Question and comments on 2 channel listening and classical music

Pycroft

Hello all -

I have a question and comments I would love to hear opinions on - especially from classical music gurus. I have a 2 channel setup that I'm LOVING. I've been delving into my classical music repertoire, and am not as wowed as I was with others. My Dave Matthews Band/Billy Joel/Beatles/The Wife's Country Music/Metallica selections have all blown my mind. I've listened to two of my favorite recordings of classical music - Dvorak's 9th and Beethoven's 9th (If it matters, Dvorak conducted by Lenny Bernstein and NYPhilharmonic, and the Beethoven Conducted by Zubin Mehta). When I listen to them, I am not blown away. The system still sounds great, but I feel like the recording is lacking. Is it possible that my not as good, digitized listening before this hid mistakes? Perhaps my speakers are too small to image a huge orchestra? (Setup below). Or perhaps (My feeling) the actual recording and production of classical CD's is difficult - with 60-80 live musicians playing, and you're simply not going to get the true exact feel of being there live (Or close). I've been a part of a great recording that won a Grammy, and I've heard similar recordings and can hear a difference. Curious if anyone has comments on this. Here's my 2 channel setup:

Monitor 7C's
Technics SU 90-70 prepamp
B&K ST-140 amp
Denon DCM 340 CD Player

Note - everything but the speakers provided by my man George Grand (STILL LOVING IT GEORGE).

Thanks,

James

George Grand

It might be that you'll eventually need a larger pair of speakers, with that whole large orchestra presentation thing. But my money is on you hearing live, un-amplified music almost every day when you go to work, and being a lot harder to fool in that area.

Perhaps you want to try out the large, Pinnacle towers I picked up today. Just kidding.

Pycroft

The thing is with classical music, you can buy 13 different versions of the same symphony...sometimes 2-3 different versions with the same conductor...and they all just sound so different. Does the production really play that big fo a part? The true details of what I'm hearing are this: I feel like the brass isn't as bright as it should be. I feel the low strings don't come through as much as they should, and that when a solo section is featured, the other instruments are not as present as they should be. I've heard other CD's where the brights are plenty bright, and the lows are plenty low. Is it the actual CD that is the problem?

And George...PM about to be sent about perhaps meeting up tomorrow!

Maybe I should plan on SOMEDAY (Not too soon) moving the RTA 11TL's to the 2 channel system?

James

kp1706

Pycroft wrote: »

The thing is with classical music, you can buy 13 different versions of the same symphony...sometimes 2-3 different versions with the same conductor...and they all just sound so different. Does the production really play that big fo a part? The true details of what I'm hearing are this: I feel like the brass isn't as bright as it should be. I feel the low strings don't come through as much as they should, and that when a solo section is featured, the other instruments are not as present as they should be. I've heard other CD's where the brights are plenty bright, and the lows are plenty low. Is it the actual CD that is the problem?

And George...PM about to be sent about perhaps meeting up tomorrow!

Maybe I should plan on SOMEDAY (Not too soon) moving the RTA 11TL's to the 2 channel system?

James

I have noticed your issue with Classical Music in my own collection. Some of my Classical CD's made from performances in the 60's and 70's sound weak. I have listened to an early recording of Karajan conducting of Beethoven's 9th vs a recent recording by the Minnesota Orchestra and the Minnesota recording is much better IMHO. Maybe its just a function of the quality of the recording when the transfer to CD was made.

vc69

I am certainly no authority on classical music, but I have a couple of ideas for you to toss around and chew on.

The stuff you say sounds good to you is recorded in a studio. Close mic'ed, isolated, and overdubbed, mixed down, remixed, mastered... you get the point.

Classical performances are infinitely harder to capture. Close mic'ing is not practical or even desirable. The room/auditorium/studio/soundstage that the performance is recorded in plays a big part. Mic selection, placement technique, not to mention the technical prowess of the engineers involved all have a part to play as with any recording, but multiply that 10 fold with an orchestra.

In short, capturing the intricacies and dynamics of an orchestral performance is difficult at best. Reproducing them is also difficult. In my experience, the guys that listen to classical tune their rig accordingly. Most prefer vinyl and the RCA Victor red label stuff is supposedly amazing. Again, no real first hand experience.

Classical music audiophiles have particular and very sought out recordings that they cherish because, somehow, it captures the magic of the live performance. I can't really point you in the direction of any of those as I am a rocker, but they exist and the classical heads can point them out.


BTW... I work for a classical music radio station and I will be happy to ask our music director for some suggested listening. She really knows her stuff.

edit: I realize you know your music, but she knows her way around a huge catalog of recordings.

zarrdoss

kp1706 wrote: »

I have noticed your issue with Classical Music in my own collection. Some of my Classical CD's made from performances in the 60's and 70's sound weak. I have listened to an early recording of Karajan conducting of Beethoven's 9th vs a recent recording by the Minnesota Orchestra and the Minnesota recording is much better IMHO. Maybe its just a function of the quality of the recording when the transfer to CD was made.

exactly, the newer version of Carmina Burana performed by the Atlantic city orchestra sounds much better than the older Carl Orff version. The best sounding Classical I have is the Conan the barbarian soundtrack by Basil Poledouris.

mmadden28

Pycroft, I might have a few CDs you could try out. Not sure if they are Wow factor material or not, but you're welcome to try them out. Does that CD player also play SACD? I have at least one SACD where particular attention was paid to the mic placement.

Or maybe perhaps you can give your stuff a listen on George's rig, or perhaps give them a try on my rig (I have quite the selection of Vintage Polks to try out).

George I was just about to PM you on a possible meet tomorrow as well to pick up the Vinyl you have on hold for me, maybe I can stop by around the same time - I just don't know what my schedule is like tomorrow yet (The wife has list of T-Day dinner cleaning chores waiting for me), but I think I might be able to get away for a bit.

Pycroft

Madden -

I'm shooting for being there a little after 1:00 pm, but haven't heard back from George yet whether he was available then.

I know, because I've been a part of the recording process, that mic placement, and mixing is super important. For you classical guru's, is there a specific label (Similar to how someone said RCA is known for LP's) to produce the highest quality recordings. Some of the recordings you folks listed I have never heard of. I like to stick with the big wigs of the symphonic world - Berlin, NY, Philadelphia, etc. I also like certain conductors, and I am finding the older the conductor, the worse actual recording most of the time. I listened to a Toscanini yesterday that had crackle in it like an LP.

James

comfortablycurt

For whatever it's worth...I've never been impressed by classical music on my 7A's. I don't think they're really best suited for classical. They're great for classic rock though.

I don't listen to much classical in general, but the little bit that I do listen to sounds much better on my 2A's...and even my RTi8's do a better job than the 7A's IMO.

In my experience, the 7's have a a very realistic, but very focused soundstage. Have you tried playing with different amounts of toe-in/out? I've found the 7's to be very critical as far as proper toe-in goes. If you toe them in a lot they can present a very focused, detailed center image, at the expense of detail at the outer edges of the soundstage.

If they're toed in just a little though, they can present a reasonably wide soundstage. Nothing like what an SDA would give you obviously. This is at the expense of less detail in the center though. With less toe in, there will be a lot more air in the soundstage, and they work a little better for classical music.

Pycroft

By toe in, do you mean that I should try them with the speakers facing directly forward instead of angling in to the listener? At first I thought toe in was some step dancing move. If that's what you mean, I can give that a try later today.

Thanks.

cnh

Just the opposite..toe-in is having them turned in away from the 180 degree straight line so that they form a triangle with the listener at the other end. Too much and they will cross each other and dissipate before the reach the listening position...

Too little and they will intersect behind the listener....you get the idea...for example SDAs should never have any toe-in...

I have also thought that for the CD classical is the most difficult challenge in reproduction for many of the same reasons above....a friend of mine just plain REFUSES to listen to any classical on a CD!

SACD may be another matter....haven't heard any classical in this format!

cnh

bikezappa

Pycroft

If you have a good tuner/antenna, a good NPR FM broadcast station of a live classical performance then you maybe amazed at the sound. The live BSO broadcasts of WGBH in Boston are fantastic. You can try listening to the live FM broadcasts of the MET also to get more data. And the best would be to go to a live performance of classical music for the best comparison. This will tell you what you are missing.

Peter

George Grand

I'll be here at 1:00 if you guys are coming by.

mhardy6647

Some of the best recorded classical music (FWIW I try to call it "serious" music, since "classical" was one particular style of "serious" music and there are many others -- baroque, Romantic, etc.) was done in the early 1950s with minimal mic'ing and typically to three-channel tape. The RCA "Living Stereo" and Mercury "Living Presence" recordings are justly famous. Try some :-)

Some of the performances were "for the ages", too... e.g., Reiner/CSO's Also Sprach Zarathustra in 1954.

Ern Dog

I love big and powerful classical music performances. In my opinion, this genre of music is one of the hardest to sound like a live performance.

You need to start out with an excellently mastered cd- too many to list here.

If you got that, then play around with the speaker placement to dial in the best performance from your current speakers.

If it still doesn't do it for you, then you may need to move up the audio food chain and invest in upgrades.

jm1

The ambient queues which give a sense of life to classic (or acoustic) music are located in the lower octaves. I don’t think your speakers are capable of reproducing the ambient queues which you are so accustomed to. Have you considered adding a subwoofer of moving to larger speakers to provide a more full range sound?

Jstas

I gotta agree with George about the big speakers thing.

Real orchestras have impact as well as tonal qualities that are hard to duplicate. Big speakers provide the impact and prescence that small speakers lack.

I'm sure you have heard The Truth and the AR9's by now and that sound is hard to get from small speakers.

I have a pair of Amazings as well and they are being driven by Silver 7t's. That rig doesn't get crazy loud but it does have the impact that brrings a presence to the music.

The other rig I have that is capable of that kind of sound is my SDA rig. They are only 2B's but with some stout power behind them, they will give you that same impact. The bookshelf speakers I have just don't have that same gumption that large displacement speakers have in the ability to pressurize a room properly. For near field listening they are great. But filling a room is difficult.

John30_30

vc69 wrote: »

I am certainly no authority on classical music, but I have a couple of ideas for you to toss around and chew on.

The stuff you say sounds good to you is recorded in a studio. Close mic'ed, isolated, and overdubbed, mixed down, remixed, mastered... you get the point.

Classical performances are infinitely harder to capture. Close mic'ing is not practical or even desirable. The room/auditorium/studio/soundstage that the performance is recorded in plays a big part. Mic selection, placement technique, not to mention the technical prowess of the engineers involved all have a part to play as with any recording, but multiply that 10 fold with an orchestra.

In short, capturing the intricacies and dynamics of an orchestral performance is difficult at best. Reproducing them is also difficult. In my experience, the guys that listen to classical tune their rig accordingly. Most prefer vinyl and the RCA Victor red label stuff is supposedly amazing. Again, no real first hand experience.

Classical music audiophiles have particular and very sought out recordings that they cherish because, somehow, it captures the magic of the live performance. I can't really point you in the direction of any of those as I am a rocker, but they exist and the classical heads can point them out.

This is pretty much on point, although personally I was raised on classical vinyl and just don't miss it.
I'd mostly agree with Jstas about big speakers being better able to convey big orchestral groups well, although there's plenty of music up to and beyond the quartet level that efficient 2-way bookshelf speakers should be able to handle.
I think there's alot of truth in what kp1706 mentions about sophistication of recording techniques having way improved.
Also, sometimes, like movies, some versions are just crap, even if great performers are involved. The dynamic of all acoustic instruments between players is pretty obvious, the intent and ability of the conductor (when involved), so there's so many different ways for a recording to fail.

I'm listening to a very well-done version of Beethoven's Sextet, Duet, & Quintet by L'Archibudelli. In the Sextet, the 1st piece, and the French horn is too close to the mic or something, and it's like having someone use a dental drill on your eardrums. The rest of the music is pretty much wonderful.

concealer404

I'd swap in the 11TLs and see what you get. That's a free experiment.

Pycroft

Any recommendations of SACD's in the Classical Genre? I prefer big symphonic works, with or without choir. If I had to rank my top five favorite musical pieces they are probably 1. Beethoven's Missa Solemnis 2. Brahms Requiem 3. Dvorak's 9th Symphony 4. Brahms 4th Symphony 5. Handel's Messiah. I performed all but one of them, so I know them well. In speaking with George today, I think I know the problem...since I listen to music I have been intimately involved with, I have that ideal sound in my head, and when it isn't reproduced, I think something is missing. The word that came to me today was that it lacked 'girth'. I heard a comparison of one of the Stones CD's and SACD's, and the SACD was better (Although in conversation he suggested it wasn't always so). Any recommended SACD recordings of the above pieces or anything that you have that I may be interested in hearing to audition a loaned SACD player?

Thanks, and thanks for the comments above...very informative.

vc69

Danny Tse could probably make some recommendations.

Do you have an SACD capable player?

Pycroft

I am borrowing a SACD player...and it looks like i will have to, sometime soon, invest in a tuner then

Thanks...

George Grand

He walked out of here with one.

I have so few SACD's, and none of them are classical, that I wasn't able to give him any real comparisons in the area he's looking at. I sent him home with a machine hoping for el cheapo recommendations to him or maybe even some loaners.

Pycroft

I know von Karajan very well. I have almost all of his last conducting appearances on DVD. Of particular note are his Brahms Requiem, and his best - Verdi Requiem.

I'll see if I can grab some of his...thanks. I checked ebay hoping to find a few cheap ones, and no luck.

James

Pycroft

Is there a quality difference is a hybrid SACD and a SACD that only plays in the SACD player? Is a hybrid less quality? I ask, becaue if not...would it be a good comparison to buy a hybrid SACD and listen to it in a regular CD player and as a SACD in a SACD player to hear the difference?

mmadden28

I'm going to SWAG and say there will not be a difference. The Redbook and SACD each have thier own layer on the disc, they're not sharing space or anything. On some SACD players you can control which layer to play (if you wanted to compare the Redbook and SACD layers). Besides, I'm not sure many SACD titles come in both Hybrid and non-Hybrid versions (I'm just happy that some of the titles I like actually have an SACD version at all).

Also note that SACD comes in two varieties as well, 2 channel stereo only and Multichannel (which includes both multichannel and stereo). So if you get a Hybrid Multichannel SACD, you get 3 options on the same disc - Redbook, Stereo SACD, and Multichannel SACD.

I haven't done enough research to say for sure, but SACD multichannel is 5 channels, not 5.1, so if you choose to use a sub, your player (or other ext method) will have to handle bass management.

I know there is not much of a fanbase for multichannel music around here, but some titles are worth it - few and far between, but well mixed and quite an experience. To name a few: Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms; Pink Floyd DSOTM; Beck Sea Change. And some DVD-A (not SACD) have several multichannel mixes available where the recording engineers give the listener the option to listen from the audience or from the stage with the performers. provides for a little something different.

vc69

Pycroft wrote: »

Is there a quality difference is a hybrid SACD and a SACD that only plays in the SACD player? Is a hybrid less quality? I ask, becaue if not...would it be a good comparison to buy a hybrid SACD and listen to it in a regular CD player and as a SACD in a SACD player to hear the difference?

I have never noticed a difference. DSD is DSD as far as I can tell. Comparing a redbook layer with the SACD layer should give you a good idea of the differences. Bare in mind, the redbook layer is often a remastered version (If the SACD layer is) and can be different than a redbook only release. In other words, the redbook layer of a hybrid is often different from the redbook-only release of a given title. Those differences can be subtle or dramatic.

This can also be true with Dual-Disc DVD-A's.

fatchowmein

Pycroft wrote: »

Any recommendations of SACD's in the Classical Genre?

I am no guru nor would I be mistaken for someone knowledgeable in the classics. But I am a fan so I humbly suggest the following.

Living Stereo Telarc SACD
Bartok
Concerto for Orchestra
Reiner

Living Stereo Telarc SACD
Mahler
The Song of the Earth
Reiner

Living Stereo Telarc SACD
Berlioz
Harold in Italy Overtures
Munch
(May be too light for your taste)

Telarc SACD
Handel
Music for the Royal Fireworks/Water Music
Pearlman

Harmonia Mundi SACD
Handel
Concerti grossi Op.3
Sonata a 5
Egarr
(My favorite so far)

Grammophon SACD
Beethoven
Symphonies Nos 5 & 7
Kleiber

Telarc SACD
Orff
Carmina Burana
Runnicles
(I can't decide if I prefer this version or Shaw's. I own this one and my cousin owns Shaw's version.)

Mercury Living Presence SACD
Rodrigo
Concierto de Aranjuez
The Romeros
(Definitely too light for your taste but a fantastic version played with 4 guitars.)

+1 on the large speakers.

Danny Tse

vc69 wrote: »

Danny Tse could probably make some recommendations.

I'm not a classical music expert but I'd recommend picking up those SACD titles from the Mercury Living Presence and the RCA Living Stereo series. They are inexpensive, expertly remastered for SACD, and have excellent performances.

Pycroft wrote: »

Is there a quality difference is a hybrid SACD and a SACD that only plays in the SACD player? Is a hybrid less quality? I ask, becaue if not...would it be a good comparison to buy a hybrid SACD and listen to it in a regular CD player and as a SACD in a SACD player to hear the difference?

There shouldn't be any differences between a hybrid SACD and a single-layer SACD. However, keep in mind that there were some classical SACDs issued by Sony and Universal Music that never got re-released as a hybrid SACD.

mmadden28 wrote: »

On some SACD players you can control which layer to play (if you wanted to compare the Redbook and SACD layers).

I haven't done enough research to say for sure, but SACD multichannel is 5 channels, not 5.1, so if you choose to use a sub, your player (or other ext method) will have to handle bass management.

I'd imagine almost all SACD players will allow switching between the CD layer and the SACD layer. The problem is that it takes forever for the player to switch between those layers that meaningful A/B comparison is almost impossible.

SACD can support 5.1 surround, if mixed in that fashion.

vc69 wrote: »

I have never noticed a difference. DSD is DSD as far as I can tell. Comparing a redbook layer with the SACD layer should give you a good idea of the differences. Bare in mind, the redbook layer is often a remastered version (If the SACD layer is) and can be different than a redbook only release. In other words, the redbook layer of a hybrid is often different from the redbook-only release of a given title. Those differences can be subtle or dramatic.

Also, the CD layer of a SACD can be HDCD-encoded. While the HDCD-encoded CD mix can be played back by any CD player, the benefits of HDCD may not be realized until you hear it properly decoded.

There're many plain old classical CDs that have been remastered using DSD....notably from Sony Classical. These are often older recordings but they benefited from up-to-date technologies.