180g vinyl: lead-in groove tracking problems

Bubinga99

I recently got a turntable (Technics 1210M5G and Denon DL160 cartridge). Up til now, it's worked fine with my old vinyl. I have it set at 1.6 grams, right in the middle of the recommended range, and anti-skating to match.

Even though I swore I wouldn't buy any *new* vinyl, I did buy three 180g pressings for xmas. All 3 (and it's 3 different record labels) won't track the lead-in groove. When I set the needle down it skips in several grooves, missing the first few seconds.

Increasing to 1.8 grams and increasing the anti-skating to 2.0 seems to be necessary (and even that only works sometimes) to get it to play from the beginning.

What is it about 180g pressings that would make this problem only appear with them?
(though they sure sound good once they get going)

george daniel

what is the high end of the tracking force for your cart?

Bubinga99

1.9 grams is the max for the DL160.

1.6 worked just fine for the couple dozen regular vinyl records I've played, and it tracks the 180g vinyl fine once it gets past the lead-in groove.

Do you find you need higher tracking force for your 180g vinyl?

hearingimpared

The lead in bead on 180 & 200 gm pressings are thicker and wider than your run-of-the-mill vinyl. If the DL160 is a low compliance or even a medium compliance cartridge that may be your issue. Check the spec sheet for the cart and see what the compliance is and make sure it is a good match for your tonearm.

nooshinjohn

I had this issue as well with my DL160 and my Yamaha PX-3. I had to run 2grams tracking force for a bit. Once I releveled the table and corrected the tracking angle the trouble went away. I am running 1.3grams tracking force now without difficulty.

Bubinga99

hearingimpared wrote: »

The lead in bead on 180 & 200 gm pressings are thicker and wider than your run-of-the-mill vinyl. If the DL160 is a low compliance or even a medium compliance cartridge that may be your issue. Check the spec sheet for the cart and see what the compliance is and make sure it is a good match for your tonearm.

The tonearm weight without the cartridge is 12g. I added the 4g screw-in weight because the cartridge is light (4.8g).

The cartridge compliance is 10x10-6 cm/dyne.

So I guess the combination is a low compliance cartridge with a moderate mass tonearm, which is supposed to be a good match according to this:
http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/tonearmcartridge.html

I leveled the tonearm based on regular thickness vinyl, so with the thicker 180g the cartridge end is slightly higher. Should I level it with the 180g instead?

hearingimpared

Bubinga99 wrote: »

I leveled the tonearm based on regular thickness vinyl, so with the thicker 180g the cartridge end is slightly higher. Should I level it with the 180g instead?

I'm confused. If you level the tonearm it should remain level despite the record thickness. Are you sure the cartridge end of the tonearm JUST looks like it's higher because of the record thickness?

Polkersince85

Use a stylus gage to make sure the tracking force dial is on the money.

Bubinga99

Sorry, my bad. There is an overall arm height adjustment at the pivot end of the arm, which you set based on the cartridge height, using a table in the owners manual. That's what I meant, as opposed to balancing.

In the manual for the turntable they say you can also check this height by eye-balling it with the cartridge playing a record, and if the arm isn't level, adjust the height (not while it's playing) and check it again.

So what I didn't describe very well is I could re-adjust this height based on the thickness of 180g vinyl, so the arm is horizontal in that case. But that would mean the cartridge end is sloping down for regular vinyl.

Is there one geometry that is more prone to skipping than the other (i.e. cartridge end lower versus higher) since I can't have it both ways at a fixed setting?

(edit: John, is this height adjustment what you mean by tracking angle?)

erniejade

I have had some isses with some of the 180g myself with raspy sounding like mistracking sounding. Tried it with the 160 and a goldring 1042 . Same on both.

The hight VTA is what I think you are refering to. YES that does make a differece.

george daniel

Assuming tha your VTA is optimal, you might want to try tracking at the higher end of your cart.specs.My setup (scout and dyna cart) runs better at the higher end of the dart tracking force (2 grams).Good luck,and keep us posted.

hearingimpared

Bubinga99 wrote: »

Sorry, my bad. There is an overall arm height adjustment at the pivot end of the arm, which you set based on the cartridge height, using a table in the owners manual. That's what I meant, as opposed to balancing.

In the manual for the turntable they say you can also check this height by eye-balling it with the cartridge playing a record, and if the arm isn't level, adjust the height (not while it's playing) and check it again.

So what I didn't describe very well is I could re-adjust this height based on the thickness of 180g vinyl, so the arm is horizontal in that case. But that would mean the cartridge end is sloping down for regular vinyl.

Is there one geometry that is more prone to skipping than the other (i.e. cartridge end lower versus higher) since I can't have it both ways at a fixed setting?

(edit: John, is this height adjustment what you mean by tracking angle?)

What you are describing is the vertical tracking angle (VTA). I set my VTA to what I determined to be the average thickness of all my records. P85 is dead on about using a stylus force guage to make sure the dial on your tonearm is correct. You can get one for as little as $20.

EDIT: oooopppps didn't see the above two posts.

hearingimpared

george daniel wrote: »

Assuming tha your VTA is optimal, you might want to try tracking at the higher end of your cart.specs.My setup (scout and dyna cart) runs better at the higher end of the dart tracking force (2 grams).Good luck,and keep us posted.

That would adjust the SRA (stylus rake angle) which will have a much more dramatic effect on dialing in your table.

Bubinga99

Thanks for the info guys. I put the tracking force and anti-skating back to 1.6g and messed with the VTA.

I had the VTA set based on a table in the manual, using the cartridge height from its manual, at 0.5mm. Increasing this to about 4mm gives reliable tracking of the lead-in grooves on 180g vinyl. With the VTA set at 2mm it still won't track, and at 3mm it tracks about 3 out of 4.

So, while this solves the tracking problem with 180g vinyl, it's quite a bit higher than the recommended setting. Are there any wear or sound quality issues to be concerned about, with the VTA higher than the recommended height?

I might be able to drop the VTA a bit with a bit higher tracking force. Haven't tried that yet.

(edit: Keiko, didn't see your post until my latest was posted. I'll try lighter as well, VTA back to original, and check the mount)

erniejade

Remember the 180 is thicker and slightly higher... The 1200, that is one of my fave things. I have had other tables where to change the vta you had to dtake part of it apart! Was a pain in the but!!

hearingimpared

Bubinga99 wrote: »

Thanks for the info guys. I put the tracking force and anti-skating back to 1.6g and messed with the VTA.

I had the VTA set based on a table in the manual, using the cartridge height from its manual, at 0.5mm. Increasing this to about 4mm gives reliable tracking of the lead-in grooves on 180g vinyl. With the VTA set at 2mm it still won't track, and at 3mm it tracks about 3 out of 4.

So, while this solves the tracking problem with 180g vinyl, it's quite a bit higher than the recommended setting. Are there any wear or sound quality issues to be concerned about, with the VTA higher than the recommended height?

I might be able to drop the VTA a bit with a bit higher tracking force. Haven't tried that yet.

(edit: Keiko, didn't see your post until my latest was posted. I'll try lighter as well, VTA back to original, and check the mount)

If you hear any distortion while playing your regular records then I would lower the VTA as distortion is the stylus not tracking correctly and will wear out your records.

Fongolio

Also, it's very important to make sure the table itself is dead level.

george daniel

hearingimpared wrote: »

That would adjust the SRA (stylus rake angle) which will have a much more dramatic effect on dialing in your table.

Yep-- you are correct sir,:o, and that is why I paid to have mine setup,:o,LOL,,I probabally need to watch the vidieo again, as I just installed(myself) the VPI aftermarket "antiskate",,I'm keeping quiet from here on.To the OP--did you get it dialed in ?