PS3 or Oppo BDP-83

wetcoast

I was wondering if someone might give me a hand in answering the question that's been bugging me lately.

Is there any difference between an older 80GB PS3 (play SACD) and an Oppo BDP-83 if I plan to use the HDMI to a pre/pro that will handle True HD and scale the video?

TIA

vc69

Scaling/deinterlacing ad decoding of Hirez codecs are it's strong suits. If you are doing outboard processing, I can see no advantage.

AsSiMiLaTeD

I would think that the oppo would be better, but don't know why really. I have a ps3 and am happy with it for BD playback

BlueFox

The upgraded Oppo for analog playback might be better than the PS3 for SACD/CD/etc. Of course, it will cost you $800.

leroyjr1

For the price the ps3 is hard to beat.

dpowell

You've got a really nice HT rig. I'd go with the Oppo.

wetcoast

dpowell wrote: »

You've got a really nice HT rig. I'd go with the Oppo.

I really like the Oppo specs but I also like the gaming ability of the PS3. If there's no video/audio difference over HDMI with external processing then I definitely want a PS3 to take advantage of the gaming.

kuntasensei

Video quality for BD will be about the same between them. The Oppo has the upper hand on upscaling DVD, but that's a zero sum game if you're using outboard scaling. Older PS3s like yours do not let you bitstream the hi-res codecs, meaning you're stuck sending multichannel PCM (though as long as your pre-pro properly handles the LFE boost and you don't have jitter issues with your cabling, there's no audible difference), whereas the Oppo can bitstream anything, including DSD. Also, a beta firmware was released this week that adds media streaming from DLNA servers and subtitle shifting for people with 2.35:1 screens. I'm very happy with mine... but honestly, if you already have a PS3 and don't need the Oppo to play DVD-Audio, it seems like you already have what you need.

wetcoast

kuntasensei wrote: »

Video quality for BD will be about the same between them. The Oppo has the upper hand on upscaling DVD, but that's a zero sum game if you're using outboard scaling. Older PS3s like yours do not let you bitstream the hi-res codecs, meaning you're stuck sending multichannel PCM (though as long as your pre-pro properly handles the LFE boost and you don't have jitter issues with your cabling, there's no audible difference), whereas the Oppo can bitstream anything, including DSD. Also, a beta firmware was released this week that adds media streaming from DLNA servers and subtitle shifting for people with 2.35:1 screens. I'm very happy with mine... but honestly, if you already have a PS3 and don't need the Oppo to play DVD-Audio, it seems like you already have what you need.

Great info! Thanks a lot!

Tomasito

At present I don't have a blu-ray player.

Can you guys explain to me what bit stream of hi-res codec mean?

Erik Tracy

Tomasito wrote: »

At present I don't have a blu-ray player.

Can you guys explain to me what bit stream of hi-res codec mean?

Many blurays encode the audio portion of a movie using a lossless audio compression algorithm to save space on the bluray.

The two formats are DTS-HD MA and TrueHD. They use different algorithms to perform the audio compression.

When you play back a movie on your player you can either have the player perform the uncompression of the audio and send it to your avr as uncompressed audio (in PCM format) or you can 'bitstream' the compressed audio directly off of the disc and let your AVR do the uncompressing.

The uncompressed audio is the same PCM format whether you let the player do it or the AVR. It's like unzipping a file - who cares whether you do it on your laptop or your desktop - the unzipped file is the same.

But, if you do 'bitstream' the audio to your AVR and let it do the uncompressing - you get to see a cool tiny light on your AVR come on for either True HD or DTS-HD MA.

Some folks get a jolly from that.... your call.....:D

wetcoast

Erik Tracy wrote: »

Many blurays encode the audio portion of a movie using a lossless audio compression algorithm to save space on the bluray.

The two formats are DTS-HD MA and TrueHD. They use different algorithms to perform the audio compression.

When you play back a movie on your player you can either have the player perform the uncompression of the audio and send it to your avr as uncompressed audio (in PCM format) or you can 'bitstream' the compressed audio directly off of the disc and let your AVR do the uncompressing.

The uncompressed audio is the same PCM format whether you let the player do it or the AVR. It's like unzipping a file - who cares whether you do it on your laptop or your desktop - the unzipped file is the same.

But, if you do 'bitstream' the audio to your AVR and let it do the uncompressing - you get to see a cool tiny light on your AVR come on for either True HD or DTS-HD MA.

Some folks get a jolly from that.... your call.....:D

More great info! Thanks!

potee

Erik Tracy wrote: »

Many blurays encode the audio portion of a movie using a lossless audio compression algorithm to save space on the bluray.

The two formats are DTS-HD MA and TrueHD. They use different algorithms to perform the audio compression.

When you play back a movie on your player you can either have the player perform the uncompression of the audio and send it to your avr as uncompressed audio (in PCM format) or you can 'bitstream' the compressed audio directly off of the disc and let your AVR do the uncompressing.

The uncompressed audio is the same PCM format whether you let the player do it or the AVR. It's like unzipping a file - who cares whether you do it on your laptop or your desktop - the unzipped file is the same.

But, if you do 'bitstream' the audio to your AVR and let it do the uncompressing - you get to see a cool tiny light on your AVR come on for either True HD or DTS-HD MA.

Some folks get a jolly from that.... your call.....:D

Nice explanation I will now forget about wanting to get a new PS3 slim to replace the one I already have. Thanks Paul

vc69

Erik Tracy wrote: »

<snip>

The uncompressed audio is the same PCM format whether you let the player do it or the AVR. It's like unzipping a file - who cares whether you do it on your laptop or your desktop - the unzipped file is the same.

But, if you do 'bitstream' the audio to your AVR and let it do the uncompressing - you get to see a cool tiny light on your AVR come on for either True HD or DTS-HD MA.

Some folks get a jolly from that.... your call.....:D

This is not exactly true. Yes, the audio is the same regardless of where along the chain it is decoded. However, there are differing opinions as to where the decoding to PCM is best done. I have a BDP-83 and a receiver capable of decoding the HiRez codecs and I can say that there is an audible difference on my system. I prefer to bitstream and do all processing and conversion within my receiver. YMMV

To say it's all about some lights on a display is oversimplifying the explanation and just plain misleading. There are jitter issues, processor implementations and capabilities, etc. Plus, some processors don't handle the LFE signal properly when fed linear pcm. Knowing your rig's capabilities is by far the best way to determine what to use. It is not cut and dried.

With regard to to PS3's, this thread at AVS explains things if you can wade through the BS posts.

wetcoast

I found some more info.

http://www.edepot.com/playstation3.html

Looks like only the Slim passes bitstream TrueHD

kuntasensei

vc69 wrote: »

This is not exactly true. Yes, the audio is the same regardless of where along the chain it is decoded. However, there are differing opinions as to where the decoding to PCM is best done. I have a BDP-83 and a receiver capable of decoding the HiRez codecs and I can say that there is an audible difference on my system. I prefer to bitstream and do all processing and conversion within my receiver. YMMV

To say it's all about some lights on a display is oversimplifying the explanation and just plain misleading. There are jitter issues, processor implementations and capabilities, etc. Plus, some processors don't handle the LFE signal properly when fed linear pcm. Knowing your rig's capabilities is by far the best way to determine what to use. It is not cut and dried.

With regard to to PS3's, this thread at AVS explains things if you can wade through the BS posts.

+1. You said exactly what I was going to say.

Erik Tracy

vc69 wrote: »

This is not exactly true. Yes, the audio is the same regardless of where along the chain it is decoded. However, there are differing opinions as to where the decoding to PCM is best done. I have a BDP-83 and a receiver capable of decoding the HiRez codecs and I can say that there is an audible difference on my system. I prefer to bitstream and do all processing and conversion within my receiver. YMMV

To say it's all about some lights on a display is oversimplifying the explanation and just plain misleading. There are jitter issues, processor implementations and capabilities, etc. Plus, some processors don't handle the LFE signal properly when fed linear pcm. Knowing your rig's capabilities is by far the best way to determine what to use. It is not cut and dried.

With regard to to PS3's, this thread at AVS explains things if you can wade through the BS posts.

-1 AVS postings must be taken with large doses of salt.

It may be true that specific products do not perform the uncompression correctly - but as it pertains to the bit for bit operations in the digital domain - it is either done right or not and if done right PCM is PCM.

cheddar

I think a lot of the confusion over where the decoding is handled best is summed up by processors not handling the decoded PCM consistently. Not that Eric or vc69 are wrong in their statements. Lossless decoding is supposed to ensure that the two versions are the same. But in a lot of cases where people hear a difference, it may take more work tweaking the default AVR/pre-pro settings to get it there is all. So for those that don't want to work out those issues like improper bass boost, it may be simpler to go the bitstream route.

However, unresolved processing issues will continue to affect uncompressed PCM lossless tracks. Although getting rarer, this third lossless format does continue to appear on blu-rays and is in many early ones from studios such as Disney and Sony. It's the large, uncompressed PCM file that never got compressed using TrueHD or DTS-HD MA. Unless PCM is handled properly at the AVR/pre-pro, these tracks will sound inferior to AVR/pre-pro decoded TrueHD or DTS-HD MA and even plain old dolby digital depending on what the problem is. Even though it should sound just as good if the original master is the same before compression with TrueHD or DTS-HD MA.

So for those who want to hear all three lossless formats properly, it is to their advantage to work through issues in their equipment if there is an easily detectable difference between player decoded and AVR/pre-pro decoded lossless.

petmustwi

wamly welcome

Sure all pro gamer are most welcome... if you can reach out to them it would be great!! Thanks a lot

vmaxer

petmustwi wrote: »

wamly welcome

Sure all pro gamer are most welcome... if you can reach out to them it would be great!! Thanks a lot

reported!!

Erik Tracy

-1 for me in my hasty terse reply. My bad.

Of course everyone should try what sounds best to them for their system.

Not everything is black and white - especially in system synergy.

What I was trying to convey was that *all else being equal* the function of uncompressing the lossless formats results in the same source PCM that was encoded when a BD disk was created. Of course there could be anomalies introduced at varying points in one's system that may effect the end experienced audio quality.

But one needs to do their homework - there are instances of AVRs having firmware bugs that do not decode DTSMA-HD bitstreams correctly - the result being a loud 'impulse' - known as the DTSMA-HD "bomb" for certain titles. Yamaha and Onkyo are two manufacturer's with documented problems so folks should check to see if they have the most current f/w loaded on their avrs. And, of course, if one has opted to get a higher end BD player, such as the Oppo 83SE, then I'm sure one would elect to have the player do the decoding.

Anyway....I totally agree that folks should experiment and figure out what works best for them. My bad.

wutadumsn23

I have an "older" 80GB PS3 that does all the good stuff Sony pulled out of the newer versions of the PS3, and I love it. If there is any possibility you will do any gaming and you can find an original 80GB PS3 I would jump all over it. It is, IMHO the best bang for the buck with Blu Ray players.

-Jeff

vc69

I couldn't recommend an "older" PS3 with much confidence to someone looking for a mainstay BDP. Not because of performance but instead because of lifespan issues. Those older units are going to hit the wall eventually and many have already.

With regard to the OP's original question:

"Is there any difference between an older 80GB PS3 (play SACD) and an Oppo BDP-83 if I plan to use the HDMI to a pre/pro that will handle True HD and scale the video?

I believe the answer is "no".

RE: Erik,

No harm no foul. AVS has a bunch of very knowledgeable people and some are very helpful. Like any internet forum, there are good and bad.

wetcoast

vc69 wrote: »

I couldn't recommend an "older" PS3 with much confidence to someone looking for a mainstay BDP. Not because of performance but instead because of lifespan issues. Those older units are going to hit the wall eventually and many have already.

With regard to the OP's original question:

"Is there any difference between an older 80GB PS3 (play SACD) and an Oppo BDP-83 if I plan to use the HDMI to a pre/pro that will handle True HD and scale the video?

I believe the answer is "no".

RE: Erik,

No harm no foul. AVS has a bunch of very knowledgeable people and some are very helpful. Like any internet forum, there are good and bad.

Perfect! Thanks!

vc69

wetcoast,

Unless the scaler (for SD-DVD) in your outboard processor is superb, the ABT VRS processor (in the Oppo BDP-83) will be superior. BD performance will be about the same (no scaling necessary, though there are interlaced BD's and ABT's deinterlacing is superb). Point is, with outboard processing of video, the players are merely transports. PS3's don't suck by any means, but if you are looking for high performance SD DVD playback at high resolution on a large screen, the Oppo will outperform the PS3.

wutadumsn23

vc69 wrote: »

I couldn't recommend an "older" PS3 with much confidence to someone looking for a mainstay BDP. Not because of performance but instead because of lifespan issues. Those older units are going to hit the wall eventually and many have already.QUOTE]

Any piece of audio equipment, whether it be a multi function unit like the PS3 or a stand alone like the Oppo has a lifespan. The PS3 (atleast in my experience) has a pretty good lifespan and I still have one of the older PS3 models that was part of their "original release" My 80GB is coming up on 3 years or so old, and no issues to report at all (knocks on wood) IMHO lifespan is not that big of an issue, like I said everything electronic with moving parts is going to break eventually. Just my $.02


-Jeff

danz1906

wetcoast wrote: »

I was wondering if someone might give me a hand in answering the question that's been bugging me lately.

Is there any difference between an older 80GB PS3 (play SACD) and an Oppo BDP-83 if I plan to use the HDMI to a pre/pro that will handle True HD and scale the video?

TIA

Go for the Oppo!

cnh

An interesting discussion. As for upscaling a DVD I am always a bit at a loss....since almost every NEW HDTV UPscales to its native 1080p...so in what way does an Oppo upscaler add or subtract from the processing that the TV itself always performs.

It would seem that upscaling should be less and less of a concern for video...no?

As for me, I have a PS3 and I find none of the problems mentioned above about Onkyo AVRs and PCM Blu-ray processing...this is 'news' to me?

What models are you all referring to?

cnh
cnh

cheddar

cnh wrote: »

An interesting discussion. As for upscaling a DVD I am always a bit at a loss....since almost every NEW HDTV UPscales to its native 1080p...so in what way does an Oppo upscaler add or subtract from the processing that the TV itself always performs.

It would seem that upscaling should be less and less of a concern for video...no?

Taking 480p worth of information and expanding it to 1080p is a guessing game. You are taking a source that specifies 720x480 little colored dots and expanding it to fill up to 1920x1080 little colored dots. Each upscaler has to do this without making it look jaggy and fuzzy where it fills in the information that isn't there in the source. Some upscaler chips handle this better than others. And the chips in hdtvs are usually pretty poor as the best chips add significant expense to the product. I have found that even the best hdtvs, like the 60" kuro elites, look noticeably fuzzy to me (even with 1080p sources) on any mode except the pixel by pixel one. The slight difference in overscan of the other modes means the tv's internal scaler is engaged and messes up the picture just a little.

cnh wrote: »

As for me, I have a PS3 and I find none of the problems mentioned above about Onkyo AVRs and PCM Blu-ray processing...this is 'news' to me?

I think one of the biggest concerns with PCM processing comes from AVRs that don't handle the 10db LFE boost properly. There isn't enough bandwidth over connections from the player to the avr to handle the LFE channel at full volume. So it has been intentionally put on disks -10db on DVDs and this continues with blu-rays. When an AVR decodes a bitstream source, it knows the original format is TrueHD, DTS-HD MA, etc. So it 'knows' to add the 10db boost to get the LFE back up to full volume. However, the PCM the AVR receives could come from an SACD, home theater track, etc. And the AVR doesn't 'know' whether to add the 10db boost or not. For those that don't add it with default settings, users have to manually tweak their AVR settings to add it in.

An easy way to test if your equipment suffers from this problem is to bitstream lossy DD or DTS tracks and compare them to PCM lossless from a blu-ray player on the same title. You should notice that the PCM lossless is audibly thinner and lacking in punch compared to the vanilla DD or DTS tracks, if there is a problem. PCM lossless should have deeper and more dynamic bass and, if you're experiencing the opposite, it's probably due to the PCM not being processed properly by the AVR.

The DTS-HD MA 'bomb' is a loud pop (so loud that users worry it damaged their speakers) that occurs with some AVRs bitstreaming a few blu-ray titles. However, IIRC, blu-ray authoring changes and firmware updates can fix the problem.

cheddar

Just wanted to add that the DTS-HD MA 'bomb' is not a problem with most ps3s because it only happens when the affected AVRs bitstream DTS-HD MA. Not when the ps3 does the decoding and sends out PCM. But because of the authoring changes and firmware updates, I don't think this is so much of an issue anymore unless you have a problem AVR with older firmware.

vc69

On the video side, scaling and de-interlacing is the hard part and so many TV's, receivers and players do it poorly . It's a matter of processing and there are really only two (ABT and REON) processors that do an exceptional job of those tasks. At least that is the current SOTA. Perhaps good processors will get cheaper, and I hope they do. But for now, they aren't. Many manufacturers, have their own proprietary scaler/deinterlacer processors but they fall short. Sony is the first that comes to mind as having a good, but not great, processor. Toshiba had a good one a couple years ago, but it's long gone and has been superseded by the current SOTA.

On the audio side with regard to PCM vs bitsreaming, there is one issue I have not seen discussed in this thread and I am not well qualified to explain it. It is a jitter issue with HDMI. If I am not mistaken, and please feel free to correct me, PCM is not re-clocked it is just D/A converted. A bitstream is re-clocked, decoded and then D/A'd thereby reducing jitter.