Need More CONTROL!

AudioFilet

One of the most frustrating things for me to deal with in 2 channel audio is the nearly complete lack of bass management & subwoofer control by most of the equipment around today. This is important to me because all CD's & LP's are not created equal, and there seems to almost always be some sort of adjustment needed to the subwoofer level when changing media. Almost no preamps or integrateds offer a front panel level control for this, even if they have bass management. This is one of the features I am going to buy the Parasound 2100 for, besides it being a really nice preamp. It will at least eliminate the need for an external crossover like I have been using. I recently bought the Emotiva USP-1 preamp because I liked the bass management features it offers (can't beat the price either). I figured I could get around all this by moving the sub to the corner (it sounds better there anyway), then it would be no big deal to reach behind it to make adjustments. Wifey took care of that after about 2 weeks though. Plants, candles, cat box & all piled up around my sub. Can't even get close to it anymore.

My question is, why is something like this almost universally ignored by equipment makers??

cfrizz

Oh HELL NO! I would go ballistic if I came home & found plants sitting on top of my speakers!

I once DID go off on Marks former GF for doing just that. She thought I was crazy but I let her know if my speaker was damaged SHE would have to get me a new pair.

GET THAT CRAP OFF OF YOUR SPEAKERS!

dkg999

I gotta agree with cfrizz! Bass management is a secondary concern. Crap management is your primary concern!

Face

Simple, but a pair of full range towers and lose the sub along with all those plants.

LessisNevermore

I'd ask the wife to bend over and place HER head damn near inside that catbox, and ask her if she's ok with that, and why it's ok that you have to.

BTW, I agree completely with the bass management issue, and because of it, those are the same two preamps I'm looking at. I don't have the space for two separate rigs, so mine has to do double-duty.

Also agree with cfrizz & dkg, buy her some plant stands, because they don't belong on electrical equipment. If she gives you a hard time over it, explain to her how water and electricity do not mix. It's a fire hazard. No plant is worth the risk of burning down your house.

concealer404

My B&K does bass management, to an extent.

kawizx9r

Poor LSi's and sub

That's why I made it clear to my wife that the living room is mine and nothing crazy/exotic goes near my gear unless I put it there!

BlueFox

AudioFilet wrote: »

My question is, why is something like this almost universally ignored by equipment makers??

Because one does not use a sub for two-channel, unless you are a basshole, and like your RAP really load and annoying.

organ

AudioFilet wrote: »

My question is, why is something like this almost universally ignored by equipment makers??

Most 2ch equipment makers and listeners usually don't like the idea of using a sub in 2ch. That's why it's not 2.1;).

Instead of using interconnects, try running another set of wires to the speaker level input on the sub. This should give you a better phase match with your mains. The tonal balance should be closer as well. So you do your bass management and phase on the sub.

There is a chance that the more complicated x-over of your pre is giving you a different phase at the output compared to your amp. Pretty hard to fix if you don't have a variable phase control. Sometimes the problem lies somewhere between the 0 and 180 degree range. So playing around with placement is your only solution if you don't have variable control.

Are you running your LSi full range? What's your cut-off freq on the sub?

I have a pair of LSi9 and have spent quite a bit of time trying to integrate my PSW650 with. I ran them full range and set the sub at 40Hz. The volume was pretty low because it was set to pretty much where the 9's roll off. So with the sub on, it added that weight and extension the 9's couldn't do on their own. Make sure your sub is not accentuating any bass from the LSi's.

Hope this helps.

AudioFilet

organ wrote: »

Are you running your LSi full range? What's your cut-off freq on the sub?

Using the bass management on the preamp, sub cut-off is about 100hz, LSi's cut off at about 80hz. Using the LFE input on the sub. Most of the time this is all good, but once in a while with different CD's or LP's the sub level needs to be adjusted up or down a little. Just a simple adjustment, but aarrrghhgr!!

LessisNevermore

BlueFox wrote: »

Because one does not use a sub for two-channel, unless you are a basshole, and like your RAP really load and annoying.

Or, you have 5.25" drivers that are most definitely NOT full range. In this case one does use a sub, or you miss out.

F1nut

Some carpet and curtains would do wonders for the sound like finding bass you didn't know the LSi 9's have.

Anyway, to address your question....

My question is, why is something like this almost universally ignored by equipment makers??

For the same reason real pre amps and integrated amps don't have tone controls.

AudioFilet

F1nut wrote: »

For the same reason real pre amps and integrated amps don't have tone controls.

And what reason would that be, specifically?

CRESCENDOPOWER

I agree with F1nut. With a room like that just save your money until you at least get some carpet down.:D

Toolfan66

Dude those plants need to go in a big way, anything that needs water needs to not be on "ANY" equipment.

Need rugs or carpet (as stated above)
Cat box needs to go.
Plants gone/or wife. your choice:)
the placement of the 9's looks awkward but I can't see the rest of your setup.
Wire managment.

and forget about tone controls all I found is they make the music sound muddy. the better the preamp and amp you get the better clarity and BASS you will get. no tone controls needed and no sub needed IMNSHO.

tonyb

All good points, and I agree with all of the above comments. Plants need to go, that speaker is aimed along the wall ? Dude,re-arrange that room, throw an area rug down and put up some curtains, and get that stuff off the speakers.

As far as the bass management goes, my B&K does it very well also,as well as some pre/pro's but the 2 channel bass management you seek,the control you want,is all in that room, along with speaker placement. Normally as others have said, the lack of bass management in 2 channel pre's is because most who just listen to 2 channel are purists. They know how to set up a system for optimal listening. They know moving a speaker 6 inches in or out from the wall will give different bass response,and so forth. You can't get the bass to sound right because of the way you have it set up my man.You have some nice speakers and a good sub there,do them some justice and set up the room properly, or just get a bose wave radio and forgetaboutit.:)

AudioFilet

Well, you can't see it from the picture, but there is a large area rug right in front of the speakers, the walls are covered with large photographs mounted on foam boards along with acoustic foam panels, and each corner has bass traps.

One thing has me confused now though. I understand that a lot of people consider tone controls evil, and I don't use them myself (mainly because I have none). But how did a subwoofer level control become the equivalent evil of a tone control? I don't get it.

Hawkeye

I have neither tone controls or bass management in my 2 channel set. The only bass control I have is built into the subs which are versatile enough to give me all the control I need.

After spending an enormous amount of time blending my subs with the mains, I would not think of changing the amount of bass being produced. Bottom line is some music is not mixed well, in either the bass, mids or highs. I have learned to accept the limitations of the music piece and enjoy it as recorded or produced.

Chasing bass, mids or highs for every different piece of music takes the enjoyment out of listening to music to me. I accept that not all music is mixed well and refuse to chase my tail after changing Cd's. A happy medium serves my music listening well.

Gordon

turbopantera

I love bass, always have, they are fun to catch and taste pretty good deep fried! But seriously, I like good strong solid bass. In the past I used the bass control or an eq to add some bass. But once I discovered good speakers (SDA), I have bass that sounds good without enhancement. However, as I have moved my system from what I could get for a dollar at rummage sales to a high end 2ch system, I have discovered that not all music is created equal. I find that my speakers have great bass and some music just does not have any bass content. Of course, when I used the bass knob, it would give all music bass. I have now come to accept that music is listened to as recorded and actually sounds better that way. The only thing I might consider would be a very high slope bass emphasis circuit designed around the dropoff frequency of the specific speakers and room acoustics but no more.

So your problem may not be a lack of equipment features but the fact that your equipment is good enough that it is accurately representing the music as recorded.

F1nut

AudioFilet wrote: »

And what reason would that be, specifically?

The extra circuitry required adds noise to the signal path.

Thanks for posting the second picture of your room. When you stand in the middle and clap your hands together do you hear any echo/reverb?

madmax

cfrizz wrote: »

Oh HELL NO!

I almost spit coffee all over my desk when I read that.

Bass control is not needed. You want everything to sound the same no matter what the material. It doesn't. You want everything to sound its best. It won't. Just give up and listen to what is on the recording. If you don't like the way it is recorded then find some different material.
madmax

organ

+1 on what Madmax said.

Constantly fiddling around with the settings will prevent you from really enjoying your system (unless you like it). Just run the system and enjoy your music, sub or no sub. Most recordings sound like crap and that's something we have to accept when listening through our systems.

madmax

Assuming everything else is setup properly I really do understand the delimma. It sucks when something you really like just doesn't measure up bass wise. After I finally gave up I started noticing that on some recordings (not all) the bass was different for a reason. Maybe it was to allow you to hear a string bass, maybe throughout a performance the bass changes on different songs to add excitement, maybe it was to allow other sounds more pronunciation, all sorts of things. I now like most material with less bass than I used to. Exagerated bass covers up a lot of sounds that are worth hearing so keep in mind it is only one small part of a much bigger whole.

AudioFilet

F1nut wrote: »

Thanks for posting the second picture of your room. When you stand in the middle and clap your hands together do you hear any echo/reverb?

No slap echo in the room, the room treatments I used seem to have done the job.

It would seem that some of you guys have misunderstood my original post. I am in no way dissatisfied with the way my system performs, the way it sounds or even the bass response I have. I actually like it, and think it sounds great. In fact, I like it a lot. Most of the time, I like to turn it up fairly loud, and sometimes the recording seems to either have too much bass or maybe it is a little lacking and I would like to tweak it. This is maybe 10% of the time? Maybe 1% of the time it aggravates me enough to adjust the sub output, since I have no stinking tone controls. If I did, I would probably use tha damn things. I think I should be happy with the Parasound 2100 (I know, not a "real" preamp), with it's front-mounted sub level control. Damn thing still doesn't have any stinking tone controls, though. Oh well. Can't have it all, I guess.

madmax

AudioFilet wrote: »

I have. I actually like it, and think it sounds great. In fact, I like it a lot. Most of the time, I like to turn it up fairly loud, and sometimes the recording seems to either have too much bass or maybe it is a little lacking and I would like to tweak it. This is maybe 10% of the time? Maybe 1% of the time it aggravates me enough to adjust the sub output, since I have no stinking tone controls.

For me, at least, this is exactly where I thought you were. Sit back and enjoy the sound!

Hawkeye

When I set up my subs, my goal was flat to 20 Hz and came very close to that with traps and the adjustments available on the subs. Considering there is not much audible that low, the subsonics fill in the bottom.

Poorly recorded music on a revealing system can be a recipe for audio nervosa As long as the system is playing accurately, some things just won't be where WE want them. So either fiddle with it or sit back with your favorite beverage and say it's all good!

Gordon

organ

Have you done any measurements of your freq response? There could be many reasons for your fluctuating bass and I doubt any of us can pin point the source of the problem.

Since you don't mind having tone controls and bass management on your pre, you might want to look at a quality equalizer to place between your source and pre, or pre and amp. You can still keep your current pre but have a lot more control with the eq.

snow

IMHO the worse thing a fellow can do is have a sub for two channel music and in most cases using a sub with smaller speakers does not sound natural if for no other reason then most subs were not designed for music they were designed for HT and they show it by sucking at blending in with music tracks.

I have discovered in most cases the reason why it seems there isnt enough or low enough bass is due to the amp being used, if one both has full range speakers and a decent amp there will be no need for a sub or a preamp with tone controls with two channel.

I think that most of the bass that is actually on a music track and that you hear is between 30hz to 80hz if you have speakers that play this low and an amp that can accurately produce them your in business. The next big thing is your room and any needed treatments carpet drapes etc.

I just noticed that you had the Emotiva UPA-2 for two channel music get rid of it and get a real amp and you will notice a big difference in bass reproduction.




REGARDS SNOW

AudioFilet

snow wrote: »

I just noticed that you had the Emotiva UPA-2 for two channel music get rid of it and get a real amp and you will notice a big difference in bass reproduction.




REGARDS SNOW

So, you would not consider the LSi15 & 25 for 2 channel because of the subwoofers?

What speakers were you using when you auditioned the UPA-2?

snow

AudioFilet wrote: »

So, you would not consider the LSi15 & 25 for 2 channel because of the subwoofers?

What speakers were you using when you auditioned the UPA-2?

I thought that might get your attention nothing like a crack at another mans gear to get them wide awake.

Actually the LSi15 & 25 would be great for two channel neither of them have seperate subwoofers, the 15 uses a passive side firing woofer and the 25 uses a powered woofer but the crossover is designed to work as a cohesive unit on both of these.

Regarding the UPA-2 I have never heard it nor do I have any need or desire to do so. I know from personal experience that the specs on this amp is not good enough to power your LSi9's well enough to do your speakers justice. It may well be the best amp for the $250.00 it costs, out there for all I know but not the amp for any of the LSi line.

I am not saying this to run down the emotiva brand or your gear just that I have been where your at now and trust me you need a high current amp to do these justice.

The bass will improve dramatically if you were to mate these with a nice class A amp or a Adcom GFA-555 or a Sunfire 300 X 2 or a Carver TFM-35 or a Parasound 200 wpc amp or something similar, all of these can be had in the used amp market for less then 1k and most of them for less than $500.00



REGARDS SNOW

AudioFilet

snow wrote: »

The bass will improve dramatically if you were to mate these with a nice class A amp or a Adcom GFA-555 or a Sunfire 300 X 2 or a Carver TFM-35 or a Parasound 200 wpc amp or something similar, all of these can be had in the used amp market for less then 1k and most of them for less than $500.00
REGARDS SNOW

The UPA-2 is only a temporary amp for me at the moment (it's only $250!), but I am not at all unhappy with the bass response or the performance of the amp. It is suprisingly good.

The post is actually whining about lousy recordings and trying to compensate for them when it is needed, which is not all that often really. It's about CONTROL!