Not to be out done by GM...or Toyota, Ford says "We have hybrids too!..."

Jstas

"...and we're better at PR than you!"

From Consumer Reports...

Ford issues prompt fix for Fusion Hybrid brakes

We recently experienced a perceived brake failure with our 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid. We told Ford Motor Company about it and within days Ford instituted a "Customer Satisfaction Program," essentially a brake-system software fix, available free to all owners of Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan Hybrids made on or before October 17, 2009. (The build date can be found on the driver's door jam.)

Here's what happened:
As one of our senior engineers slowed for a stop sign at the turnoff to our test facility in East Haddam, Connecticut, the brake pedal went unexpectedly further down than normal but the car barely slowed. He zoomed through the turn, with brake-system warning lights illuminated on the dash. The car more or less coasted to a stop, with what our engineer described as minimal brake feel.

After switching off the engine and then restarting it, everything returned to normal—no warning lights and full braking capability. We then took the car to our local Ford dealership, where the service manager told us that a Technical Service Bulletin covered this problem.

The bulletin in question, coded TSB-09-22-11, described a situation much less scary-sounding than what we experienced. To paraphrase, it said that electronic interference might cause the electronic brake-by-wire module to switch itself off temporarily. If that happened, the braking system would revert to a backup conventional hydraulic mode that preserved braking capability, but the pedal will drop over an inch. When the engine is restarted, the electronic braking system would resume.

2010-Ford-Fusion-Hybrid
We contacted Ford headquarters in Dearborn, Michigan, to ask what they knew about the problem. Ford representatives said they were aware of brake-related software settings that had led to some customer complaints, but no case of brake failure. Ford's Safety Office flew two brake-system specialists out to inspect our car at the dealership and report back to us.

The factory representatives confirmed that our car's brakes had experienced a fail-safe mode incident, but they didn't see a brake failure. They brought our car back to the Consumer Reports' Auto Test Center with its electronic brake module disabled so we could see for ourselves. Our test director and senior test engineer tried it out. The pedal travel was long and the pedal felt mushy underfoot, but when the pedal was pushed firmly down, the brakes did stop the car effectively.

When that module cuts out, the brake pedal needs to be pushed just over an inch farther down than normal before the conventional hydraulic system applies the brakes. Could our test engineer just not have pushed the pedal down far enough when the electronic module quit? He certainly didn't think so at the time, but that would at least explain why he thought he had no brakes.

Ford engineering representatives explained that the software threshold for establishing a fault in the regenerative brake system was set too sensitively, causing the system to transition to conventional brakes when it was not necessary.

Our case may be rare but is not unique. We located five other similar accounts of perceived brake failure. One report was filed with the government's auto-safety complaints database www.safercar.gov and others with an enthusiast sites, such as fordfusionforum.com. Their comments included these:

"...while driving down the road the brakes suddenly hit the floor and there was minimal resistance."
"...turned off the parkway into Manhattan and the brakes failed! The car was on, drove and steered fine, but there were no power brakes."
"...moving at around 3 miles an hour and I press the brakes and nothing. It was like you never touched them."

None of those cases reported a crash or injury.

Putting a stop to the brake problems
Whether our engineer, a 30-year testing veteran, hit the brakes as hard as he should have or not, we believe other drivers may react similarly. We are glad Ford has initiated a repair program and will notify all known owners by mail starting in early February 2010.

Ford estimates that approximately 18,000 2010-model Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan Hybrids could be vulnerable to the electronic brake-software glitch but only a tiny fraction will ever exhibit it. Ford explained, "The software threshold to transition from regenerative brakes to conventional brakes can cause the system to transition to conventional brakes unnecessarily."

In a statement, Ford said, "We have received reports that some drivers have experienced a different brake feel when the hybrid's unique regenerative brakes switch to conventional hydraulic braking. They may initially perceive the condition as loss of brakes even though the vehicle has full braking capability. When this occurs, our system maintains full conventional brakes and full ABS function."

Ford added, "There have been no injuries related to this condition."

If you own a Fusion or Milan Hybrid made on or before October 17, 2009 we strongly recommend that you have your local dealer perform the brake-system software update specified by Ford's "Customer Satisfaction Program 10B13."

—Gordon Hard

concealer404

Didn't Ford buy their hybrid technology from Toyota? Or am i hallucinating?

Jstas

concealer404 wrote: »

Didn't Ford buy their hybrid technology from Toyota? Or am i hallucinating?

Christ, you really are daft, aren't you?

Ford did not buy anything from Toyota. The hybrid systems are similar but Ford's was developed in house and actually beat Toyota's current hybrid system to market. The Escape Hybrid was available to fleet buyers a year and a half before the Prius hit the roads. Ford uses their extensive fleet vehicle program to test new technology like hybrid systems, hydrogen systems, LPG systems and electric systems. They have done this for decades.

concealer404

After additional research, it seems they bought into 20 patents that Toyota held concerning hybrid technology.

Jstas

concealer404 wrote: »

After additional research, it seems they bought into 20 patents that Toyota held concerning hybrid technology.

If you are going to quote "research", post your links.

concealer404

Of course... that's only 20 of 370+, and i'm pretty sure you can't build a hybrid on 20 patents, so, game on.

Jstas

concealer404 wrote: »

Of course... that's only 20 of 370+, and i'm pretty sure you can't build a hybrid on 20 patents, so, game on.

Of course you can't provide any proof of your claims so I will do it for you and explain to you what you are reading because it's obvious you are incapable of comprehending English.

Read this article:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB107880303676250060.html

In this article, it states that "Toyota Motor Corp. of Japan said it agreed to provide Ford Motor Co. of the U.S. with various technologies used in its gasoline-electricity hybrid-system engines.".

It also states "Under the agreement, Toyota's hybrid-system control-technology patents will be licensed for use in Ford's own hybrid system.".

The reasoning?

"The technology provision also follows Toyota's agreement in 2002 to provide its gasoline-electric hybrid system to Nissan Motor Co. for five years starting in 2006."

In other words, Toyota patented some technology that is a fairly common and inexpensive way to manage the charging systems for the batteries. Nissan found it easier to just license the technology. Ford had already developed their own and saw the potential for a nasty legal battle. So Ford entered in to an agreement with Toyota to license patents, not buy technology from Toyota.

"Ford's own hybrid system will feature more than 100 unique patents. This year, Ford plans to introduce a hybrid version of its Escape sport-utility vehicle, the world's first fully hybrid SUV."

"Toyota and Ford also have agreed to license a variety of each other's emission-purification-technology patents for lean-burn engines.

Toyota patents licensed to Ford and its group companies include the Japanese company's nitrogen-oxide storage-reduction catalytic system, while Ford patents licensed to Toyota group companies cover nitrogen-oxide-control technology."

Ford and Toyota shared technology. Ford didn't buy anything from Toyota except a promise to not litigate over similar technology in patent court.

Jstas

Still more info, from Wikipedia with cited articles:

Development

The Escape Hybrid uses technology similar to that used in Toyota's Prius. Ford engineers realized their technology may conflict with patents held by Toyota, which led to a 2004 patent-sharing accord between the companies, licensing Ford's use of some of Toyota's hybrid technology[10] in exchange for Toyota's use of some of Ford's diesel and direct-injection engine technology.[11] Ford maintains that Ford received no technical assistance from Toyota in developing the hybrid powertrain, but that some hybrid engine technologies developed by Ford independently were found to be similar to technologies previously patented by Toyota, so licenses were obtained.[11] Aisin Seiki Co. Ltd., a Japanese automotive components supplier belonging to the Toyota Group, supplies the hybrid continuously variable transmission for the Escape Hybrid. While Toyota produces its third-generation Prius transmission in-house, Aisin is the only supplier of hybrid transmissions to other manufacturers. Friction has arisen concerning Aisin's allocation of limited production capacity and engineering resources to Ford.[11]

Sanyo Electric Co., which first produced hybrid car batteries in a joint venture with Honda,[12] built the 50 kg (110 lb),330V[13] 5.5 Ah (would make it 1.8kWh storage) , 250-cell nickel metal hydride (NiMH) battery pack for the 2005 Escape Hybrid.[14]

#10 ^ Wall Stree Journal Online - Toyota to License Hybrid Patents For Use by Ford - MARCH 9, 2004 -- http://online.wsj.com/article/SB107880303676250060.html
#11 ^ a b c Cars.com - Ford Slams Toyota on Hybrids - Reported by Christine Tierney, Detroit News, Aug 08 2005 -- http://www.cars.com/go/news/Story.jsp?section=news&subject=recent&story=080805storyaDN&referer=
#12 ^ Honda In Joint Venture With Sanyo To Produce Hybrid Car Batteries. 2002-04-20. Retrieved on 2007-08-07. -- http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0UDO/is_14_15/ai_85095848/
#13 ^ "Escape specs". Ford. http://www.fordvehicles.com/suvs/escapehybrid/features/specs/. -- http://www.fordvehicles.com/suvs/escapehybrid/features/specs/
#14 ^ "2005 Ford Escape Hybrid Electric Vehicle" (PDF). HEV America, U.S. Department of Energy Advanced Vehicle Testing Activity. 2005. http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/hev/escape2005hevamerica.pdf. Retrieved 2007-08-07.

NJPOLKER

Jstas wrote: »

If you are going to quote "research", post your links.

John,
My my pal from Indy hell. I would not take that from him :D:D:D

bobman1235

Screw the hybrids, I just wish Ford would bring the Focus RS here....

It's about the only FWD car I could see myself buying....

concealer404

John, didn't you go on a rant a month or so ago when people WEREN'T using google to find out about what you were talking about? Had something to do with public transportation? Yes. Yes you did.

jstas wrote:

God you people are idiots.

SEPTA = South Eastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority

This tool http://www.google.com will help keep you from looking like an ignorant tool. It's not just for finding ****, ya know?

So i heard you can use that nifty link that you've provided to find out what previous posters are talking about.

I'm glad you posted it, actually.. i'd never heard of it until November of 2009.

Try giving what you say a shot. It does wonders.

Hell, with what came up, you wouldn't even have to sort. Hit "I'm Feeling Lucky." It's a pretty cool feature.



Drew... i'm still trying to figure out what exactly you meant to say. :D

concealer404

baleeted

Jstas

concealer404 wrote: »

John, didn't you go on a rant a month or so ago when people WEREN'T using google to find out about what you were talking about? Had something to do with public transportation? Yes. Yes you did.

Try giving what you say a shot. It does wonders.

Hell, with what came up, you wouldn't even have to sort. Hit "I'm Feeling Lucky." It's a pretty cool feature.



Drew... i'm still trying to figure out what exactly you meant to say. :D

The Wall Street Journal link was one of the first links that came up when I entered "ford hybrid technology toyota" in to Google. WTF are you talking about?

Listen kid, it's clear that I am not your biggest fan. Don't challenge me if you are going to come to the fight unarmed.

Jstas

For those interested in more info, check out this article from Autoblog.

http://green.autoblog.com/2009/07/03/once-more-with-feeling-ford-does-not-use-the-toyota-hybrid-syst/

...in an op-ed piece published in the Wall Street Journal, Alan Reynolds of the Cato Institute starts by making a few decent points about fuel taxation and fuel economy rules. Unfortunately, he undermines himself with some blatant errors and misinformation. In discussing how Detroit automakers will deal with new fuel efficiency requirements, he makes the all-too-common mistake of referring to Ford's hybrid system as licensed from Toyota ("Similarly, Ford has the Toyota-licensed hybrid Fusion and will soon produce the European Ford Fiesta in Mexico").

The reality is that Ford independently developed its own hybrid system at the same time Toyota was doing its own. The basic architecture of both systems is the same and both are based on the concepts developed and patented by TRW engineers in the late 1960s. When Ford introduced the Escape Hybrid, Toyota went after the Blue Oval for infringing on its patents. Ford had patents of its own on the technology that Toyota was using. Eventually, the two companies reached a cross-licensing agreement that gives both companies the right to build their own systems. Such cross-licensing agreements are common in these kinds of cases, but Ford did not use the Toyota hybrid system. The only other company that uses Toyota's system is Nissan for its Altima hybrid, and they actually buy hardware from Toyota.

There is more info at the link.

By the way, that company, TRW, Thompson, Ramo, Woolridge, Inc.? Yeah, they were an American company involved in a number of businesses. They did everything from defense and aerospace to automotive applications and credit reporting. The number of brands under the TRW umbrella was impressive. They made everything from brake pads to point-of-sale systems to Automated Teller Machines (ATM) to optical systems on satellites. They were bought out by Northrup Grumman, another American company back in 2002.

Kinda funny how "innovative" Toyota is licensing patents filed by TRW 50 years ago.


No, I don't hate Toyota, I hate misinformation and uneducated opinions on the Internet.

nooshinjohn

Jstas wrote: »

Listen kid, it's clear that I am not your biggest fan. Don't challenge me if you are going to come to the fight unarmed.

deleted...

concealer404

I didn't really come to the fight unarmed. Ford bought 20 Toyota Hybrid tech patents for use in their vehicles. A simple google search, like you're so big on, would have verified it.

I'm not sure what i'm challenging to be honest. I don't even see what you posted in your first post.

I'm not challenging anything. Just asked a question, found my own answer, and decided to pass that info along.

Hell, it might not even be relevant to what your original post was. I don't know. It's the clubhouse, my post had Toyota AND Ford in it. Plenty relevant.

I AM very hurt that not everyone on the interweb that i haven't met in real life is a huge fan of mine, though. I think i'll go cry.

concealer404

Really i'm just trying to boost my post count. That's all.

AsSiMiLaTeD

It's actually pretty smart for all these other companies to be sneaking in their recalls and fixes during the Toyota fiasco. Everyone is going to be so focused on Toyota that they're not going to notice Ford doing anything.

Jstas

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

It's actually pretty smart for all these other companies to be sneaking in their recalls and fixes during the Toyota fiasco. Everyone is going to be so focused on Toyota that they're not going to notice Ford doing anything.

Ford has had 3 recalls since the Toyota thing started last fall. One was a Fed recall, two were manufacturer recalls over faulty parts. Honda has had two, BMW 2, GM like 4 I think it was, Nissan had a couple and so did Chrysler.

Recalls happen. But when you operate like Toyota does and share as many common parts across all platforms like they do to cut costs, when you do have a recall, it's catastrophically large.

The biggest issue is not the recall but Toyota's handling of the recall. It's been a PR disaster.

AsSiMiLaTeD

I would agree that for people like yourself who follow this kind of stuff closely, yes it's obviously a huge PR hit. But for the average consumer, sure they see what's on the news but they don't understand all the details and understand this at the same level that you do.

The question that remains is what kind of damage this is going to have in the eye of the general public. We can speculate all day, but we don't really know yet.