Soundcard or External DAC

Cpyder

I'm planning on selling my Marantz SR5003 receiver because it's not rating properly for the resistance of my Lsi9s and keeps getting sent into protect mode while watching movies. I was planning on getting a stand-alone 2 channel amp. The output quality of my desktop computer is not all that great. Should I consider getting a decent soundcard or an external DAC? I've heard soundcards can sometimes put out odd noises which is probably interference from the motherboard and other computer components. A DAC should resolve this issue but may be more expensive. What do you guys think I should do?

BlueFox

Are you watching movies in 2 channel and not surround? How does the system work with just music and not movies?

Keep the Marantz and use it as a pre-amp/processor. Get an external amp, and an external DAC, along with a USB to RCA digital convertor. I assume you are using the PC as a music server, and not a video server. Buy a BR DVD player to complete the audio/video link.

MANSKITO

Cpyder wrote: »

I'm planning on selling my Marantz SR5003 receiver because it's not rating properly for the resistance of my Lsi9s and keeps getting sent into protect mode while watching movies. I was planning on getting a stand-alone 2 channel amp. The output quality of my desktop computer is not all that great. Should I consider getting a decent soundcard or an external DAC? I've heard soundcards can sometimes put out odd noises which is probably interference from the motherboard and other computer components. A DAC should resolve this issue but may be more expensive. What do you guys think I should do?

I just want to take a swing at this.

Even if you have an external DAC or USB sound card it is still exposed to any and ALL electromagnetic interference that it would of been if it was inside the computer case. Because the USB data buss(or any other data buss) is not controlled locally any and ALL data must in some way shape or form pass through the CPU and/or a chip set. That means that every single bit of information or "note" passes through the INTERNAL motherboard(and all that entails) and then and ONLY THEN dose the data reach your External sound card or DAC. The information WAS EXPOSED to the electromagnetic interference that was inside the case there is NO getting around that fact if you want to use a computer as a source.

No hard feelings but I'm just getting tired of that reason being listed as a reason to not get a internal sound card it gets under my skin.

There are a billion and 1 reasons why a sound card (internal or external) could put out a funny noise outside of just interference.

Do not buy an external sound card or DAC for that reason because its a none issue and should be treated as such. Buy an internal or external sound card/DAC for its sound quality not for fear that it might be exposed to more or less electromagnetic interference.

Lowell_M

go with an internal sound card with a spdif out. Then buy a nice external DAC (or processor of you are looking for 5.1)

Face

Most mobo's nowadays have an optical and digital coax out.

MANSKITO

Face wrote: »

Most mobo's nowadays have an optical and digital coax out.

True enough but not all have DTS or the many other higher ress sound formats that sound cards offer. And generally sound cards offer better sound than the mobo sound even if you use digital out-put. But as a digital transport gos a bit is a bit. But some would argue (me included) that some bits are better then others.

MANSKITO

Lowell_M wrote: »

go with an internal sound card with a spdif out. Then buy a nice external DAC (or processor of you are looking for 5.1)

+1 to that

Face

FYI, I'm using the ASUS Xonar HDAV1.3 Slim. Digital coax to my Peachtree Nova(2 channel), HDMI to my pre/pro for HT.

For music only, the ASUS Xonar Essence had a nice write up in stereophile.

EDIT: You're correct, even being used as a transport only, sound cards can sound different.

MANSKITO

Deleted

doctorcilantro

External USB is pretty nice when done async. The 1s and 0s don't carry noise on their backs, well as jitter when pushing to another DAC via digital maybe......the interface itself (Toslink, RCA coax) can become contaminated and the output probably contains more jitter than spec. If you are saying powerline and EMI contamination make down a USB cable...maybe? the point of things like async USB are to separate the word clock from the audio data (i.e. reduce jitter).

There is plenty of information on the web about how PCI cards, or external cards can suck. Some do and some don't. Many today are properly manufactured and shielded etc. but there are other more important issues than obvious noise like EMI.

The clocks on the cards can be problematic, then you have your switching power supply, and you have EMI generated by the operation of the PC itself. The M2Tech Hiface is an excellent little device for example. Great clock and it is probably galvanically isolated from the PC.

With the wrong cables (i.e. floated shield) my power amp can pick up the PC generated EMI; mouse movements can be heard as fuzz and cpu operations as static. This is with a low power PC that I think Manskito is familiar with, as I posted about it elsewhere. I had the PC disconnected from my DAC, and pre and power, when connected, would pick up that EMI. Cables are important when PCs are around. This noise is obvious though; you'd know if you have it. I had never had this issue until recently when I moved some cables around.

I don't think it's a question or internal or external; the Lynx cards are great and I like the EMU stuff. Even my 1616M external has AC switching power supply and even has 12V on the RJ45 data link cable to the PCI card.

The question is whether or not the clock and/or converters and resulting DA (or pushing digital to another DAC) is any good.

Your not going to find true 75ohm BNC outputs or AES/EBU XLR outputs on many internal sound cards, or external for that matter, although you can get balanced 1/4" on many.

DC

Cpyder

Thanks for you help guys! I'll be back later with a couple more questions.

doctorcilantro

I edited my post to be more concise and clear on a few points, but when I attempted to save it, didn't work.

MANSKITO

doctorcilantro wrote: »

External USB is pretty nice when done async. The 1s and 0s don't carry noise on their backs, well as jitter when pushing to another DAC via digital maybe......the interface itself (Toslink, RCA coax) can become contaminated and the output probably contains more jitter than spec. If you are saying powerline and EMI contamination make down a USB cable...maybe? the point of things like async USB are to separate the word clock from the audio data (i.e. reduce jitter).

There is plenty of information on the web about how PCI cards, or external cards can suck. Some do and some don't. Many today are properly manufactured and shielded etc. but there are other more important issues than obvious noise like EMI.

The clocks on the cards can be problematic, then you have your switching power supply, and you have EMI generated by the operation of the PC itself. The M2Tech Hiface is an excellent little device for example. Great clock and it is probably galvanically isolated from the PC.

With the wrong cables (i.e. floated shield) my power amp can pick up the PC generated EMI; mouse movements can be heard as fuzz and cpu operations as static. This is with a low power PC that I think Manskito is familiar with, as I posted about it elsewhere. I had the PC disconnected from my DAC, and pre and power, when connected, would pick up that EMI. Cables are important when PCs are around. This noise is obvious though; you'd know if you have it. I had never had this issue until recently when I moved some cables around.

I don't think it's a question or internal or external; the Lynx cards are great and I like the EMU stuff. Even my 1616M external has AC switching power supply and even has 12V on the RJ45 data link cable to the PCI card.

The question is whether or not the clock and/or converters and resulting DA (or pushing digital to another DAC) is any good.

Your not going to find true 75ohm BNC outputs or AES/EBU XLR outputs on many internal sound cards, or external for that matter, although you can get balanced 1/4" on many.

DC

LOL, Mouse movements really? Nah I agree with most of that. My point really was that if you have a pc as source, moving your card inside/outside of the case dose not remove much if any EMI. I just wanted to try and correct that myth.

That is I think a nice point about cables. But the thing is because of the nature of optical cables they pick almost 0 EMI so again I think the best thing to do would be to get an internal card with optical out to an external DAC.

I believe if noise is an issue that would be a pretty solid choice.

On a side note i m rather confused by one of your points you said that a system clock or local card clock can cause problems. I gonna be honest and say I've never heard of such a thing I really don't understand how EMI could effect a system clock. Just on a personal note I would like to get a little more detail on that if don't mind.

doctorcilantro

Yeah, it's crazy. While Toslink is immune to EMI and RFI, the conversion from Toslink interface itself (conversion from light to voltage) is questionable in many's ears.

And remember, the EMI is seeping in between preamp and power amp, or my USB DAC direct to power amp....with certain cables. So we may be worrying needlessly about components which were designed to be in PC environments (i.e. sound cards), whereas things like tube rectified power amps or tube phono stages may be more susceptible to the presence of PCs.

With regard to the clocks, I was trying to point out that some clocks are sub-par on these cards. That's a given, and I meant to say that I agree with you about EMI rejection for the most part, and that cabling and clock are probably bigger performance factors to consider.

One argument is that jitter is exacerbated by AC power and the electrically noisy PC environment, thus the load on the pc is supposed to affect the performance of the card as high frequency transients etc. are handicapping the PCI card. I don't think I buy it, and I'm no expert; these are just the arguments many make online. I have been meaning to run a Prime95 torture test while playing back from my PCI card, but I'm selling 1616M. However, it has been argued that PSupply is 80% of an amp's fidelity.

btw - I have a USB Maverick DAC hooked up visa USB, and my Peachtree Nova was connected via 1616M. The noise I referred to would occur with the PC disconnected from the stereo system, and since it would only occur when a DAC or preamp was connected to the power amp, I ruled out the EMI was been flushed back into the power line by the PC; it was all being pulled in by the cables acting as an antenna. Very strage to hear the mouse movements as fuzz when the PC across the room is completely disconnected electrically from the power amp and speakers.

MANSKITO

doctorcilantro wrote: »

Yeah, it's crazy. While Toslink is immune to EMI and RFI, the conversion from Toslink interface itself (conversion from light to voltage) is questionable in many's ears.

And remember, the EMI is seeping in between preamp and power amp, or my USB DAC direct to power amp....with certain cables. So we may be worrying needlessly about components which were designed to be in PC environments (i.e. sound cards), whereas things like tube rectified power amps or tube phono stages may be more susceptible to the presence of PCs.

With regard to the clocks, I was trying to point out that some clocks are sub-par on these cards. That's a given, and I meant to say that I agree with you about EMI rejection for the most part, and that cabling and clock are probably bigger performance factors to consider.

One argument is that jitter is exacerbated by AC power and the electrically noisy PC environment, thus the load on the pc is supposed to affect the performance of the card as high frequency transients etc. are handicapping the PCI card. I don't think I buy it, and I'm no expert; these are just the arguments many make online. I have been meaning to run a Prime95 torture test while playing back from my PCI card, but I'm selling 1616M. However, it has been argued that PSupply is 80% of an amp's fidelity.

btw - I have a USB Maverick DAC hooked up visa USB, and my Peachtree Nova was connected via 1616M. The noise I referred to would occur with the PC disconnected from the stereo system, and since it would only occur when a DAC or preamp was connected to the power amp, I ruled out the EMI was been flushed back into the power line by the PC; it was all being pulled in by the cables acting as an antenna. Very strage to hear the mouse movements as fuzz when the PC across the room is completely disconnected electrically from the power amp and speakers.

I really thinking about buying a maverick dac to use as a head phone amp and and dac.

actually i m going to start a new theard on that.

Any ways thanks for your time.

Cpyder

BlueFox wrote: »

Are you watching movies in 2 channel and not surround? How does the system work with just music and not movies?

Keep the Marantz and use it as a pre-amp/processor. Get an external amp, and an external DAC, along with a USB to RCA digital convertor. I assume you are using the PC as a music server, and not a video server. Buy a BR DVD player to complete the audio/video link.

Yep. 2 channel movie watching for me. I can't afford an all LSi surround sound setup right now. My pair of 9s do movies plenty of justice for now. And my computer is both used as a music and video server. As far as your recommendations: while I do like the idea, I'm trying to keep this project low cost for right now. With an external amp, external DAC, and blu-ray player, I'd probably be looking at at least $1000.

MANSKITO wrote: »

LOL, Mouse movements really? Nah I agree with most of that. My point really was that if you have a pc as source, moving your card inside/outside of the case dose not remove much if any EMI. I just wanted to try and correct that myth.

That is I think a nice point about cables. But the thing is because of the nature of optical cables they pick almost 0 EMI so again I think the best thing to do would be to get an internal card with optical out to an external DAC.

I believe if noise is an issue that would be a pretty solid choice.

On a side note i m rather confused by one of your points you said that a system clock or local card clock can cause problems. I gonna be honest and say I've never heard of such a thing I really don't understand how EMI could effect a system clock. Just on a personal note I would like to get a little more detail on that if don't mind.

If I connect my computer to my receiver using the 3.5mm headphone jack. I also hear noise created by the mouse. I have no clue why this occurs, but only when I move my mouse do I get a quiet grinding noise. Very odd. It doesn't exist when I use optical out.