New to Polk, Bi amp wiring vs Bi wire RTiA9 to AVR4810

hoghvn417

Hi Polkaholics! ;-)

I'm new to Polk. I just got 2 RTiA9, CSiA6, FXiA6,and DSW Pro 600 Sub.

I'm looking to wire these up for the first time. I want the very best sound that these speakers can provide. Are there any advantages to bi-amping verses bi-wiring? Should I use banana plugs. I'm thinking why not bi-amp wire since I have the capability to do so.

I just got the Denon AVR4810 receiver. I'll also be networking this via ethernet cable to stream internet radio, Rhapsody, YouTube and Netflix etc.

I like AudioQuest cables. Which ones should I use for best sound?

Thank you for any advice you can give me.

Harlean

nguyendot

Most people don't see much difference in bi-wiring or bi-amping from one receiver. If you want to see a big difference get an external amplifier, or two and biamp that way.

While your receiver has a lot of power, I guarantee any decent external amp over 100wrms will do better than your receiver alone.

danz1906

Welcome to the Club!

Congrats on the nice system.

klennop

nguyendot wrote: »

Most people don't see much difference in bi-wiring or bi-amping from one receiver. If you want to see a big difference get an external amplifier, or two and biamp that way.

While your receiver has a lot of power, I guarantee any decent external amp over 100wrms will do better than your receiver alone.

What do you think his Denon is putting out for RMS power? I thought the higher end receivers were rated in RMS power.

If that is the case his Denon is rated at 140watts per channel so to me going to an external 100 watt amp would be a step back.

If that isn't the case, where did you find information that tells someone otherwise?

Rocco1

that is not the case because a dedicated piece of equipment will always work better. unless its of poor quality. Dedicated amp is the biggest improvement you can make from your basic systems. Its the point where you start to get serious into to this hobby that most of us have spent every extra penny on.

klennop

Rocco1 wrote: »

that is not the case because a dedicated piece of equipment will always work better. unless its of poor quality. Dedicated amp is the biggest improvement you can make from your basic systems. Its the point where you start to get serious into to this hobby that most of us have spent every extra penny on.

That is what everyone always sells and everyone buys it. Kind of like a Leatherman tool is good at everything but if you want a pliers or a knife you should buy a pliers and a knife because they do their job better than the Leatherman can.

However if an amplifier and AVR have the same THD, RMS Power is measured in the same way, and it is a well made product. Then what really makes it one so much better than the other. I understand that better power supplies, capacitors, etc. all play into it but if the final product at the end of the line equal each other. Can you really tell the difference between 100watts coming out of a AVR vs. a dedicated amp if blindfolded and on paper they are the same? Really why is one so much better than the other? Is it because people want to pay more for dedicated components and name brands to show off to their friends?

For me, I want something that sounds good, works well, and looks good on the factual info. This isn't really a hobby for me, it's just something I like to dabble in which I haven't for about 10 years so I am trying to catch up. Now motorcycles..........that is my hobby and those suck up all my pennies!!

dekuda

A good separate amp is made and designed to just provide good clean power. The amp in your eceiver does not have the same quality componets (caps,transistors,transformer,ect ) as a good external amp. A good external amp will provide cleaner power and have more headroom. I also noticed that when I went to a separate amp to power my Rti12's fronts my yamaha AVR ran alot cooler and it helped provide ample power for my rears,center and sides.. Eventhough my Yamaha V2600 supplies 130w/ch it can be loaded down when you are driving 5 or 7 speakers.

tonyb

Are all 125 cc dirt bikes the same ??

You do have alot of catching up to do my man.

polkie4life

If we compare motorbikes i think you need to look at torque figures aswell.

Amps/receivers cannot be measured on watts alone... Current is the key, and most receivers don't really deliver a lot.

tonyb

polkie4life wrote: »

If we compare motorbikes i think you need to look at torque figures aswell.

Amps/receivers cannot be measured on watts alone... Current is the key, and most receivers don't really deliver a lot.

Well of coarse, thats the whole point some have tried to make. I only made reference to motorcycles because of the previous posters comments. Some still don't understand what an amp does,and the difference between the amp in an avr and a stand alone unit.

klennop

tonyb wrote: »

Are all 125 cc dirt bikes the same ??

You do have alot of catching up to do my man.

Actually there are not a lot of differences in the big names, so one could say yes. Plus they are all in the same price range and nobody is paying extra for the name.

Build quality and HP and TQ numbers of a motorcycle are just like build quality, Watts, Ohms and THD of an Amp.

Instead of comparing motorcycles show me proof that an amp is so much better and instead of just stating that some people don't understand. Make a stand and explain why, so people can learn instead of just making it sound like you understand all of it.

By all means I am not trying to come off harsh or attacking you in any way. I just think instead of just giving an opinion, explain why or how you come to that opinion, that is all.

klennop

dekuda wrote: »

A good separate amp is made and designed to just provide good clean power. The amp in your eceiver does not have the same quality componets (caps,transistors,transformer,ect ) as a good external amp. A good external amp will provide cleaner power and have more headroom. I also noticed that when I went to a separate amp to power my Rti12's fronts my yamaha AVR ran alot cooler and it helped provide ample power for my rears,center and sides.. Eventhough my Yamaha V2600 supplies 130w/ch it can be loaded down when you are driving 5 or 7 speakers.

What amp did you go to for your Rti12's? Did you actually notice a difference in sound quality from going to a dedicated amp? Or notice that you were not turning the receiver up as high to get the same volume output? The reason I ask is because I think the Rti12's are pretty close to the A9's. I also understand the yamaha running cooler since there is less strain on the internal amp.

mhmacw

it is my understanding that a dedicated piece of equipment performs better under it designed function because of a few different reasons. the first and most important in my view is because it was "designed" to do a specific job. i know thats not very divulgent but i think you get my drift. the second in my book is the strain on the power supply not necessarily the amp. for example... the receiver you use has power supply designed to carry (x) load, to include tuner switchboard, amplifier, filters,signal processors, signal routing transistors, shiny little lights, and so on. now if you were to look at the specs of the transformers in the high end receivers and the transformers in the high end apms(of the same rms rating) you would find little difference. since the transformers are what supply the conditioned power its safe to assume the more focal you can be with the destination of the supplied power the more efficiant the component will operate. in other words... if you dont have switches and lights to turn on and off the more raw power you deliver to the transistors or tubes as the case may be. generally a receivers evaluation of wrms output is under optimal conditions i.e. 2 channell only nothing else being run. whereas the dedicated amplifier is always operating under those conditions and doesnt fluctuate while changing sources or adding speaker channels, or god forbid!, loading the transformer with another componet by the handily supplied aux 110v plug on the back lol.hope this helps ...all the best,dan

klennop

That makes sense Dan, thanks for sharing!

I guess the other thing to add would be when that extreme note hits in a song or movie, a dedicated amp has that edge over the AVR amp because like you said the AVR's amp isn't powering all that additional crap. So when you need all the power an amp(AVR or External) has for peak power to hit that note, the dedicated amp will hit where an AVR may loose and distort due to lack of current or amperage.

garypen

hoghvn417 wrote: »

I'm looking to wire these up for the first time. I want the very best sound that these speakers can provide. Are there any advantages to bi-amping verses bi-wiring? Should I use banana plugs. I'm thinking why not bi-amp wire since I have the capability to do so.

I just got the Denon AVR4810 receiver. I'll also be networking this via ethernet cable to stream internet radio, Rhapsody, YouTube and Netflix etc.

I like AudioQuest cables. Which ones should I use for best sound?

Thank you for any advice you can give me.

Harlean

Like everyone says, separate, dedicated power amps would provide better results when bi-amping than using the amplifier section of your AVR.

OTOH, the 4810 is a great AVR, with a great internal amp (for an AVR). And, you will most likely notice a difference when using its built-in bi-amp function. (Bi-wiring, otoh, is pointless if you are using adequate speaker wire to begin with.)

As for speaker wire, any quality 10-12ga speaker cable with soldered lugs or bananas will do just as well as any high-priced "emperor's new clothes". (But, feel free to spend and buy what makes you happy, and what you think sounds better.)

garypen

klennop wrote: »

That makes sense Dan, thanks for sharing!

I guess the other thing to add would be when that extreme note hits in a song or movie, a dedicated amp has that edge over the AVR amp because like you said the AVR's amp isn't powering all that additional crap. So when you need all the power an amp(AVR or External) has for peak power to hit that note, the dedicated amp will hit where an AVR may loose and distort due to lack of current or amperage.

That's why the higher end AVR's have "pure" modes. It turns off all of the extra crap, even the front panel display in the case of Denon.

Of course, their internal amps will never be as good as higher-quality dedicated power amps. But, the higher-end AVR's do have pretty good internal amps, way better than the cheaper ones. And, when money and/or space are important considerations, mid-to-upper-end AVR's are usually a much better value than separates.

nguyendot

I guarantee the current output of my NAD 214 amp will trounce his Denon AVR. It's all about current capability, headroom, etc.

Also you'll notice that a dedicated piece of equipment will generally be built with better quality, and with less noise inducing multi-purpose equipment. That AVR is exactly that, audio/video receiver. It's going to have a lot of circuitry for audio, and video built into it that can and will induce more noise than a dedicated amplifier.

Klennop,

you should probably search these forums on this topic before trying to say any AVR is better than a good well-rounded separate amp.

Some will argue biwiring... I'd personally just use a good set of wires and replace the brass jumpers with better wiring. If you want to biamp do it right.

Get active processing and dual amps. Now you aren't gimped by your passive crossover.

klennop

nguyendot wrote: »

I guarantee the current output of my NAD 214 amp will trounce his Denon AVR. It's all about current capability, headroom, etc.

Also you'll notice that a dedicated piece of equipment will generally be built with better quality, and with less noise inducing multi-purpose equipment. That AVR is exactly that, audio/video receiver. It's going to have a lot of circuitry for audio, and video built into it that can and will induce more noise than a dedicated amplifier.

Klennop,

you should probably search these forums on this topic before trying to say any AVR is better than a good well-rounded separate amp.

Some will argue biwiring... I'd personally just use a good set of wires and replace the brass jumpers with better wiring. If you want to biamp do it right.

Get active processing and dual amps. Now you aren't gimped by your passive crossover.

OK then show me some proof......that is all I am asking.

I never said an AVR amp was better, just wanted more of an explanation into why an external amp is so much better.

Just a sponge here ready to soak up the info.

garypen

nguyendot wrote: »

I guarantee the current output of my NAD 214 amp will trounce his Denon AVR. It's all about current capability, headroom, etc.

It probably will. I never said it wouldn't. I don't think Klennop did either.

nguyendot wrote: »

Also you'll notice that a dedicated piece of equipment will generally be built with better quality, and with less noise inducing multi-purpose equipment. That AVR is exactly that, audio/video receiver. It's going to have a lot of circuitry for audio, and video built into it that can and will induce more noise than a dedicated amplifier.

You might want to see my post about "pure" modes. Also, many people who use dedicated amps still use AVR's as a control preamp. And, guess what that does. It introduces all that multi-purpose noise-inducing equipment into the mix.

nguyendot wrote: »

Klennop,

you should probably search these forums on this topic before trying to say any AVR is better than a good well-rounded separate amp.

I don't think he did. I think he is trying to say (I could be mistaken) that a high-end AVR is generally a better value for most people.

nguyendot wrote: »

Some will argue biwiring... I'd personally just use a good set of wires and replace the brass jumpers with better wiring. If you want to biamp do it right.

Get active processing and dual amps. Now you aren't gimped by your passive crossover.

Agreed that bi-wiring won't do crap. Just a good set of wires is what's needed.

However, even though true bi-amping with active crossover will be way better than AVR bi-amping, he may not want/need/be able to spend the money required. As such, bi-amping a mid-to-high-end AVR will still provide improvement, and probably better value for him.

FWIW - I'm familiar with active crossovers and multi-amping as a concert sound engineer. I've set up and operated one or two or hundreds of multi-amped systems in my time. However, not every consumer has the money or space for such a thing. For many, bi-amping their AVR's will provide just improvement they need. (For many more, standard wiring will suffice.)

mhmacw

yes klennop, the distortion due to lack of headroom is what i would consider as the jist and the most important concern. moreover...as i must agree there are high quality avr manufacturers that claim to be able to "purify" the current paths i cant help but remember the analogy that my professor used as an example as to why dedicated are better. picture a waterpipe flowing at maximun volume. now cut the pipe and insert a valve. open the valve all the way to what should be unobstructed flow as though the pipe were still complete. what do you suppose is going on arround the valve fixture? even though the valve is slightly larger in diameter it still creates turbulence that obstructs the flow. similariteis exist around the soldered components that exist around the valve. although the component is switched off it still creates frequency variations in the current as it flows past. i can not contend the fact that it may be so neglegable as not to be heard at normal listening levels, however, it will certainly be measurable and depending on the sensitvity of the components adjacent to the avr you may get field harmonics that could do all sorts of crazy things. for my ears its seperates! from the circuitry to the louspeakers themselves. you dont suppose there any reason other than it works better for the woofer and tweeter to be sized and shaped differently do you?

dekuda

klennop, Yes I did notice that that my midrange on my Rti's were better and seem the speakers were able to have more depth. When I went from the Rti 10's and was able to get a used set of rti 12's I did alot of experimenting and research. The guy that was selling them had these on a sunfire amp. I could not believe how great they sounded. Then brought them home and hooked them up to my Yammie V2600 which I feel is a decent amp.(130w/ch) Well.not even close to the same sound. Tried biwiring(no help) biamping which the yamaha allows me to do and there was a small improvememnt. Then went with aCarver TFM 25 and then a TFM35X .Got Monster THX Ultra1000 8ft cables and then a pair of 8ft AQ 4's and I am telling you,these speakers sound so nice now and as my friend said ,they now truely sing ! Your RTIA9's are similar but I believe they are more efficient with power and have a better cabinet design. I tell you what. if I had not read other reviews and had not heard originally what these speakers could sound like and be capable of I would probably been happy running them off my Yammi with monster XL cable and been happy. I have found many post on this and other forums/reviews that share my story and made me a believer. Good Luck!