Speaker Wire GAUGE

polkie4life

F1nut wrote: »

That is true about some things in life, but far from all.

For example, you can't learn to drive a car by reading a book. You actually have to get behind the wheel. The same with audio cables, you have to try/hear them for yourself to be able to judge the sound.

Just to add to that F1... I think there's two major things that u need to have initially to help with cable choice.

1. A system able to reveal any changes.
2. An intimate knowledge of your own system, good and bad points.


I once was a disbeliever in cables making a difference (note i never said better). I never did feel the need to go off spouting to anyone who'd listen that they were a myth though...

hearingimpared

xcapri79 wrote: »

Don't let the facts get in the way of your name-calling arguments.
Learning to drive a car is really a straw-man argument. It is doesn't apply.

My answer to the Op's question was a good answer.
My answer included Polk Audio's recommendation which is in agreement with Roger Russell's wire table.
Roger Russell is a trusted and respected source and frequently cited by experienced and knowledgeable audio people. The audio myths have been exposed.

http://www.theguruguys.com/news/the-truth-about-overpriced-cables-again
http://www.ratsound.com/cblog/archives/362-Possibility-Plausibility-Probability-Provability.html
http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/pear-cable-science
http://www.randi.org/jr/2007-09/092807reply.html#i4
http://www.ethanwiner.com/myths.html
http://www.nogripracing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=179364
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17739441
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/12/23/technology/downtime-a-spat-among-audiophiles-over-high-end-speaker-wire.html
http://www.verber.com/mark/ce/cables.html
http://parseidon.com/general/ridiculous-audiophile-equipment
http://2eyespy.tripod.com/id3.html
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/10362/do_expensive_cables_really_deliver_pg3.html?cat=15
http://web.archive.org/web/20020214050428/http://www.oakland.edu/~djcarlst/abx_plac.htm

Again, we know you can read but what ICs have you tried out?, what speaker cables have you tried?, what were your findings?, did you notice any improvement in soundstage width or depth?, did you find the inner, subtle detail improvements or deficiencies. Share your experience instead of others or don't you have enough confidence in your abilities to do that.

There are thousands of articles that can be posted directly opposite to what you've posted but we prefer to share our EXPERIENCES with different pieces of gear instead of posting what someone else has to say about it.

F1nut

My answer to the Op's question was a good answer.

So, tell us all again what actual experience you have with audio cables? Oh snap that's right, you don't.

NJPOLKER

Murray1 wrote: »

Have a new set of RTiA5's and a Harman Kardon 3600. Need to know recommended wire gauge for both. Thanks

Hey Murray,
We have some **** heads around here that are trying to cause more problems than assist you with your questions.

Budget is critical and generally speaking you will be best served buying used cables. Also used cables are generally already burned-in for you so thats a plus. DIY's are fine but at the costs of used cables may not be worth the time and aggravation.
Quality of wire is far more important than guage. Just ask George Daniel his impressions on the Morrow Audio's he currently runs. You can't go wrong with people like Audioquest Kimber MIT Signal Cable and so on. Just look at all the used cables http://buy.audiogon.com/cgia/glb.pl?cablspkr&&actg and find some in your budget. If you need any advice feel free to come back to the guys here for some sound advice, no pun intended. Like I stated earlier you can always flip them after awhile for different or upgraded cables. I prefer banana's because they are easy to work with. Its kind of funny that my current cables have spades all around but they were a good buy and came with spades so I went with them.
Good luck and ignore the **** heads who try to bring irrelevant testing into this. Most of the guys who offer advice here have actual experience listening to different types of cables.

everpress

xcapri79 wrote: »

Links from a paranormal debunker, an amature racing forum, a news source that gets paid by Bose for quotes on Bose commercials and a personal blog from a guitar player.

What?! Wait... Did you just 'Google' "debunking audio cables" and copy/paste everything you found?

I have very little fight in if cables make a difference. Why? Because I've not the budget to try it myself. I also don't have the budget for a system where it would really matter. BUT, saying it's all BS without trying it firsthand... I have beef with that.

If a friend of mine tells me that Adriana Lima is crappy in bed, I've no right to go around telling everyone... However... If I sleep with Adriana Lima, and my wife somehow doesn't kill me... I can give a firsthand account and tell everyone what I know.

concealer404

concealer404 wrote:

And for Christ's sake.... why the HELL would anyone be so hung up on what they SEE on a TABLE or a VISUAL MEASURING DEVICE in a hobby that is about what you HEAR?

Answer why someone would do this, troll.

Des Moines

everpress wrote: »

If a friend of mine tells me that Adriana Lima is crappy in bed, I've no right to go around telling everyone... However... If I sleep with Adriana Lima, and my wife somehow doesn't kill me... I can give a firsthand account and tell everyone what I know.

Great analogy! Love it!
I just went though a couple of weeks of cable research to power my newly acquired 1Cs. I will start a new link that outlines my journey for quality cables step by step. Many CP members have already made this journey but so many new members are asking about cables, I will share my findings from one noobe to another.

Knucklehead

You know what dude, I see where you are going with this.........trying to get CP members all pissed off about products that Polk carries because your trying to make a point. Point is Polk is in this business to make money period. Stop hate mongering here...Jesus!

by the way.....Inglorious **** was a great movie!

WilliamM2

NJPOLKER wrote: »

Hey Murray,
We have some **** heads around here that are trying to cause more problems than assist you with your questions.

No kidding. Do you ever plan to stop?

Knucklehead

xcapri79 wrote: »

With respect to speaker wire, my point is that I agree with the recommendations of both Polk Audio and Roger Russell. I offered this good advice in response to the OP's question.

Since this has been brought up by others, with respect to the movie Inglourious ****, simply stated I do not support that movie because I support our troops and oppose anti-Americanism and anti-Semitism depicted in the movie hidden under the guise of a "turning the tables" parody, black humor, and gratuitous violence and torture.
That is the last on that subject since that thread has been officially closed.

he he he.........:rolleyes:

NJPOLKER

WilliamM2 wrote: »

No kidding. Do you ever plan to stop?

Nope LOL

I was wondering when, not if, you were going to show your face. It is amazing how some people crawl out of the wood work to troll up a thread.

hearingimpared

xcapri79 wrote: »

Calling people names doesn't make one's point, further the discussion or help anyone.

Here is a practical suggestion for cable.
Polk Audio lists the Phoenix Gold Wiring Kit on their website for your consideration.
It includes two 50ft 16AWG speaker cable reels, one 13ft mono sub cable, and one 3.3ft HDMI cable.

http://shop.polkaudio.com/



Best Wishes.

xcapri79 wrote: »

With respect to speaker wire, my point is that I agree with the recommendations of both Polk Audio and Roger Russell. I offered this good advice in response to the OP's question.

When unfairly attacked with personal insults directed to Roger Russell and me, I defended us and presented ample evidence concerning documented audio myths.

Since this has been brought up by others, with respect to the movie Inglourious ****, simply stated I do not support that movie because I support our troops and oppose anti-Americanism and anti-Semitism depicted in the movie hidden under the guise of a "turning the tables" parody, black humor, and gratuitous violence and torture.
That is the last on that subject since that thread has been officially closed.

WilliamM2 wrote: »

No kidding. Do you ever plan to stop?

Willy I'll add you to this too. XCapri I have not personally insulted you in this thread. I have agreed with a member.

I still don't understand how you can give advise on ANYTHING without experiencing it. Please could you and Willy share your experiences with ICs and speaker cables for the OP. I think if you are going to give advice you atleast owe him something other than what you have read . . . like your experience.

WilliamM2

I still don't understand how you can give advise on ANYTHING without experiencing it.

I have experienced it, and explained that to you on a couple other occasions when you asked. Not my problem if you can't remember it.

hearingimpared

WilliamM2 wrote: »

I have experienced it, and explained that to you on a couple other occasions when you asked. Not my problem if you can't remember it.

Sorry my memory is failing. I think your experience & opinion holds more weight than XCapri's as you have done some testing. If you say you've done some testing, I'll take your word for it.

BlueFox

This ended up being a bit longer than I expected, so skip if you have ADD.

Yesterday in the Bi-wire thread I mentioned I was going to upgrade my HT from hardware store 12 gauge twisted copper to Mapleshade Clearview Double Helix with Plus upgrade speaker cable. It turns out this was an all day job that killed my lower back, but it was worth it.

I disconnected everything, completely gutted the room, cleaned the room, and then reassembled everything with the new cables. But, I also cleaned all the connections, and put a conductivity enhancer, Mapleshade SilClear, on the audio and AC connections. Consequently, because I made two changes at the same time to the HT, I cannot state which change makes up what percentage of improvement I heard. Unfortunately for the Luddites, there was a big improvement in sound quality once I put everything back together.

First some HT history. A little over two years ago I upgraded the HT to an external amp (Sunfire TGA5400), and it really made the 4 LSi15s, and LSiC sound a lot better. It wasn’t that they did not sound great before (or so I thought), they sounded even better now. Because of that, I started wondering about the speaker cable. While I was aware of the existence of “better” speaker wire, I was still mostly old-school, and believed that all things being equal (metal, gauge, insulation, etc.), wire is wire.

However, at the time I was using in the HT a mismatch of cable sizes (14, 16, 18), and one of the cables was 2 cables spliced together with wire-nuts. While this seemed to work fine (the longest run is 16 feet), I decided to “upgrade”, went to the hardware store, and bought a continuous piece of 12 gauge, stranded, twisted copper. I forgot the price, but it was inexpensive, low voltage wire.

I then cut an exact length of wire to each speaker, and added 12 gauge jumpers to each speaker. Later that night during its test I remember thinking this is a lot better. It’s an obvious improvement. Unfortunately, this started me wondering if more expensive wire could provide an even better improvement. If the inexpensive upgrade worked so well maybe there is something to the “wire makes a difference” debate.

A year later, after thinking about this subject, and reading all the CP threads, and other stories, I decided to try a moderately expensive cable upgrade in my living room 2 channel system, which by that time was all new, and relatively expensive, equipment, except for the speaker wire. In my mind $400 for an 8 foot pair of speaker cables is expensive, so I purchased the Mapleshade cable I later used in this HT upgrade. The difference in the 2 channel setup was night and day. The cable I was currently using came with my SDA-2 purchase in the late 80s, and while it was huge, twisted copper, it was slippery, and greasy to the touch, even after cleaning, so I think the hardware store cable was better than this stuff.

Since this upgrade worked so well over the last year, I recently spent $825 for a new upgrade from Omega Micro Cables (Planar Speaker 1, bottom of the line), and this also was a positive step up with the 2 channel system providing more detail, lower bass response, and less bright highs.

Back to the present, last night for a cable test, I watched the BR versions of Terminator 3, and The Fifth Element, which are my reference DVDs, since I like the movies, and have watched each one a dozen times, or more. Anyway, I am now hearing things in the sound track I either never noticed before, or things that used to be subtle backgrounds noises, are now more apparent. Music is also sounding a lot better on the LSi15s.

To me, one of the pleasures of watching a movie is paying attention to what is going on in the background, and how the soundtrack is affecting the mood. They do give Oscars for the soundtrack, so you know someone is putting some thought and effort into it. In my mind this a big reason to try and have a good HT. There is so much more to a movie than a sub going boom, boom, boom.

Last night I kept the sub turned off in order to clearly evaluate any difference in sound quality between the old and new wire. The LSi15s did a more than decent job of handing any low end so that the sub, while certainly useful, was not really needed to enjoy the movies. Anyway, with both movies I found myself watching the movie as if for the first time, and laughing at the new and improved sound. Something different was certainly happening here.

Even if imaginary, it was definitely a worthwhile upgrade. So flail away, and keep telling me I am delusional, and not hearing anything different, no matter what the cable. Maybe I am, but I suspect the delusional shoe is really on the other person’s foot.

hearingimpared

Nice right up BlueFox. When was the last time I told you I love Mapleshade products?:D

BlueFox

hearingimpared wrote: »

When was the last time I told you I love Mapleshade products?:D

Thanks. Never, once, two dozen times??


I need to try something different so that I can stop sounding as if I work there, but so far everything has worked as advertised, so its hard to change.

However, I will take this opportunity to point out a weakness in the Clearview Cable, and the Mapleshade analog/digital interconnect design. They are extremely fragile, so you need to be very careful installing and moving equipment.

The Clearview speaker wire is soft, solid copper, and must be 18-20 gauge it is so small. Both in the living room, and last night in the HT, I broke a wire off at one of the binding posts. Somehow, a few weeks ago, I, or a cat, ripped one of the analog ribbons from the RCA shell, so I need to return it for repair.

So, while Mapleshade wire does it’s job, if you have kids, pets, or are constantly moving your gear, you probably should look at something else.

halo71

everpress wrote: »

If a friend of mine tells me that Adriana Lima is crappy in bed, I've no right to go around telling everyone... However... If I sleep with Adriana Lima, and my wife somehow doesn't kill me... I can give a firsthand account and tell everyone what I know.

Best analogy I have seen yet on the debate of cables.


I would LOVE for someone to let me borrow some decent cables to test out for myself on my rather meager rig. And though, not doubting at all. I would love to hear the difference over the Monster cables I am presently using.

concealer404

xcapri79 wrote: »

With respect to speaker wire, my point is that I agree with the recommendations of both Polk Audio and Roger Russell. I offered this good advice in response to the OP's question.

When unfairly attacked with personal insults directed to Roger Russell and me, I defended us and presented ample evidence concerning documented audio myths.

Sure, and 97% of us have provided more than ample evidence that we hear a difference and don't give a **** what we SEE on a screen.

Answer my question.

concealer404 wrote:

And for Christ's sake.... why the HELL would anyone be so hung up on what they SEE on a TABLE or a VISUAL MEASURING DEVICE in a hobby that is about what you HEAR?

ANSWER THE QUESTION.

While you're at it, please tell us what experience you have on the matter. And don't even bother trying to tell us about all the crap you've READ on the internet. We want to know what you've HEARD, since that's what the hobby is about. This isn't interior decorating with stereos. This is what it SOUNDS like.

So answer the question.

ben62670

X crapie's opion holds as much water as a sieve. Really who would have a Capri and brag about it enough to use it for a screen name. I guess if you set the bar for taste with a generic car like that you can't expect much from him audio wise:rolleyes:

polkie4life

halo71 wrote: »

Best analogy I have seen yet on the debate of cables.


I would LOVE for someone to let me borrow some decent cables to test out for myself on my rather meager rig. And though, not doubting at all. I would love to hear the difference over the Monster cables I am presently using.

If you were in NZ halo i would lend you my cables to try. I just went from monster .5s biwire to A'quest rocket 44... What a difference, like night and day, has improved everything and i mean everything.

NJPOLKER

Another example of why some people grow up and get it and some don't.

I had to edit this or should I say add to it.

LOSER you said it in your own words ,as follows

xcapri79 wrote: »

Mine wasn't generic and was certainly a head turner in jet black with 4 barrel V8 power, Hooker header rumble, and Centerline shine. At way less money new and modified, it could have any newer Camaro Z28, TransAm, or Datson 280Z turbo for dinner. Plus it could carry a stove in the back.

Had a lot of fun in it and kept it for a decade. It was terrible in the snow though and didn't like 40 below when I moved to Alberta. Sold it and got an AWD Chrysler extended minivan which was all the rage for multichildren families at the time.

So criticize all you like. You are just jealous.;)

inspiredsports

xcapri79 wrote: »

Mine wasn't generic and was certainly a head turner in jet black with 4 barrel V8 power, Hooker header rumble, and Centerline shine. At way less money new and modified, it could have any newer Camaro Z28, TransAm, or Datson 280Z turbo for dinner. Plus it could carry a stove in the back.

Had a lot of fun in it and kept it for a decade. It was terrible in the snow though and didn't like 40 below when I moved to Alberta. Sold it and got an AWD Chrysler extended minivan which was all the rage for multichildren families at the time - especially with those with kids who played hockey.:)

So criticize all you like. You are just jealous.;)

I can visualize you now . . .

. . . ruffled collars, gold chains, and a disco ball dangling from that Capri's rear view mirror . . . :eek:

superjunior

hearingimpared wrote: »

The poor OP must be banging his head against the wall.

I know I am...

gp4jesus

Hmm... this topic of wire, gage/quality of same, and ICs seems to be as, if not more, controversial than Christ's existance.
Before I give my $.02 worth: If the RTi A5s have the same banana jacks as the RTi A1s, you can use 8 or 10 gage. I'm using fresh, new OFC AR 12 gage with my A1s (surround channels cut off @ 100hz) I plan to purchase A5s myself for front L&R. Using separate stereo amp for a CSI A6-I have the wire and channels available so why not!
My EXPERIENCE on gage is simple: BIGGER IS BETTER!!. I've told these stories many times, but never on-line.
Experience 1: a pair of speakers that I paid $650 in 1980. About 6 months after I got them I decided to rewire them w/12 ga monster cable. Did one cabinet. Reconnected it to my system w/the other the other speaker still stock. Had to set the balance control between 10 & 11 o'clock to "balance" the modest volume setting. when I did the other speaker that "balance" problem went away.
Experience 2: about 10 years later, had a pair of subs with 2 12s in each, one driver daisey chained to the other. They came hard wired w/about 10' of 10 ga Monster cable. I EXO'd @ 110 hz, driving them with a Belles Series I power amp. One day I decided to rewire them. In a nutshell, I shortend the cable and gave each driver its own connection. Yeah that right-twice as thick, half as long. Had to make a signifcant change to XO LP setting because EVERYTHING sounded fat & heavy.

Experience 2 served to fortify my belief with experience 1. I plan to rewire all my HT speakers given time & bi-amp the LCR channels! I'll visit another time w/ my experience with ICs.
So to anyone that preaches wire size doesn't matter... ...you best plan to take 29 years to change my mind! And it will be a hard sell!

vc69

When am I going to learn? I just wasted another 20 minutes of my life. :eek:

BlueFox

BlueFox wrote: »

However, I will take this opportunity to point out a weakness in the Clearview Cable, and the Mapleshade analog/digital interconnect design. They are extremely fragile, so you need to be very careful installing and moving equipment.

The Clearview speaker wire is soft, solid copper, and must be 18-20 gauge it is so small. Both in the living room, and last night in the HT, I broke a wire off at one of the binding posts. Somehow, a few weeks ago, I, or a cat, ripped one of the analog ribbons from the RCA shell, so I need to return it for repair.

Yesterday, I went to the Omega Mikro web-site to get some information on the Planar 1 speaker cable I had purchased, and really like for its performance. Anyway, I went to the Product page, and there were no products listed. My first thought was I screwed up, but after trying multiple times and finding no products, I sent an email to the “Contact us” link, and said I cannot see any products listed.

A few hours later I received an email from Ron Bauman thanking me for my input, and asking me to try it now, since there was a problem. It was working better, but still no speaker cables were displayed. One more email, and it was fixed. After that, I jokingly suggested I should get a discount on my analog cable repair.

Ron replied that it will be fixed for free.

For me, that is customer service, and a great way to end the year, and start the new.


Omega Mikro and Mapleshade are joint companies.

Omega Mikro
http://www.omegamikro.com/