Entry level tubes

keith allen
keith allen Posts: 734
edited December 2009 in 2 Channel Audio
If a feller like myself was thinking about getting into tube gear,but was on a budget,and was going to buy second hand,what would be considered the best bang for the buck.I listen to a little bit of everything,but my most listened to is accoustic,like Shawn Mullins,and anything like the Allman brothers,thats what I dig the most.Just some thoughts from the bottleheads
Post edited by keith allen on
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited December 2009
    What's your budget and are you looking for a pre-amp or power amp?

    Here;s a great pre-amp with extra tubes to roll included and that Brimar rectifier is superb.

    http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1265682505&/Dared-SL2000A-with-extra-NOS-t

    I have been very, very impressed with mine. Acoustic music will sound wonderful

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • keith allen
    keith allen Posts: 734
    edited December 2009
    Im going to be looking for a pre and a power amp,or just intergrated,lets say as far as budget...$1500 will probably be it.I not serious yet,I'll start ing lookig hard around start of spring,thats when the money trees start blooming..lol
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  • keith allen
    keith allen Posts: 734
    edited December 2009
    heiney9 wrote: »
    What's your budget and are you looking for a pre-amp or power amp?

    Here;s a great pre-amp with extra tubes to roll included and that Brimar rectifier is superb.

    http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1265682505&/Dared-SL2000A-with-extra-NOS-t

    I have been very, very impressed with mine. Acoustic music will sound wonderful

    H9


    I could pick that up now,how ya think it would pair with a carver ss amp?
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited December 2009
    Have you considered the Manley Stingray?
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited December 2009
    keith allen wrote: »
    I could pick that up now,how ya think it would pair with a carver ss amp?

    I think it would be great, but your budget is a little higher and perhaps you want to look into an integrated.

    As George suggest a Manley Stingray would be very nice.

    At $1500 you will have a lot of choices either for a nice pre to go with your Carvers or a nice mid-level integrated.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited December 2009
    From what I've read so far, you should stick with SS.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • markmarc
    markmarc Posts: 2,309
    edited December 2009
    What kind of speakers will you be driving? You may also want to look at hybrid integrated amp (pre tube, SS amp sections) Jolida makes a model w/ or without a remote that you can find used for $600.

    All tube on a budget the Vista Audio i34 is scary good at $980 new.
    Review Site_ (((AudioPursuit)))
    Founder/Publisher Affordable$$Audio 2006-13.
    Former Staff Member TONEAudio
    2 Ch. System
    Amplifiers: Parasound Halo P6 pre, Vista Audio i34, Peachtree amp500, Adcom GFP-565 GFA-535ii, 545ii, 555ii
    Digital: SimAudio HAD230 DAC, iMac 20in/Amarra,
    Speakers: Paradigm Performa F75, Magnepan .7, Totem Model 1's, ACI Emerald XL, Celestion Si Stands. Totem Dreamcatcher sub
    Analog: Technics SL-J2 w/Pickering 3000D, SimAudio LP5.3 phono pre
    Cable/Wires: Cardas, AudioArt, Shunyata Venom 3
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  • keith allen
    keith allen Posts: 734
    edited December 2009
    dorokusai wrote: »
    From what I've read so far, you should stick with SS.

    Why so?
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  • keith allen
    keith allen Posts: 734
    edited December 2009
    markmarc wrote: »
    What kind of speakers will you be driving? You may also want to look at hybrid integrated amp (pre tube, SS amp sections) Jolida makes a model w/ or without a remote that you can find used for $600.

    All tube on a budget the Vista Audio i34 is scary good at $980 new.

    sda1a's,and lsi9's,and I have looked at that jolida over the years
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  • keith allen
    keith allen Posts: 734
    edited December 2009
    george daniel wrote: »
    Have you considered the Manley Stingray?

    No,but I will,Ive heard of it but never pay it any attention
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited December 2009
    keith allen wrote: »
    Why so?

    Because he doesn't like any of the recommendations. Ignore him unless he gives you some alternatives. It's Mark being Mark ;)

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • keith allen
    keith allen Posts: 734
    edited December 2009
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Because he doesn't like any of the recommendations. Ignore him unless he gives you some alternatives. It's Mark being Mark ;)

    H9

    I see,audiosnob,I mean phile:p
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  • markmarc
    markmarc Posts: 2,309
    edited December 2009
    Keith:
    Since you have the LSi9's, you'll want to find a beefy tube amp which will cost $$. The Manley gear is excellent stuff for the buck and will have the power. Do yourself one favor and plan on $500 or so and upgrade the LSi9 x-overs. You'll be very impressed at the improvement
    Review Site_ (((AudioPursuit)))
    Founder/Publisher Affordable$$Audio 2006-13.
    Former Staff Member TONEAudio
    2 Ch. System
    Amplifiers: Parasound Halo P6 pre, Vista Audio i34, Peachtree amp500, Adcom GFP-565 GFA-535ii, 545ii, 555ii
    Digital: SimAudio HAD230 DAC, iMac 20in/Amarra,
    Speakers: Paradigm Performa F75, Magnepan .7, Totem Model 1's, ACI Emerald XL, Celestion Si Stands. Totem Dreamcatcher sub
    Analog: Technics SL-J2 w/Pickering 3000D, SimAudio LP5.3 phono pre
    Cable/Wires: Cardas, AudioArt, Shunyata Venom 3
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited December 2009
    I think the Manley recommendation is way off base beings he's never used tubes before and Dared just sucks.

    He also stated he wasn't really serious, probably a budget of X, thinking about it, not sure....good luck. I suggested he stick with what he knows and enjoys already.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited December 2009
    When did you hear a Dared with Auricaps and proper tubes? It's not at the level of say BAT or the higher end Rogue's or CJ or ARC, etc.............but without the Chinese crap tubes it's actually pretty impressive and 1000 times better sounding then I thought it was going to be.

    But since he's now stated his budget........I agree maybe I under recommended to him. I have Dougs modified Rogue 66 he bought from Russ with Gary Dodd mods to demo to see just exactly where the Dared fits.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited December 2009
    If you are running SDA's and LSi's I'd stick with SS power amp and look for a nice tubed pre-amp and use some of your budget for tube rolling.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited December 2009
    Maybe I have heard one, maybe I haven't....who cares? I know enough about Dared to make an educated comment. Of course its no BAT or Cary. Meh, suggest what you want, good luck.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • keith allen
    keith allen Posts: 734
    edited December 2009
    Hey,thanx for all the suggestion and thoughts,no need to start a civil war here.I have a high end audio shop fairly close and they have lots of good used geat too,and they dont mind ya trying it out.I just recently added a adcom gfp565 preamp to my main system and man was it an improvement.So I moved the new pre to my livingroom system,littl less budget rig,but uses the same amp,I really liked it.So think I'll move it there permantley,and was thinking about just swapping to tubes finally.But maybe I'll look at just improving the pre to tubes,that was suggested when I was looking for my last preamp.Thanx again folks
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  • vc69
    vc69 Posts: 2,500
    edited December 2009
    Keith, I don't have much experience with tube stuff either. Having said that, VTL and ARC (Audio Research) has some excellent entry level tube preamps that you can get used within your price range. I have found my VTL pre to be very consistent and easy to use. I haven't even rolled any tubes and it is a significant step up and away from any SS pre I have tried. Don't give up the fight!
    -Kevin
    HT: Philips 52PFL7432D 52" LCD 1080p / Onkyo TX-SR 606 / Oppo BDP-83 SE / Comcast cable. (all HDMI)B&W 801 - Front, Polk CS350 LS - Center, Polk LS90 - Rear
    2 Channel:
    Oppo BDP-83 SE
    Squeezebox Touch
    Muscial Fidelity M1 DAC
    VTL 2.5
    McIntosh 2205 (refurbed)
    B&W 801's
    Transparent IC's
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited December 2009
    The 565 isn;t even a great pre-amp, so if you heard an improvement using that then you are in for a HUGE treat. I'd take the Dared every day of the week and twice on Sunday over any Adcom pre with the exception of the GFP-750.

    Not dissing your pre-amp selection but it's a very mediocre pre as far as pre's go. In that case jump on the Dared because with the Telefunken and Brimar tubes it will smoke what you have. Not even a contest for a one eared person.

    I have 2 NOS 1940's 5Z4G Brimar Military rectifiers like the one FS with the Dared I linked to and it's an excellent choice it slightly edges out the 1950's RCA 5V4G black plates I have. I have a pair of Telefunken ECC801S which is the uber premium version of the Telefunken 12AT7 and they last forever and sound superb.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Malaka
    Malaka Posts: 39
    edited December 2009
    'Budget' preamps like the Dared or Little Dots do NOT suck! They are 'giant killers', especially with good NOS tubes, and sound superb with good source and speakers. Sure they are no VTL, Cary, or BAT, but for their price points, they are a veritable STEAL and great deal for budget conscious audiophiles.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited December 2009
    Malaka wrote: »
    'Budget' preamps like the Dared or Little Dots do NOT suck! They are 'giant killers', especially with good NOS tubes, and sound superb with good source and speakers. Sure they are no VTL, Cary, or BAT, but for their price points, they are a veritable STEAL and great deal for budget conscious audiophiles.

    Not so sure they are 'giant killers' but they sound a whole lot better than they should, and what the normal audiophile who assumes they're crap, when they clearly are not.

    I've had all 3 of my Dared units open and I've seen American made gear that doesn't look this good as far as parts used, PC board quality and quality solder joints and short signal paths.

    Yes, they do cut some corners with the IEC plug and the input/output connectors compared to uber expensive stuff but that stuff is easily replaced and tweaked if one wants to go there. The input/output connectors are just as good as any receiver sold today.

    FWIW

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • headrott
    headrott Posts: 5,496
    edited December 2009
    I can recommend this pre-amp. It's extremely good, especially for the price. If you can find one used, it'll be around $350 and I think you'll be impressed. I can also recommend their hybrid tube amp also. (see link below for the pre-amp)

    http://www.amchome.com/content/amc-cvt1030-series
    Relayer-Big-O-Poster.jpg
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion." :\
    My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

    "Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited December 2009
    headrott wrote: »
    I can recommend this pre-amp. It's extremely good, especially for the price. If you can find one used, it'll be around $350 and I think you'll be impressed. I can also recommend their hybrid tube amp also. (see link below for the pre-amp)

    http://www.amchome.com/content/amc-cvt1030-series

    The only caution I have for some AMC tube gear is that many times the tubes are soldered into the board (no sockets) and it's a real PITA to roll tubes. Not all AMC tube gear is like this, but if the OP considers AMC gear just be susre and ask that question. I know this because at one point I was looking at some AMC tube gear.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited December 2009
    anyone have any first and experience with this ? I've read about it but have never seen/heard one.

    http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1264449819&/Audio-Mirror-T-61-Tube-Preamp-
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited December 2009
    george daniel wrote: »
    anyone have any first and experience with this ? I've read about it but have never seen/heard one.

    http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1264449819&/Audio-Mirror-T-61-Tube-Preamp-

    No experience with it, but it looks well done and the Auricaps are extremely nice. All my Dared pieces have Auricaps and personally I think it's one of the reasons they sound so damn good.

    I'm not a fan of the tube guards like that, but that's just me.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited December 2009
    Only thing is I'm not sure what is avail for the 6X4 driver tube. Do you know? Is it one of those oddball tubes some Russian/Chinese designers use? Or a legit popular tube?
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • headrott
    headrott Posts: 5,496
    edited December 2009
    heiney9 wrote: »
    The only caution I have for some AMC tube gear is that many times the tubes are soldered into the board (no sockets) and it's a real PITA to roll tubes. Not all AMC tube gear is like this, but if the OP considers AMC gear just be susre and ask that question. I know this because at one point I was looking at some AMC tube gear.

    H9

    Good point H9. I didn't mention that about the pre-amp. The older models didn't have tube sockets. I believe it was the CVT-1030 (without the s added on) The "s" is for socket. Thanks for the add on H9.
    Relayer-Big-O-Poster.jpg
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion." :\
    My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

    "Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited December 2009
    You know H9,, you may be on to something,, I have auricaps in my Belles 20a,,Jerry has them in his 21a,,, the 6x4 tubes are quite common,and relatively inexpensive,,IIRC I have a GEC NOS in my mini and I paid 20 bucks IIRC--and the Melos SHA1 mod used the auricaps as well.:)
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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