Does it matter how many tubes?

Pycroft
Pycroft Posts: 1,960
edited January 2010 in 2 Channel Audio
Hi all...

As many know, I'm looking for a preamp, and am considering tubes. Question: Does it matter how MANY tubes there are? I was lookign at something like this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160397690171&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

It only has two inputs, and it's small. I've seen big ones with lots of electronics, and 5 or more tubes. Does more always mean better?

James
2 Channel/HT:
Sony SS-M9 P's (ES version)
Sony SS-M1CN Center Channel
Polk RT800 Surround Speakers
Odyssey Stratos Dual Mono Amplifiers
TAD 150 Signature Tube Preamp
Harman Kardon HK354
Sony SACD Player
Post edited by Pycroft on
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Comments

  • disneyjoe7
    disneyjoe7 Posts: 11,435
    edited January 2010
    Just my $.02 here... but I think a tube addes 99.3% to tubeness, every other tube addes .004%.

    Speakers
    Carver Amazing Fronts
    CS400i Center
    RT800i's Rears
    Sub Paradigm Servo 15

    Electronics
    Conrad Johnson PV-5 pre-amp
    Parasound Halo A23
    Pioneer 84TXSi AVR
    Pioneer 79Avi DVD
    Sony CX400 CD changer
    Panasonic 42-PX60U Plasma
    WMC Win7 32bit HD DVR


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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,804
    edited January 2010
    Pycroft wrote: »
    Hi all...

    As many know, I'm looking for a preamp, and am considering tubes. Question: Does it matter how MANY tubes there are? I was lookign at something like this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160397690171&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

    It only has two inputs, and it's small. I've seen big ones with lots of electronics, and 5 or more tubes. Does more always mean better?

    James

    For strictly line level, I would opine that two is plenty (e.g., one two-section triode like a 6SN7 per channel); three if the rectifier is a vacuum tube. An ADC vacuum tube preamp designed by Mark Deneen (with phonostage) that passed through my abode some time ago had I]thirteen [/I]6DJ8s (6922s) in it! Some of those were active cathode loads for others in a strictly dual-mono configuration -- but that is a LOT of circuitry for a fairly simple tube preamp!
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,967
    edited January 2010
    Like anything else, build quality, parts used, has a say in the matter also, not just the amount of tubes. Lots of variables to consider.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • SolidSqual
    SolidSqual Posts: 5,218
    edited January 2010
    One tube for each channel is usually pretty good when done correctly. That being said, when you start adding tube rectifiers and other good stuff like that, greater performance can be had. I agree with Disneyjoe's sentiment, but I would modify it to say 99.3% with a tube per channel.
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,804
    edited January 2010
    FWIW, some stuff on vacuum tube linestages from one of my favorite vacuum tube amp designers.
    http://www.the-planet.org/linestage2.html
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,967
    edited January 2010
    http://cgi.ebay.com/Cary-Audio-Electronic-Supply-AE-3-Preamplifier_W0QQitemZ320480329521QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVintage_Electronics_R2?hash=item4a9e1dbf31

    Nice plain jane starter unit.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • SolidSqual
    SolidSqual Posts: 5,218
    edited January 2010
    tonyb wrote: »
    http://cgi.ebay.com/Cary-Audio-Electronic-Supply-AE-3-Preamplifier_W0QQitemZ320480329521QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVintage_Electronics_R2?hash=item4a9e1dbf31

    Nice plain jane starter unit.

    It's cheaper than the cheapest Chinese alternatives too.
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  • Pycroft
    Pycroft Posts: 1,960
    edited January 2010
    What,on average,would something like that go for? 200? 150? I don't want to pay more than it's worth. Thanks for the link. I look on audiogon, ebay, craigslist every day, but don't know enough about this stuff to make an informed decision. Thanks, and if you see anything else you think may work, don't hesitate to post it :)

    James
    2 Channel/HT:
    Sony SS-M9 P's (ES version)
    Sony SS-M1CN Center Channel
    Polk RT800 Surround Speakers
    Odyssey Stratos Dual Mono Amplifiers
    TAD 150 Signature Tube Preamp
    Harman Kardon HK354
    Sony SACD Player
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,804
    edited January 2010
    I peeked at that LRE preamp auction link. That is a high-gain preamp with EQ for MM phono/tape head use, not a "linestage". It is, in fact, more or less a copy of the classic Shure MM preamp. It's not what the OP is looking for (as best I can tell).
    http://www.vinylengine.com/library/shure/m65.shtml (registration required to d/l docs)

    I am lobbying for an EICO HF-85 :-)
    http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=245774&highlight=Eico

    EDIT: Yeah, the Cary "AES" stuff was/is nice, basic equipment at reasonable prices. Used to be available as kits; wish they still were!

    Speaking of kits, here's a couple of possible options if the OP isn't afraid of a little bit of solder/rosin fumes:
    http://www.bottlehead.com/store.php?crn=220&rn=430&action=show_detail
    http://www.transcendentsound.com/preampkit.htm
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  • Pycroft
    Pycroft Posts: 1,960
    edited January 2010
    Hardy -

    TRUST ME...you don't want me to have to put together ANYTHING! I take my crap to George's just to clean it because I don't want to take the top off myself. I may look at something wrong and screw it up :)

    So no to the Lafayette. I can't plug a CD player into the input for the 'tape' for example, and use it?
    2 Channel/HT:
    Sony SS-M9 P's (ES version)
    Sony SS-M1CN Center Channel
    Polk RT800 Surround Speakers
    Odyssey Stratos Dual Mono Amplifiers
    TAD 150 Signature Tube Preamp
    Harman Kardon HK354
    Sony SACD Player
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  • Pycroft
    Pycroft Posts: 1,960
    edited January 2010
    Still not sure what this means, "That is a high-gain preamp with EQ for MM phono/tape head use, not a "linestage". It has inputs for tape and phono based on the pictures. I can't just plug the RCA IC's from the SACD player in to the tape side to make it work? What am I missing?
    2 Channel/HT:
    Sony SS-M9 P's (ES version)
    Sony SS-M1CN Center Channel
    Polk RT800 Surround Speakers
    Odyssey Stratos Dual Mono Amplifiers
    TAD 150 Signature Tube Preamp
    Harman Kardon HK354
    Sony SACD Player
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited January 2010
    line stage=no phono stage
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,804
    edited January 2010
    sorry. what he said. You want a line-level preamp for a CD player or what-have-you.
    The "Tape" inputs on that thing are for a tape HEAD (very low level signal, like a moving coil phono cartridge) not a tape DECK such as you're used to (which has preamp and EQ circuitry built in).

    Ask Mr. Grand to build the preamp for you; I'm sure he'll be happy to!
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  • Pycroft
    Pycroft Posts: 1,960
    edited January 2010
    Alright...So tape = bad, but there is a switch in the front of the Lafayette preamp (Maybe not one online, because the seller sent me a few more) that you can switch from Phono to Tape. If I do not have a turntable, and plug my SACD into the phono side, would that be okay?

    Picture attached...sorry if this is redundant, but I've never heard some of the terms you guys are using :)
    2 Channel/HT:
    Sony SS-M9 P's (ES version)
    Sony SS-M1CN Center Channel
    Polk RT800 Surround Speakers
    Odyssey Stratos Dual Mono Amplifiers
    TAD 150 Signature Tube Preamp
    Harman Kardon HK354
    Sony SACD Player
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  • Pycroft
    Pycroft Posts: 1,960
    edited January 2010
    And while you're all into answering my dumb questions...what is NOS when referring to tubes?

    Thanks :)
    2 Channel/HT:
    Sony SS-M9 P's (ES version)
    Sony SS-M1CN Center Channel
    Polk RT800 Surround Speakers
    Odyssey Stratos Dual Mono Amplifiers
    TAD 150 Signature Tube Preamp
    Harman Kardon HK354
    Sony SACD Player
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  • Wardsweb
    Wardsweb Posts: 935
    edited January 2010
    Pycroft wrote: »
    And while you're all into answering my dumb questions...what is NOS when referring to tubes?

    Thanks :)

    NOS = New Old Stock
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  • Wardsweb
    Wardsweb Posts: 935
    edited January 2010
    If you know what a soldering iron is you can build one of these Bottlehead battery powered tube pre's for about $100. It doesn't come with a cabinet, you have to buy or fab one.

    quickie01.jpg

    A very simple circuit

    quickie04.jpg
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,967
    edited January 2010
    Bid on that Cary, Jimmbo, has cd inputs, nice starter unit as I said, and for the money, a no brainer. For under 200 bucks and not wanting to build one, quality used tube pre's are gonna be scarce.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • Pycroft
    Pycroft Posts: 1,960
    edited January 2010
    Tony,

    I bid pretty much my max...I am high bidder, but haven't met the reserve. I guess the seller doesn't think it's as entry level as everyone else :)
    2 Channel/HT:
    Sony SS-M9 P's (ES version)
    Sony SS-M1CN Center Channel
    Polk RT800 Surround Speakers
    Odyssey Stratos Dual Mono Amplifiers
    TAD 150 Signature Tube Preamp
    Harman Kardon HK354
    Sony SACD Player
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited January 2010
    Oh man, I would pick up that Lafayette if you can. I won't out bid you but I think its pretty cool. It is VERY old. About 40 years ago when I was a child I got the same one but in the form of a pair of mono's from some really old guy who said they were very old. I never did figure out what they were for. I remember the internal parts were minimal which is a good thing. Now I realize they might have been special. I notice that one has phono marked on it so it may have a phono preamp built in.
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • Pycroft
    Pycroft Posts: 1,960
    edited January 2010
    Regarding the lafayette, what specifically can I ask him to figure out if it would work in my situation?

    Thanks,

    James
    2 Channel/HT:
    Sony SS-M9 P's (ES version)
    Sony SS-M1CN Center Channel
    Polk RT800 Surround Speakers
    Odyssey Stratos Dual Mono Amplifiers
    TAD 150 Signature Tube Preamp
    Harman Kardon HK354
    Sony SACD Player
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,804
    edited January 2010
    The Lafayette has a very high-gain ("powerful" if you will) preamplifier with special equilization (like a tone control) to take the very low level (about one millivolt) signal from the tape head on a tape recorder and amplify and equalize it up to a "flat" signal of about 1 volt to feed a "line-level" preamp or power amp so you can hear the sound on the tape. Your SACD player has a "line-level" analog output (about 1 volt, often more, actually, on modern digital sources) that, if you fed it into either input of that little Lafayette, would result in a bad sounding and distorted output.
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