"Musical bass" vs "Home theater bass"

Vankor

There are the expressions going around in the title of the thread, and I'm curious what the difference is.
People say that some speakers are good for bass response for music, others are good for bass for movies and such.

This baffles me, because isn't bass response, bass response? Shouldn't the power and the extension be the largest factors of the bass reproduction? How does one do better at movies and another doesn't, but they can play to the same depth?

Pycroft

Great question...I have no answer, but look forward to looking back on this thread.

Zitro

When using a subwoofer for music, it needs to be able to have tight, controlled and articulate bass. There are many different "tones" of bass, especially in things like organs/pianos. Most cheaper subs only pump out "thump" bass, which is ok for HT because all you are working with are explosions, gunshots, etc, things hat don't require articulation so much as depth, loudness and real thump. Musical bass is not about thump. Subwoofers are usually built to do one or the other, not both. I've found that most HT subs sound terrible on my 2-channel system.

Basically, while HT subs are usually adept at providing gobs of deep, punchy bass at high volumes, musical subs deliver well controlled, articulate bass that can separate tones of different instruments and notes. HT subs won't have this articulation for music, but musical subs might not have the deepest punch for HT. It's a trade-off.

At least, this is what I've found with my system and others; I could be wrong. I'm sure someone else can clarify. I'm still relatively new to this.

McLoki

I think of it as

HT Bass = Deep, Loud, Sustained deep notes.

Musical Bass = fast, accurate, well controlled.

You can have a sub with both, obviously - but most subs under $1,000 (and quite a few over that price) will favor one or the other.

Tony M

McLoki wrote: »

I think of it as

HT Bass = Deep, Loud, Sustained deep notes.

Musical Bass = fast, accurate, well controlled.

You can have a sub with both, obviously - but most subs under $1,000 (and quite a few over that price) will favor one or the other.

X2

I couldn't have said it better.That's my opinion to. My older Kenwoods and Sansui's and also classic Klipschs and Pioneer HPM100's all had stiff accordian surrounds. I feel they are perfect for the Motown style sound tracks. They do pretty well with some of todays music as well. I didn't even consider them for HT. I think those long excursion surrounds are better for the sustained output of rumblings too.

jimsvm

Sorry for thread pooping,but does the Micro series Polk made for ht or music.Thanks for any input.

Ron Temple

jim farrell wrote: »

Sorry for thread pooping,but does the Micro series Polk made for ht or music.Thanks for any input.

Both, but the smaller subs are going to lack the impact of large box ported subs that are also pretty decent musical subs.

McLoki

jim farrell wrote: »

Sorry for thread pooping,but does the Micro series Polk made for ht or music.Thanks for any input.

I would say all the micropro series favors the musical bass side of things. The larger you go in the series - the better it gets at HT type bass....

Just my opinion.

Michael

louhamilton

Personally, I don't use a sub for my 2-channel music listening. My sub (SVS PB12-NSD) is dedicated to my HT listening.

My speakers handle down to 37Hz so most music is well handled with the specs of my speakers. If you have small bookshelves, then you may need a sub and then you can run a 2.1 setup for your music.

As Michael mentioned, "typically" the larger the sub the better for HT. The 10" and some 12" subs that I have listened to in the past have been fast enough to produce a nice tight bass reproduction. However, they are usually well over $1000. The JL Audio and Velodyne subs are the two that come to mind that make great musical subs. Even the giant Gotham sub is pretty dran good for music, then again, at $12,000, it better be good at everything.

john E

For music you want a sub that has a tight sound when hitting a low note.Really it is up to the person that is listen to it .To me smaller subs are beter for music.,But really a good sub should be able to do both.

Mon40CSMM10

Here's how I calibrated for musical bass using a PSW 110 subwoofer that I recently purchased. Note that I'm using the LFE out from the receiver, so the crossover knob on the sub is set to LFE (all the way clockwise), and I ended up doing two calibrations.

All speakers set to Small, crossover set to 100 Hz, dynamic range compression off, LFE attenuation off.

When calibrating the subwoofer using receiver test tones and a manual sound measurement tool (thus, manual calibration):

1. Make sure the subwoofer volume control is set all the way to Min.

2. Set the receiver's subwoofer channel level to maximum (e.g., +10 dB)

3. Slowly increase the subwoofer volume control until the sound meter shows peak levels of 75 dB to 76 dB. For the PSW 110 and the receiver in use, this level was reached just as the subwoofer volume dial was at the 9 o'clock position.

4. Exit the calibration, saving all settings.

5. Manually adjust the receiver's subwoofer channel level to the 0 dB settting.

Done!

Check the audio levels at the listening position, in the corners of the room, and at the ceiling level of the room. The bass will certainly have presence for thumpy and boomy bass drums plus any bass synth or bass guitar sounds in the music, but it also won't be wall-shaking bass so there's minimal risk of getting a noise complaint for disturbing nearby houses or apartments.

Basically, the musical bass just adds a bit more presence and low end, doesn't overpower the music. To prove this, turn off the subwoofer amplifier (or set it to standby), check the bass at the listening position, in the corners of the room, and at ceiling level, then turn the sub back on and recheck the same locations.

However, listening preferences do vary. So if the sound seems too bright/lacking in bass, don't touch the subwoofer volume dial again and just increase the subwoofer channel level volume at the receiver. (Maybe increase it +3 dB or so.)

Mon40CSMM10

So the above that I posted does work for moderate to louder volumes, but I found that at softer volumes (e.g, -70 db or below on a volume scale of -94 dB to -8 db), the subwoofer would switch off.

The alternate configuration I used for musical bass that works even at lower volumes is as follows:

1. From the previous calibration, the minimum volume level where bass will be emitted from the subwoofer has been determined (e.g., the 9 o'clock position for the PSW110 I was using)... leave the subwoofer at this volume level.

2. Using the AVR calibration, calibrate the subwoofer to where the peak volume level of the test tones is consistently around 75 dB, but does not peak above 76 dB. This is so that the bass blends in with the other speakers at the crossover point.

In my case, that resulted in a +6.5 dB subwoofer channel setting, rather than 0.0 dB, but the bass is still musical with added bass presence without being overpowering, and also softer volume levels can be used without the subwoofer powering off due to an insufficient signal level. (I tested this at a volume level of -80 dB, and the subwoofer still remained powered on in the Auto power setting, rather than switching off.)

I could have also enabled Loudness, but the bass has a certain characteristic I just didn't like when I tried enabling Loudness.

janmike

REL vs SVS. End of my story.

MANSKITO

I've been playing the Viola for the past 10 years, and I used to sit next to the Cello and bass section in my High school Orkestra so I KNOW what a cello/bass sounds like.

The best way I can describe this too you is a Musical sub will be able to play string bass and have the string bass sound like the real thing. It will capture how the sound comes off the string when you pull the bow and then resonates and grows and then how all that hits your ear. If your sub can't do that, then its not a musical sub.

For example my PSW10, its great if I'm watching a movie but the moment that i want to listen to some music that has any bass the sub falls apart, it has what i like to call one note bass, you don't hear the resonate/ micro vibrations you don't hear (if present) the vibrato that the player putts on the note. It just sounds static, it sounds like crap.

There is a HUGE difference between a HT sub and a musical sub. Its not just string bass, its ANY bass, Musical subs simply have more control over the sound thus they coast more.

If your looking for a musical sub try the DSW micro pro 1k that sub while not the best in the world sounds leaps and bounds better then my PSW10, but what ever you do, don't buy the PSW10 its a waste of money IMO.

From what I have seen the best Musical subs have High wattage power amps, sealed designs, and smallish drivers. Sub 10inches. This is not set in stone this is just a general trend that I have seen in subs that are in my price range.

cwilliams

I'll be in the process of upgrading my sub in the future, but for now I found to really bring my sub to life for music in my room I needed to set the AVR's crossover to 90hz. It makes a HUGE difference with the mid-bass vs the more common crossover point of 80hz. My fronts are also set to "Large" to help it even further.

danz1906

janmike wrote: »

REL vs SVS. End of my story.

Agreed, Rel makes some of the Best Musical subs, and SVS are great
for Home Theater.

Gotgutz

So would the microPro series be good for both music and home theater.. I recently purchased a Polk Audio 360 sound bar.. Looking for more bass..But for both home theater and music(Since I use it for both)
Sorry if this is threadjacking..was trying to understand this conversation to make an informed decision..
In the end just ended up more confused, just have to read more I guess.
Thanks
Jorge

Amherst

Bought the Micro Pro 1000 a few months back and I consider it to be a very musical type sub. It replaced an older DSW 350, that i found muddy sounding. The micro is in a smallish living room and for my purposes produces plenty SPL, the little thing seems to defy it's size.

Huck344

I had this very conversation with my local HiFi/HT guy this past weekend. He advised that it's best to have smaller subs for music because they will be tighter and more accurate. He even recommended having two small subs instead of one large one. He laughed when I told him that I have an SVS PB Ultra (total HT sub). He was recommending some PSB subs for music. I don't remember which models.

jacob.simpson

Difference between F1 & Naascar:p

Huck344

jacob.simpson wrote: »

Difference between F1 & Naascar:p

One turns left only???

Lowell_M

Huck344 wrote: »

One turns left only???

..and has a very high occurance of mullets

DMara

Huck344 wrote: »

One turns left only???

There would have been be less collision if they actually did so

Huck344

:D:D:D:D:D:D

lowell_m wrote: »

..and has a very high occurance of mullets

:d:d:d:d:d:d:d

TNTsTunes

Huck344 wrote: »

One turns left only???

Ever seen a Nascar road course race. Infineon Raceway is a great Nascar track road race to watch... Going only left is boring.

American LeMans series is better yet.

Mon40CSMM10

What I also found out, when trying to get the most musical bass, is not to rule out the receiver's own custom modes. I kept trying to get the best out of the Pro Logic II Music mode, and it just wasn't working well enough for me.

After having tried setting the speakers to large with and without separate passive crossovers installed, trying to leave the speakers set at small but the crossover set at 100 Hz for more midbass, trying to increase the subwoofer but then the bass drum sounds got to be overpowering... I finally realized that the Pro Logic II Music mode on the AVR I am using might just outputting too little bass when the Loudness is not enabled.

So what I did instead... I uninstalled any separate passive crossovers, set all speakers to small, turned off loudness once more, dropped the crossover setting from 100 Hz back to the recommended 80 Hz, and then experimented with the receiver's own Advanced Surround modes. It turns out that I can get very good music bass for the older video game console with lower fidelity audio by using the receiver's Advanced Game surround mode with an effect level of 20. Also, the game console running digital out into the receiver in addition to FM radio... those both sound the best when using the receiver's Expanded Stereo (X-Stereo) mode with an effect level of 50.

(For movies, it turns out that using the receiver's Movie mode--supporting Dolby Pro Logic II in analog source mode and Dolby Digital/DTS in digital source mode--actually provides the best possible movie sound and bass in its midnight mode, due to the fact I do not turn the volume all the way up to the very loud -18 dB reference level it uses for speaker calibration.)

So I've ultimately found out that it takes several calibrations, channel level adjustments, subwoofer volume level changes--used with a variety of music and movie sources--to finally set up the best musical bass for music and movies.

Mon40CSMM10

Mon40CSMM10 wrote: »

What I also found out, when trying to get the most musical bass, is not to rule out the receiver's own custom modes. I kept trying to get the best out of the Pro Logic II Music mode, and it just wasn't working well enough for me.

The receiver's Phase Control seems to be actual root cause of the low bass output problem.

According to the receiver's manual, Phase Control designed to keep sounds in phase and prevent them from arriving at the listening position out of phase, and they recommend leaving it on.

However, if I disable Phase Control, I get deeper bass at the listening position and actually less bass in the far corners of the room and at ceiling level. That's the sound I want out of Pro Logic II Music mode so I'll revert back to Pro Logic II Music mode with Phase Control set to OFF.

That effectively ends my research for musical bass settings that will also work for movies, and if needed it's easy enough just to re-enable Phase Control for movies, and then disable it again for music.