Preamp Speaker Balance control

thsmith
thsmith Posts: 6,082
edited February 2010 in Electronics
Looking for opinions on Preamps, must have speaker balance or don't care or do not want.

TIA
Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,248
    edited January 2010
    Can you be more specific as to what you're looking for (characteristics) and what you're using it with?

    The 750 not doing it for you?

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,248
    edited January 2010
    http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatran&1268961121&/Pass-Labs-Aleph-P-Preamp-w/rem

    Here about one of the best SS pre's you can get.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited January 2010
    Budget, SS or Tube?

    For tube, I like the Mapletree Line 2A. It has a dual gang balance control, something you don't see too often.

    For SS, check out the Wyred 4 Sound STI series.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited January 2010
    I don't have a balance control on my integrated but I do on my phono pre which is helpful when setting up the turntable.
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  • thsmith
    thsmith Posts: 6,082
    edited January 2010
    Sorry I should have more specific. I am looking to upgrade my Tube Pre. Looked at the AR 16P but it does not have a balance control. I am using SDA speakers and have only used Balance control to test out the balance of my speakers which was fine.

    The Adcom GFP-750 is a great SS pre and enjoyed the time I had it but started down the path of tubes. For now I am not looking back.

    Budget is $1000 to $1500.

    Currently have an Anthem AMP 1 and a Anthem Pre 1L.

    Not absolutely required but ideally would have HT bypass and a remote that is finctional, no huge jumps up or down.

    My point of this poll is to understand how important a balance control is, I have not used the ones I have had but I want to make sure I am not missing anything if I go with a tube pre that does not have a balance control.
    Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
    Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
    Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
    Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
    Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
    Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,248
    edited January 2010
    I have never moved a balance control in my life. But, I suppose trouble shooting SDA's it would useful at some point. My current tube pre doesn't have a balance control and neither does my tube integrated.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited January 2010
    A Mapletree Line 2A can be ordered with HT Bypass.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • Conradicles
    Conradicles Posts: 6,174
    edited January 2010
    The only time I use balance is to check my SDA's.
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  • NJPOLKER
    NJPOLKER Posts: 3,474
    edited January 2010
    There is no need for balance control. I could be wrong but I can't see why.
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited January 2010
    heiney9 wrote: »
    http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatran&1268961121&/Pass-Labs-Aleph-P-Preamp-w/rem

    Here about one of the best SS pre's you can get.

    H9

    No bias in that suggestion.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,248
    edited January 2010
    dorokusai wrote: »
    No bias in that suggestion.

    LoL......sure there's a little bias, regardless it's a stellar SS pre along with many more I'm sure that will be suggested.

    Now I see he's looking for a tube pre.

    I'd recommend a BAT VK-3i which if he's prudent will fit in his budget.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited January 2010
    NJPOLKER wrote: »
    There is no need for balance control. I could be wrong but I can't see why.
    I need one due to the shape of my room. There's no way around it.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited January 2010
    NJPOLKER wrote: »
    There is no need for balance control. I could be wrong but I can't see why.

    That's because you are too lazy to own a turntable, Drewy!:p:D
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  • NJPOLKER
    NJPOLKER Posts: 3,474
    edited January 2010
    Face wrote: »
    I need one due to the shape of my room. There's no way around it.

    Yes there is, re-shape your room.
    hearingimpared wrote: »
    That's because you are too lazy to own a turntable, Drewy!:p:D

    It's not Drewy its Drewbie. Damn boy do I have to teach you everything Joey?

    The purple is for Farve
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  • Ricardo
    Ricardo Posts: 10,636
    edited January 2010
    I use the balance. No matter what I do, I always need to give a little to the right side. It might be my hearing, my room, my speakers, my imagination...... but I do it.
    _________________________________________________
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    Thank God for different opinions. Imagine the world if we all wanted the same woman
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  • headrott
    headrott Posts: 5,496
    edited January 2010
    NJPOLKER wrote: »
    There is no need for balance control. I could be wrong but I can't see why.

    Try listening to "Revolver" on each channel seperately. Especially, Elenor Rigby. It's a totally different take on the song.

    I feel the balance is a must for multiple reasons.
    Relayer-Big-O-Poster.jpg
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion." :\
    My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

    "Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited January 2010
    NJPOLKER wrote: »
    Yes there is, re-shape your room.



    It's not Drewy its Drewbie. Damn boy do I have to teach you everything Joey?

    The purple is for Farve

    I prefer Droopy!:p
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  • Hawkeye
    Hawkeye Posts: 1,313
    edited January 2010
    My pre only has a balance, no tone controls and I demand it. My left speaker is next to a large opening in the room and the room requires I add a bit of boost to the left speaker to obtain a solid center image. If I had perfect room, which will never happen, I might not need it. But I do.

    Gordon
    2 Channel -
    Martin Logan Spire, 2 JL Audio F112 subs
    McIntosh C1000 Controller with Tube pre amp, 2 MC501 amplifiers, MD1K Transport & DAC, MR-88 Tuner
    WireWorld Eclipse 6.0 speaker wire and jumpers, Eclipse 5^2 Squared Balanced IC's. Silver Eclipse PCs (5)
    Symposium Rollerblocks 2+ (16)Black Diamond Racing Mk 3 pits (8)
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited January 2010
    Face wrote: »
    I need one due to the shape of my room. There's no way around it.

    Really? That's interesting.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • NJPOLKER
    NJPOLKER Posts: 3,474
    edited January 2010
    hearingimpared wrote: »
    I prefer Droopy!:p

    How about Drewel :)
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  • thsmith
    thsmith Posts: 6,082
    edited January 2010
    Thanks all, so far everything I have heard in your responses confirms what I was thinking which is I should not discount a nice tube pre for the right money because it has no balance control.
    Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
    Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
    Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
    Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
    Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
    Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs
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  • Krazyz1
    Krazyz1 Posts: 256
    edited January 2010
    I just use the line attenuate on the EQ.
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  • dcmeigs
    dcmeigs Posts: 708
    edited January 2010
    If you use a tube power amp, you will find value in a balance control. I have some great sounding tube pairs (in push pull) that pair up very well, however they differ a wee bit from the pair in the other channel. The balance fixes that.

    Also, if you listen to vinyl, it's not uncommon to have imbalance due to anti-skating issues, cartridge wear, stylus wear and album wear. That too is fixed by balance control.

    Those who only listen to CDs on solid state gear can get by without, unless they have asymetric rooms, as was mentioned.
    The world is full of answers, some are right and some are wrong. - Neil Young
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,248
    edited January 2010
    Hmmmmm, I have a couple tube amps and everything is dead on w/o a balance control. I suppose as tubes age and wear, but won't rebiasing the tubes fix any inbalances as long as the tubes aren't horribly unmatched?

    As an example: If I use a quad of 6V6's and I buy a pair that read 95 out of 100 and a pair that reads 75 out of 100 then there might be an issue. But I would never use those pairs together.

    Right now I have a pair that reads 95/100 and 89/100 and I have no issues with the amp with it biased properly.

    IIRC, a variance of 10-15% is generally inaudible between pairs or triodes.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 51,025
    edited January 2010
    My office rig pre came with balance control, I've never used it.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • dcmeigs
    dcmeigs Posts: 708
    edited January 2010
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Hmmmmm, I have a couple tube amps and everything is dead on w/o a balance control. I suppose as tubes age and wear, but won't rebiasing the tubes fix any inbalances as long as the tubes aren't horribly unmatched?

    Good points. That's the way it should be where amps are concerned. But not all amps have adjustable bias controls (fixed bias) and not all owners are knowledgable as you are and/or are willing to bias theirs as regularly as they should (Lot's of folks take their amps to techs to be biased). And a lot of folks like me like to run old cheap tubes red hot to see what they sound like. (Did you know that the red paint JJ uses smells real bad and turns maroon when you get them real hot).

    On the other hand, perhaps if amps didn't have balance controls, people would have them looked at before a leaking coupling cap begins to drop the bias and eventually burns up a tube.

    But as for the other issues, haven't you had a cartridge wear out on you?
    The world is full of answers, some are right and some are wrong. - Neil Young
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,465
    edited January 2010
    I have not, to my knowledge, ever needed or used a balance control.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,538
    edited February 2010
    Don't want a balance control, it's one more component in the chain to futz with my signal.
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • comfortablycurt
    comfortablycurt Posts: 6,745
    edited February 2010
    My Acurus L10 has a balance control...and I've only ever used it one time.

    A few months back, I had an ear infection and the hearing in my right hear was really bad for a week or so(this was when I had the ERC-1 demo unfortunately). I was able to use the balance control to make the right side a lot louder than the left, and I managed to make it sound fairly balanced, despite the ear infection.

    That one instance aside though, I really have no use for a balance control. I've never felt that I needed to make one side louder. Any issues I've ever had were simply solved by playing with room placement a little bit.
    The nirvana inducer-
    APC H10 Power Conditioner
    Marantz UD5005 universal player
    Parasound Halo P5 preamp
    Parasound HCA-1200II power amp
    PolkAudio LSi9's/PolkAudio SDA 2A's/PolkAudio Monitor 7A's
    Audioquest Speaker Cables and IC's
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  • HB27
    HB27 Posts: 1,518
    edited February 2010
    I have a weird wall I'm limited in using for my set up and there IS a difference in the bass reflection on my left channel. I can not "relocate" the left speaker and it's a little lower in output on that side and has to be compensated for.
    I do NOT like balance controls.
    On my McAlister custom I took out the stereo balance control and put in two TKD 100K attenuators without steps and can balance channels with direct volume control. It's the greatest mod to a pre I could have thought of.
    The original Alps Peter McAlister put in was defective and It just made sense to seperate the controls at that point.
    Harry
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