Stuck in a groove?

madmax

Last night I went home and turned on the 2 channel system. For a long time I've been tweaking everything and I pretty much know where everything "must" be set for it to sound like anything. For example the electronic crossover and gain settings, the tactile transducer amp and crossover, the settings for the phono resistance and capacitance etc. Likewise I "know" of many of the sound limitations of the equipment. For example the lower mid bass has a dip in it, etc.

I decided it was time to push all that knowledge behind me and see what I could change. First off I changed the gain and crossover to the bass speakers (bass, not subwoofer) to something I knew wouldn't sound good. It didn't disappoint me, huge midbass hump. Then I cranked up the tactile transducers to work with the new setting for the bass.

Here is where it got tough. I knew mentally where everything had to be set and I almost couldn't even let myself listen to it. I wanted so badly to set those controls back to where I felt comfortable that I couldn't believe it.

At that point I played with the phono settings and threw them way out of the ball park. Hey! It was starting to sound better now. I played and played with more changes and finally I was beginning to enjoy a lot of different sounds I didn't think my system produced very well.

Right now there is still a slight hump in the midbass but the system sounds totally different, but right. Much bigger and a lot fuller. Imaging isn't quite what it was but not bad. Its as if I brought a different system in. I guess the lesson to be learned is to give up your previous finds every now and then and explore. Sure, changing one setting makes everything suck, that is until you match up everything else. It all depends on what your starting point is as to where you end up. Now to try and eliminate that little hump.

You may go now.
madmax

beardog03

go max go !!

Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want...!!

Hilbert

Got it---I'll go and boost the treble on my Yamaha 663 now.:)

kawizx9r

Only thing I can control is the volume and input select.....oh and power switches

Really though, I found my HT setup sounding MUCH better after setting everything up over again using different blurays/dvds as my reference. I was surprised by the results, and wanted to kick myself for not trying said-settings earlier in time.

reeltrouble1

Since our own Madmax Chuckster extrodinaire coined the Everything Matters mantra I have certainly given this advice, well, due process. Now low and behold years later along comes some very knowledgeable audio folks purporting that any system at any level will benefit from a consistent approach in handling energy through a systems given cable "loom" and support foundation.

Theorizing in effect that a simple change of one thing (say a single platform stand) in a hi-fi system will not result in much change to the overall sound of the system. Yes some slight change might be heard, but again if changing say a single cable in the system's cable loom certainly will not maximize the systems components potential with that one change in cable, support, cone and so on.

Of perhaps even greater insight may be the blaming of "the law of diminishing return" for poor performance of expensive component upgrades when one is changed out, wherein the given cabling loom or energy support system is unable or mismatched to that given component. A consistent use of cabling and energy products along with support foundations is key to maximizing the system's muscial potential.

Although somewhat tangent to what I believe MM is saying his end game system still needed several changes along the path to "discover" a new more pleasent muscial sound..pretty much everthing has to change since Everything Matters...

OK,...now your done

RT1--Do you hear me.

Oh and just one more thing...Freddy---Manley means Magic and should be on your list.....afterall MadMax plays with his for a reason. check out that Steelhead he uses on their website....yousa.

madmax

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

Although somewhat tangent to what I believe MM is saying his end game system still needed several changes along the path to "discover" a new more pleasent muscial sound..pretty much everthing has to change since Everything Matters...

Yes.

But more importantly I was pointing out that some of the things you "know" must be periodically challenged otherwise you will never move very far forward. For example, pull those MITs off your system and prove once again they are the best for you. (they will go back on pretty quickly). Throw out that preamp no matter how much you love it and see what you get. Try a new component here and there. Push the limits between cheap stuff you can't give away vs expensive stuff that costs more than your car. Change that speaker position you know is best. Give up some attribute you love to see what else there is. etc....

reeltrouble1

So lets say you change your beloved cartridge, not necessarily for a supposed better or worse cartridge just a change in the cartridge alone......albiet the way it was and still may be done by audio reviewers who then write their words, discovering perhaps another breakthough better than the one four months ago........sure you get a change but is what your hearing the maximum potential either negative or positive of the change within your system or is a part of your sytem now limiting what your hearing with your change.....in our example of course the impedance of the phono pre would likely be completely out of wack requiring a change, the stylus compliance, the tonearm weight is likely different and we have a different impedance so we have changed the system energy management, enter the total cabling loom and so on.

Everything Matters and I am buying total cable loom, foundation and energy consistency theory across the system. So think about that next change.......or beware the dark places of the RABBIT HOLE and where they might lead.

but have fun. oh, and check out Art Dudley's thoughts........yea he reported on this first.

RT1

vc69

LoL.

You guys are in a different rabbit hole than I am. God forbid I find yours.;)

reeltrouble1

vc,

oh your in the HOLE, just a bit different corridor, but headed our way.....beware the voices along your audio pathway.....

RT1

madmax

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

Everything Matters and I am buying total cable loom, foundation and energy consistency theory across the system. So think about that next change.......or beware the dark places of the RABBIT HOLE and where they might lead.

but have fun. oh, and check out Art Dudley's thoughts........yea he reported on this first.

RT1

I read some of this stuff elsewhere too but didn't remember where. Mantis was a proponent of this stuff many years ago and we discussed things like going with the same cable manufacturer/series etc. And yes, I think many reviewers just add a piece in a system and tell you what they hear rather than tweaking everything around the new part. We do it as casual reviewers of new components sometimes too. Yep, that new preamp we tried sucked so bad at first listening we sold it as quickly as possible. It may have been the best pre we ever had. As audio freaks we tweak everything around everything until eventually we become insane.

reeltrouble1

I would say the most important thing is that a person just think about all this, then as you say do what you wish, shake it up without hesitation...go for it, try some different kind of thing.....I always wondered what my tube buffer would do to my TT sound......I am predesposed that it might not be good.....but without trying I will never know.......so I hear you.

RT1

madmax

Now, if I could get a little more of that imaging back.

The problem with duo's is the horns image like a MFer. The bass does not. If you lower the bass crossover frequency the horns are free to do their thing but you get a dip in freq response. If you take care of this dip by raising the xover freq then you start loosing some image. I often wonder if "perfect" is out there and if so then how much? Its always something...

reeltrouble1

no I do not think perfect has yet been achieved, better yes, but I still agree with the likes of the Late Gordon Holt......there is no perfect component, for now you still seem to have to give up just a bit in one place to approach perfection in another...my Sound Labs are near perfect in imaging and sound stage, they do quite well in lower Hz but there are speakers that can go dynamically and physically lower but it is a little thing.

When I got home yesterday an OppO was waiting for me, it has been a while since I used an entry piece and I am kind of excited to see what it can do in the Reel Time Theater, the gear in the HT is not quite (ok far from) the gear in the RHR but still I am looking forward to hearing some nice music and concerts as well as sound tracks......we will see as I have been using a very nice Pioneer Elite for a very long time.

So then with the duo's do you mean you cannot find the bass within the stage as you raise your cross? it would seem it would still be the best scenario but I really dont get why that is going on, the subs are directly built to blend with the horns. Of course I play with more full range, knowing you a bit I would think your placement is spot on, so does the cross offer what you need or did Avantgarde let something slip here is something getting lost or loose.

RT1

madmax

It is my thought that the fellows at Avantgarde tried to please everyone by making it not only a bass speaker but a subwoofer as well. Lets face it, thats a tall order for two drivers in a small enclosure. Generally those not enthused with the bigger than life super subwoofer sound disconnect one of the drivers and let it work as a passive radiator changing the whole thing into something more worthy of real music. At first I thought you would have to be crazy to alter the original design but now I see.

After my initial thrills that first night with all the changes I left the system off the next night. Last night I powered it on again expecting the sound to be totally jacked up, kind of like when you play with an eq until it sounds good and find out a few days later you didn't do yourself any favors. Oh man was I surprised! Big, full, effortless, unbelievable soundstage, totally live sounding, no noticeable bumps or dips, exciting, you name it. Who knows maybe I wasn't hearing correctly or maybe I was in the perfect music mood or something but I have never heard any system anywhere sound like this on so many different types of music. I may have hit the perfect balance here. We'll see over time.

beardog03

just goes to show.....sometimes change is good !

reeltrouble1

beardog03 wrote: »

just goes to show.....sometimes change is good !

true.......afterall, Norton lived a good portion his life in a sewer, but came home to do the quick change for Trixie.....now she was smokin hot.

glad your enjoying the music Chuck.

RT1

vc69

RT1

I would love to hear your impressions of the -83 once you have spent some time with it. I am especially interested in what you think of it in the 2ch rig if you are so inclined. I won't color your impression with my thoughts right now, but I would love to discuss it once you have formed an impression.

madmax

Yeah, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the -83 as well. I plan on buying one soon.
madmax

reeltrouble1

well, the odds of the OppO hitting the Rabbit Hole are not all that good, actually kinda between slim and none.....hopefully slim won't ride completely out of town,,,,,,once I have the 83 hooked to the gear in the Reel Time Theater it just might stay there for good, basically I am kinda lazy, but you never know, I will though put something up for music in the HT with the OppO compared to the present Pioneer Elite Player and my present Magnavox blu-ray player, however, be advised I am also changing the Oinker out to an outstanding B&K (doro's 317 model) so then........is it Live or is it Memorex, two changes at once on the gear side makes evaluation somewhat tainted as to what is doing what....I only buy baseline consistency theory for cable loom, foundation and energy management issues. The other gear just needs to mesh or synergize on a more individual level with each other dependent upon signal path.

The OppO though incorporates a 7.1 analog out option, which I will be using, the OppO will decode the HD sound tracks and pass the signal via analog to the B&K, also I use a B&K 7270 for amplification along with a Polk SWA-500 for my twin CSW-200 woofers. I will have the OppO pass the video signal via HDMI directly to my Pioneer Elite Monitor. Of course I am going to have look at the menu to see how difficult its going to be swith the HT speakers from multi to 2-ch and back and all that jazz.

still though should be some fun no matter what.

RT1

jaxwired

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

..but have fun. oh, and check out Art Dudley's thoughts........yea he reported on this first. RT1

I read that article also. Very interesting indeed.

Some cable manufacturers give cable matching recommendations. I use Chord Company cable (very popular in UK) and they provide online advice as well as a "cable doctor" email support. Before Chord I used AQ and nothing against AQ, but I'd never switch back. Love this Chord stuff and it's relatively cheap.