Dolby vs DTS vs PCM-LPCM?

cheddar

I don't need to search the forum for your posts, you have a lot of train wreck threads on this site. None of which I posted on for 8 pages. I also could care less if you stay on this site or not. Like I said before. Carry on.

The I love puppies thread was great, though, pure entertainment gold...

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81389

cheddar

vc69 wrote: »

LoL... why don't you two get a room? It's obvious you are destined to be together. I know love when I see it.

Nah, but when his threads go wrong, they're a hoot to read when he gets unhinged...

kuntasensei

digitalvideo wrote: »

kuntasensei my question now is if "lossless is lossless" then why do the studios label the audio differently in different format names if they're all the same sound? I notice that Sony's releases on Bluray are released in a uncompressed PCM 5.1 sound, while many of the other studios released their blurays using Dolby TrueHD or DTS MA.

I think I remember seeing a video on YouTube of someome showing the difference in sound between the Dolby and DTS on the 'War Of The World's' disc by switching between the two formats. The DTS sounded louder and more aggressive.

It's the same as the difference between .RAR and .ZIP files when it comes to compression on the PC. Both do essentially the same thing - they just do it in different ways that make the end result take less space than the original file. TrueHD and DTS-MA can produce the same audio as uncompressed PCM 5.1, but possibly at 1/10th of the file size to do so, meaning there is more space for other material on the disc. Slapping the label for each on the box is just for marketing purposes.

As for Dolby vs. DTS on DVD, there are often different mixes used for the two, plus since those are not lossless and depend on different methods of perceptual encoding, there are audible differences between them. Also, Dolby Digital uses a dialnorm control to alter master volume, whereas DTS does not, so you often have to level match the two to make a fair comparison.

cheddar

There are also different mixes of lossless on blu-ray sometimes. A disk will have two or more lossless formats with a different sampling rate/bitrate of the underlying master. I've also heard some international blu-rays where the language tracks (non-dialog parts) will sound different even if they are the same lossless format.

But you are right, though. That if produced from the same uncompressed master, the compressed formats should sound the same once unzipped.

vc69

kuntasensei wrote: »

As for Dolby vs. DTS on DVD, there are often different mixes used for the two, plus since those are not lossless and depend on different methods of perceptual encoding, there are audible differences between them.

Agreed.

I realize there are different mixes done according to the format (5.1, 6.1, 7.1) but I was not aware they do separate mixes according to the codec being used.

kuntasensei wrote: »

Also, Dolby Digital uses a dialnorm control to alter master volume, whereas DTS does not, so you often have to level match the two to make a fair comparison.

DialNorm (dialog normalization) is not usually used in anything other than TV broadcast/cable scenarios IIRC. It is an encoder option, but the studios don't employ it that I know of. Do you have any further info on this? I know a couple broadcast engineers that would like to know.

cheddar

vc69 wrote: »

I realize there are different mixes done according to the format (5.1, 6.1, 7.1) but I was not aware they do separate mixes according to the codec being used.

I don't believe there are any technical reasons why the mix needs to be different. But DTS is often used for special editions, etc. So it benefits from the new masters they make.

kuntasensei

vc69 wrote: »

I realize there are different mixes done according to the format (5.1, 6.1, 7.1) but I was not aware they do separate mixes according to the codec being used.

The most famous case of this is Saving Private Ryan. The DTS version uses a totally different mix from the DD. This was typically only done when DTS was trying to show off their codec, but there are more than a few cases of DTS using different mixes, making it difficult to do a straight apples-to-apples comparison.

vc69 wrote: »

DialNorm (dialog normalization) is not usually used in anything other than TV broadcast/cable scenarios IIRC. It is an encoder option, but the studios don't employ it that I know of. Do you have any further info on this? I know a couple broadcast engineers that would like to know.

Dialnorm is still used on pretty much every DVD I've come across, though the vast majority use the default value that alters the master volume by 4dB. I believe that many TrueHD tracks do this as well, but it's really not an issue unless you're trying to set your volume to a certain level (because 0 will not necessarily equal reference anymore).

cheddar

Do you know how much licensing TrueHD or DTS-HD MA adds to the cost of blu-rays? Seems like with the extra space on the disk, many titles could just use the uncompressed PCM and we wouldn't even have to worry about upgrading for bitstreaming, etc. And a lot of the early titles from Disney and Sony did just that. But it does seem they're pushing the Dolby and/or DTS formats on the newer ones.

Erik Tracy

cheddar wrote: »

Do you know how much licensing TrueHD or DTS-HD MA adds to the cost of blu-rays? Seems like with the extra space on the disk, many titles could just use the uncompressed PCM and we wouldn't even have to worry about upgrading for bitstreaming, etc. And a lot of the early titles from Disney and Sony did just that. But it does seem they're pushing the Dolby and/or DTS formats on the newer ones.

Yup - Pirates of the Carribean, Curse of the Black Pearl is ranked way up on the PQ Tier over on AVS and its soundtrack is uncompressed PCM.

Give it to me straight off the source disk as PCM - I can live w/o a fancy little light being on to ooohh and ahhh over.

cheddar

The pirates movies also have top tier rated sound tracks too. Great demo material all around.

kuntasensei

I hear ya' on the PCM... but honestly, the one disc I have that has both TrueHD and Uncompressed PCM (Ghost Rider) sounds exactly the same to me either way. As long as the end result is consistently excellent, I could care less what container they put it in. It's like having water in a glass and water in a plastic cup... It's the same damn water either way, but you'll always find people who just prefer to drink from a glass.

BlueFox

digitalvideo wrote: »

CGi is an intellectually lazy way to make a movie and is fine for teenagers who want to see silly things like comic book characters bounce from one skyscrapper to the next with fake explosions, I prefer more real action like Mad Max The Road Warrior which uses real stunt men and real stunts and real cars and real explosions, but there is nothing intellectual for thinking people as arrogant as that sounds with CGi.

Mad Max and The Road Warrior are intellectual? :rolleyes:

Bernal

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-13817_7-6462511-4.html

cheddar

The specs they give are the maximums for each format. Too bad most blu-rays are mastered much lower than those posted numbers. While it may be hard to hear the difference between the formats at their highest specs, the difference between a 24-bit/192Khz LPCM track and what most blu-rays are mastered at could be appreciated by audiophiles. IIRC, there are only a few, rare, music only blu-rays that push the envelope...

reeltrouble1

I pretty much just watch the movie and enjoy whatever theater sound processing there is, I do enjoy the Polk 7.2 system I use along with the gear to hear and see the movies in the RTT......although, a great Home Theater cannot do to much for a stinker movie, well, since its a family thing at least we got together and watched a movie and ate some popcorn.......

RT1

polktiger

Put me in the camp of wanting less CGi and blue/green screening. Some, when done well, really helps a movie. (Thinking T2, when liquid terminator pushes through the bars or Golum in Lord of the Rings). I think I tolerated about 20 minutes of 300, and more movies seem to be going that way. Crappy script, a director that watched Matrix too many times and thinks everyone needs to move like Neo, and the whole damn movie obviously being shot in front of a green screen. I think the reason why Clint Eastwood movies do so well now is becuase the actually have a real script and they are shooting a real movie (for the most part).

kuntasensei

In fairness, 300 perfectly captured the art style of the graphic novel, which I don't think anyone could have done without CGI any more than they could've done Sin City. It achieved what it was meant to achieve, and brilliantly so. Let's be honest... had it not been for the green screen, the budget for that movie would've kept it from ever being made.

Not that I'm not saying you're right... but there's a place in cinema for both types of movies.

BlueFox

There is nothing wrong with CGI, nor is there anything wrong with real actors, sets, etc. The movie is the important part. A good movie transcends the method used to make it. Has no one ever watched an animated movie? Real actors are not needed to make a good movie. Conversly, all the best actors in the world, on location at real locations, will not turn a crummy movie into a good movie.

digitalvideo

Walter Murch who was the sound designer and mixer for Apocalypse Now and also does film editing talked about this, his career achievements are pretty amazing and what he helped bring to the audio sector of the film industry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Murch

digitalvideo

Can dvds be listened to uncompressed like bluray? Many blurays come with LPCM 5.1 (48kHz, 16-bit) audio like we talked about above, do dvds have that as well? I still watch dvds, and when I go in the Options menu for Sound on the dvd I can choose between Dolby or DTS but I never seen it give an option for "PCM" or "LPCM".


Also, I have the Oppo bluray player. I contacted Oppo about where I should have the settings at for HDMI wiring and they said it's best if you set the player to "Bitstream". Does that effect the type of sound I will be getting from the bluray disc?

digitalvideo

digitalvideo wrote: »

Also, I have the Oppo bluray player. I contacted Oppo about where I should have the settings at for HDMI wiring and they said it's best if you set the player to "Bitstream". Does that effect the type of sound I will be getting from the bluray disc?

I ask because I have always had my Oppo and Pioneer reciever set to 'Bitstream' after Oppo told me to set it there. Am I getting uncompressed PCM sound from the bluray disc set to bitstream?

I got a 7.1 surround Polk speaker setup with a centrually configured system through the reciever with HDMI wiring.

Pioneer elite kuro plasma
pioneer elite sc05 reciever
oppo bdp 83

kuntasensei

digitalvideo wrote: »

Can dvds be listened to uncompressed like bluray? Many blurays come with LPCM 5.1 (48kHz, 16-bit) audio like we talked about above, do dvds have that as well? I still watch dvds, and when I go in the Options menu for Sound on the dvd I can choose between Dolby or DTS but I never seen it give an option for "PCM" or "LPCM".


Also, I have the Oppo bluray player. I contacted Oppo about where I should have the settings at for HDMI wiring and they said it's best if you set the player to "Bitstream". Does that effect the type of sound I will be getting from the bluray disc?

DVD doesn't have the space to deliver 5.1 uncompressed PCM. That's why you have lossy codecs like DD and DTS for DVD - to conserve space.

It doesn't really matter if you bitstream or use PCM in the Oppo. All that changes is where in the chain the conversion to PCM occurs with TrueHD and DTS-MA tracks. If you bitstream, your AVR decodes it. If you let the Oppo decode (i.e. set it to PCM), it decodes and sends the PCM to the AVR. The end result is the same. Most would say that if your AVR can do the decoding, it's better to use Bitstream because of potential jitter issues with PCM (whereas TrueHD and DTS-MA have error correction to ensure they arrive unaltered across HDMI).

kuntasensei

digitalvideo wrote: »

I ask because I have always had my Oppo and Pioneer reciever set to 'Bitstream' after Oppo told me to set it there. Am I getting uncompressed PCM sound from the bluray disc set to bitstream?

If the disc has uncompressed PCM, your Oppo is sending PCM to the AVR no matter whether you have your Oppo set to bitstream or PCM. Bitstream applies only to Dolby and DTS material.

digitalvideo

kuntasensei wrote: »

If the disc has uncompressed PCM, your Oppo is sending PCM to the AVR no matter whether you have your Oppo set to bitstream or PCM. Bitstream applies only to Dolby and DTS material.

What if the Bluray disc has this listed in it's audio:

Audio:

English: LPCM 5.1 (48kHz, 16-bit)
English: Dolby Digital 5.1
French: Dolby Digital 5.1
Spanish: Dolby Digital 5.1

?

That's the audio feature on the 'Reign Of Fire' and 'Pirates Of The Caribbean' bluray discs. Will the bluray player and reciever always play automatically whatever the first top listed audio format is regardless of where the bluray player and reciever is set at?

BlueFox

There is no standard as to what the default audio format is. You always need to go into setup and select the format you want. If you are lucky the default is what you want so all you need to do is exit.

bigaudiofanatic

Well considering I will be snowed in on Saturday I will read this entire thread than. Looks to have some good stuff in it.

polktiger

kuntasensei wrote: »

In fairness, 300 perfectly captured the art style of the graphic novel, which I don't think anyone could have done without CGI any more than they could've done Sin City.

Had no idea 300 was based on a novel. Based on the trailers, I thought it was supposed to be semi accurate historical depiction of the Battle of Thermopylae. Thinking more like Band of Brothers.

Movies like Sin City just have no appeal to me. Sort of like slasher films they just don't interest me at all. I know many people like that stuff, and it is fine.