Cable comparison data

BlueFox

One thing I have found missing from all the speaker cable threads is data. Generally, there is some from those who feel cables do matter, but little from the other side. The positive data is usually from a personal experience. While this data is subjective, it still is valid. Personal experience can reflect measurements, especially if you know what to measure.

Being an engineer, I like data about a subject. I am also open-minded, so that data can take any reasonable form, as long as it is verifiable. For this subject, personal experience is the preferred data.

On one hand, I do not care what someone listens to, or what equipment they use. On the other hand, I do care when someone tries to tell me I am wrong in some personal activity, and their reason is they read it somewhere. And that is the impression I am getting from the “cables make no difference” crowd. They read it somewhere. Fine, there is nothing wrong with reading. That is how I usually learn something. I read about it, think about it, and if it seems reasonable try it.

What I am looking for with this thread is for those who feel speaker cables make no difference tell to us what cables they tried, the electronics used, any other thoughts they had while comparing the cables.

So, in the interest of science, tell us the cables used to reach the conclusion, “Cables make no difference”. Nothing more, nothing less. Just some data about what speaker cables were compared that resulted in the conclusion cables make no difference.

hearingimpared

Good luck on getting any of that information from them.

Matt34

Unless the comparisons are conducted unsighted I have very little interest in them. You have to remove the human bias factor and there is plenty out there to back that statement. It's really the bottom line in comparing two different products, weather it's cables, amps or sodas.

As an engineer I hope you can appericate that there is some science involved in this hobby.

I'll be the first to admit this is a very subjective hobby but when people throw science out of the way because they don't like what they might find it hurts the hobby by perpetuating false claims even if the reviewer thinks he/she was impartial.

hearingimpared

Matt34 wrote: »

Unless the comparisons are conducted unsighted I have very little interest in them. You have to remove the human bias factor and there is plenty out there to back that statement. It's really the bottom line in comparing two different products, weather it's cables, amps or sodas.

As an engineer I hope you can appericate that there is some science involved in this hobby.

I'll be the first to admit this is a very subjective hobby but when people throw science out of the way because they don't like what they might find it hurts the hobby by perpetuating false claims even if the reviewer thinks he/she was impartial.

I do, but I hate when these guys spew their "cables don't matter" mantra then post a bunch of links to back them up without having any experience themselves and the topper, totally disregard and dismiss the scientific evidence that DarqueKnight posts as "voo doo" science. He's a Phd in EE and gives very well thought out very detailed measurements with his posts regarding the topic at hand.

BTW Matt are you going to do what the OP asks and post up some of the power cords, ICs, and speaker wire you've tried in your rig?

steveinaz

Being a fact lover myself--and not believing in much I can't experience first hand, I was very skeptical years ago about the idea of cables making a difference. I stumbled onto this discovery by accident, simply wanting something better built than the 99 cent IC's that came with components back in the day. Our PX in Germany had a huge sale on all kinds of audio stuff, and a big fat beefy set of Audio Tecnica RCA cables with gold plated connectors were marked down significantly. I decided, what the heck, and bought enough pairs to rewire my system. I was not only impressed---but shocked by the improvement. I didn't expect there to be any sonic benefit, just piece of mind knowing I was running a better quality built cable.

Nay sayers always point to "science"....well, here's some science for you; wire is like any other resisitor or inductor--resistance, capacitance, impedance---can all effect frequency levels throughout the spectrum. This is well known and documented. Therefore, how is it so hard to understand that a different cable can impact sonic properties?

Here's an experiment even the most skeptical can do to illustrate my point. Providing your system has the resolution; replace your 75ohm spec'd digital cable and try a variety of regular analog IC's as a digital cable from your transport to your DAC or AVR--some will make little difference, some will be extrememly different. I tried a Kimber Hero analog IC as a digital cable, it was aweful. Fat, bloaty bass; spitty treble, and a subdued midrange. If copper is copper, how could this be?

steveinaz

Let's address the "placebo effect" next, a popular argument. Does the placebo effect sometimes have an effect? Sure it does, I don't dismiss it's existence--and peoples' ability to get caught up in it. But a key for placebo effect to take place is that the psychology has to be there to support it; you have to be expecting or wanting a change to occur. When you look at my example in the first post, I wasn't expecting nor wanting a change to occur, I simply wanted better build--so how could placebo be a factor when it wasn't an expectation?

Another element, I'm a cheap-****. Believe me when I tell you that if $1.50 IC's sounded the same as $285 IC's---I'd be buck-fiftying it all night long. So where's the psychological "setup" that could lead to me being a victim of placebo effect in that scenario?

Having said that, I have tried cables that made no difference from the ones they replaced, as well as cables that did make a difference. IMO, many people overstate these benefits by using words such as "huge difference" "incredible bass" "far better" "substantial improvement" when I think in reality, cable differences are rather subtle---of course YMMV. Some even suggest changing cables as a troubleshooting measure when someone complains about how their system sounds---I think this is over-the-top; if your system sounds bad, a simple cable change is like throwing bricks in the Grand Canyon; it isn't going to help, there's a bigger problem with that system. Again, all my opinion, based on my experiences.

mdaudioguy

Is it possible to measure or quantify the perceived separation of sounds that most people report - i.e. the concept of a sound stage, with various instruments and sounds dispersed across a seemingly wider area than one might expect two speakers to be able to project?

Stereo sound has always been fascinating to me, going all the way back to my late 1970s Soundesign "system." As my equipment has improved, so to has my perceived sound stage. Or, maybe it's just my imagination, like a placebo... Anyhow, I'm preparing to try out some better ICs than the Radio Shack specials I'm currently using (one set is actually a 3-wire composite video cable ), and I'm prepared to imagine a perceived improvement. Who cares if I can't measure it?

steveinaz

Well, it requires thinking outside of the box. I certainly notice a hazy, out of focus soundstage with typical cheap multi-strand speaker wire; even with my significant hearing loss in the left ear.

Can I explain why this happens?---hell no; I just know it does, and that's all that matters.

mdaudioguy

steveinaz wrote: »

Well, it requires thinking outside of the box. I certainly notice a hazy, out of focus soundstage with typical cheap multi-strand speaker wire; even with my significant hearing loss in the left ear.

Can I explain why this happens?---hell no; I just know it does, and that's all that matters.

My take on it is that it can never be known exactly how anyone perceives anything. All the processing is done internally in the brain. Let's say we both walk into a room and notice a red chair. Can I be sure that you perceive that particular shade of red in exactly the same way that I do? No. Perhaps it's significantly darker than the red chair you have in your house or subtly lighter than the one I have in mine. And then, another person enters the room and says, "Hey, that's a red chair, exactly like the ones you guys have." Make sense? Some people can discriminate differences and some cannot, while others possibly can too, but choose not to. They just buy the cheapest red chair they can find, but for some reason, they feel the need to tell everyone else who paid more for a red chair they really liked, that they paid too much for it... In real life, I usually just ignore those types, but on here, they can be a distraction.

steveinaz

Agree, good points. I think we forget about physiological differences as well, such as the shape of the outer ear. Someone that has ears the point forward would be more sensitive to treble/midrange---and likely would prefer a more laid back speaker; where someone with ears that are flatter to the head might want more top-end extension. There's tons of variables at play, that's why its always best to follow your ears, and not someone elses.

hearingimpared

steveinaz wrote: »

Agree, good points. I think we forget about physiological differences as well, such as the shape of the outer ear. Someone that has ears the point forward would be more sensitive to treble/midrange---and likely would prefer a more laid back speaker; where someone with ears that are flatter to the head might want more top-end extension. There's tons of variables at play, that's why its always best to follow your ears, and not someone elses.

Great point Steve. I have a little jig I made to forced my bad ear forward to equalize the difference in hearing between my two ears.

AND NO IT IS NOT THE ONES CANDYLIQUOR MADE!:D;)

heiney9

BlueFox wrote: »

What I am looking for with this thread is for those who feel speaker cables make no difference tell to us what cables they tried, the electronics used, any other thoughts they had while comparing the cables.

So, in the interest of science, tell us the cables used to reach the conclusion, “Cables make no difference”. Nothing more, nothing less. Just some data about what speaker cables were compared that resulted in the conclusion cables make no difference.

Those people will dance around these questions and use every analogy and description and link to tell you why cables don;t matter. All of the evidence will be 2nd hand and never from their own first hand experiences.

Good luck

H9

madmax

I've seen people post data they obtained with different cables. The problem is the data is only as good as the equipment used to obtain it. Going through a sound card on a computer is not likely to show differences in high end cables.
madmax

BlueFox

heiney9 wrote: »

Those people will dance around these questions and use every analogy and description and link to tell you why cables don;t matter. All of the evidence will be 2nd hand and never from their own first hand experiences.

Apparently. All I am looking for in the way of 'data' is for someone to provide some firsthand experience on how they came to the conclusion speaker cables make no difference. I would think with all the negative posters in the various threads saying the same thing it should not be that difficult to get some data. If not then that implies none of the posters have any experience in the subject, and are just posting for the sake of posting.

To make up an example, if somebody provides data that using electronics ‘X’ with speakers ‘Y’ they switched between hardware store 12 gauge and Mapleshade Clearview Double Helix Plus cables, and heard no difference, then I could take their position seriously. I would wonder why they heard no difference, but at least they tried.

On the other hand, if they say they switched between Home Depot 12 gauge, and Lowes 12 gauge, and heard no difference then I cannot take their position seriously.

If they have not tried anything ,and just base their opinion on reading something on the Internet, then they have no position, and are, for all intents and purposes, just a troll.

dorokusai

Another thread on this? Awesome.

Erik Tracy

BlueFox wrote: »

Apparently. All I am looking for in the way of 'data' is for someone to provide some firsthand experience on how they came to the conclusion speaker cables make no difference. I would think with all the negative posters in the various threads saying the same thing it should not be that difficult to get some data. If not then that implies none of the posters have any experience in the subject, and are just posting for the sake of posting.

To make up an example, if somebody provides data that using electronics ‘X’ with speakers ‘Y’ they switched between hardware store 12 gauge and Mapleshade Clearview Double Helix Plus cables, and heard no difference, then I could take their position seriously. I would wonder why they heard no difference, but at least they tried.

On the other hand, if they say they switched between Home Depot 12 gauge, and Lowes 12 gauge, and heard no difference then I cannot take their position seriously.

If they have not tried anything ,and just base their opinion on reading something on the Internet, then they have no position, and are, for all intents and purposes, just a troll.

But - you don't get it - the burden of proof is on YOU to provide 'data' that cables DO make a difference - that is the scientific argument purported by the AVS 'object'ivists. They on the other hand only have to trundle out outdated and suspect blind a/b tests and post links and demand YOU provide the 'scientific data/proof' - otherwise you are shouted down as delusional.

madmax

No proof is really needed either way. My case as an example is as follows. I had close to $10K of MIT cables on my system. When hard times and job loss grabbed me I sold them all. Later after cleaning up the mess I re-purchased the same type of cables. Seriously, would anyone in their right mind pay out hard earned money to re-purchase something that didn't provide a quality difference? If you can't hear the difference why buy cables when a hearing test is most likely needed?
madmax

BlueFox

Erik Tracy wrote: »

But - you don't get it - the burden of proof is on YOU to provide 'data' that cables DO make a difference - that is the scientific argument purported by the AVS 'object'ivists. They on the other hand only have to trundle out outdated and suspect blind a/b tests and post links and demand YOU provide the 'scientific data/proof' - otherwise you are shouted down as delusional.

All I want is personal experience for data. Nothing more, nothing less.

I went from hardware store 12 guage (forgot price, maybe .20/foot) to Clearview Double Helix Plus ($425 8' pair), and heard a tremendous improvement. Wow, where did that come from was my reaction. Later I upgraded to Omega Mikro Planar 1 ($825 8' pair), and it bought out more and clearer bass, and tamed the high-end. Since I mostly listen to classical I was surprised at the low end that had been missing with the other cables. For rock or rap it is not so apparent.

Fine, I now believe speaker cables make a difference, an obvious difference.

Now, let's hear the data from the other side. What was tried, and the results.

Erik Tracy

madmax wrote: »

No proof is really needed either way. My case as an example is as follows. I had close to $10K of MIT cables on my system. When hard times and job loss grabbed me I sold them all. Later after cleaning up the mess I re-purchased the same type of cables. Seriously, would anyone in their right mind pay out hard earned money to re-purchase something that didn't provide a quality difference? If you can't hear the difference why buy cables when a hearing test is most likely needed?
madmax

But where is your 'data' that PROVES the difference?

The AVS 'object'ivists will shout you down as succumbing to the placebo effect or just rationalizing your belief....god forbid that they try a comparison for themselves....

madmax

Erik Tracy wrote: »

The AVS 'object'ivists will shout you down as succumbing to the placebo effect or just rationalizing your belief....god forbid that they try a comparison for themselves....

I typically don't care what ignorant people think or say. Usually they are bench racers anyway. Most of us are into higher end audio, why argue with people who have some sort of agenda which prevent them from realizing a benifit?
madmax

98Badger

BlueFox,

I've seen this same "discussion" on every audio fourm I've participated in and it always degenerates into the same thing. Why not put out the invitation for anyone with cables different from yours to bring them over so you can get some firsthand data yourself? I have to believe there are some members of this forum who are close enough to your location to make this possible. I would be interested to hear your thoughts if such an event ever took place.

As far as finding someone who has tried numerous cables and having them list the gear used, I doubt it would change any strongly held beliefs here. My prediction is that if that person didn't hear a difference, his/her opinion would be dismissed because the wrong equipment was used or they did not have enough experience in knowing what to listen for. Those that want to believe will. Those that don't, won't. The arguements from both sides have been the same for a long time and I don't see that changing any time soon.

hearingimpared

98Badger wrote: »

BlueFox,

I've seen this same "discussion" on every audio fourm I've participated in and it always degenerates into the same thing. Why not put out the invitation for anyone with cables different from yours to bring them over so you can get some firsthand data yourself? I have to believe there are some members of this forum who are close enough to your location to make this possible. I would be interested to hear your thoughts if such an event ever took place.

As far as finding someone who has tried numerous cables and having them list the gear used, I doubt it would change any strongly held beliefs here. My prediction is that if that person didn't hear a difference, his/her opinion would be dismissed because the wrong equipment was used or they did not have enough experience in knowing what to listen for. Those that want to believe will. Those that don't, won't. The arguements from both sides have been the same for a long time and I don't see that changing any time soon.

I truely believe that that would not be the case here in Club Polk. There maybe some questions but I think we accept each other at our word as to what they hear and what they don't.:)

BlueFox

hearingimpared wrote: »

I truely believe that that would not be the case here in Club Polk. There maybe some questions but I think we accept each other at our word as to what they hear and what they don't.:)

Exactly. The problem here is wth those who never try to listen to different cables, and then say there is no difference.

heiney9

Look at all the cable naysayers posting in this thread.

S-I-L-E-N-C-E.

That's why I call them trolls, because if they were interested in discussing the topic they would be posting in here. Instead they like to stir the pot.

Nice try Bluefox, but they will never actually discuss what experiences they've had.........because they haven't had any.

H9

F1nut

S-I-L-E-N-C-E.

Yeah Brock, it's deafening.

concealer404

The blind test doesn't matter in my case either way. I can't see my cables even without a blindfold, sooo..... yeah. Enough on that.

tonyb

heiney9 wrote: »

Look at all the cable naysayers posting in this thread.

S-I-L-E-N-C-E.

That's why I call them trolls, because if they were interested in discussing the topic they would be posting in here. Instead they like to stir the pot.

Nice try Bluefox, but they will never actually discuss what experiences they've had.........because they haven't had any.

H9

You got that right....:):)

jinjuku

I'm still waiting for Mr. Engineer to list his testing and measurement protocol.

I would suggest you simply follow a double blind A/B/X and statistically score the results...

concealer404

jinjuku wrote: »

I'm still waiting for Mr. Engineer to list his testing and measurement protocol....

I would suggest you simply follow a double blind A/B/X and statistically score the results...

Why exactly is the double blind test truly relevant, though?

heiney9

^^ see rattle the cage at the Zoo and they stir!!

You aren;t even answering the questions.............just side stepping see post #13

Matt34

heiney9 wrote: »

Look at all the cable naysayers posting in this thread.

S-I-L-E-N-C-E.

That's why I call them trolls, because if they were interested in discussing the topic they would be posting in here. Instead they like to stir the pot.

Nice try Bluefox, but they will never actually discuss what experiences they've had.........because they haven't had any.

H9

I just don't feel like starting another multi-page "debate" on this very topic. I would think most here, despite what your beliefs are, are getting tired of these threads popping up almost daily. (I understand where Bluefox is coming from but they always deteriorate into the same ad hominem bickering and fighting despite good intentions or not). Cables are just one small part in the equation yet 99% of the "battles" here are because of them and frankly the trolling is coming from both sides, weather you want to acknowledge it or not.

I would love to have a GTG with people on both sides and have a civilized discussion on the matter, I think points/counterpoints could be made and even some listening test could be conducted....and it would be fun!!

Enjoy the music and who cares what others think, call me a quitter but I'm giving up on expressing my views on this topic. It's not worth the time I spend on the intrawebs.;)

Just to point out the differences in mind set in regards to testing the difference in cables. While what Bluefox asks seems simple enough I just don't agree with the method as stated in my first post. There is just too much of a variance in testing ideology. I strongly believe in human bias playing a large effect in sighted testing, obviously many here don't. Trying to find a common ground from the get go is hard enough.

I hope none of this came off as anything but being sincere. Afterall, it's a kinder, gentler Army nowadays.;)