The end result of you adjusting the "control" may affect the drums, but the Cello, Basson, French horn, Tuba, Kick drum, Tympani, and what many desire for some punch.....the Tom drum.
Why would you want to affect all of these instruments and add distortion or an altering of the original signal when all you want to do is boost the bass guitar? Seems a little bass ackwards to me.
Now a note to those who may not know.....IME, I have found that a defeat of all tone controls bypasses circuitry and even though no tone controls were used? When defeated, the sound improved and most all aspects got clearer, smoother and more realistic. With my own audio journey at least.
Now, when I finally got a pre that had no tone controls whatsoever? That's when the real sound came in to fruition. With proper amplification [and a little bit of tubes in the mix...], my sound whether it be frequencies or overall sound has improved dramatically.
My point is that though some of you may consider tone controls as an improvement, when you reach a certain point in your audio journey tone controls can be detrimental to the end result as to what hits your ears, instead of a perceived improvement.
Happy listening either way. -
If you use tone controls, does it make you a bad person??2 Channel rig:
LSi9"s (modified xover's) & HSU Sub
Harman Kardon HK 990 Amp
Onkyo C-S5VL SACD
Music Hall MMF 5.1
Furman Elite 15
HT rig:
HK AVR-745 & Polk Monitor Series -
joeparaski wrote: »Sure does, when I bring up the highs a bit the noise become so unbearable with all that distortion...I really don't know how anybody can listen to that. Add a bit of bass or midrange and the music becomes undistinguishable from a diesel engine.
Joe
You should remove those EQ's from your system. It will take some adjustment of your part getting use to what the music is suppose to sound like, but once you do, you'll never go back.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk
