Inwalls or standalone?

Jstas

OK, I have a basement with tons of room in it. It's finished but the walls are junk and there's water damage. I fixed the water problem but the walls have to come down and stud structure replaced where necessary.

This is a primo opportunity! I never thought I would have this to consider but I have to ask, what's a better idea? Inwall speakers like Polk's TCi series or floorstanders/satellites?

Power is not a problem. I will likely be having a second service run to the house because I really don't think the current service is 200 amps. But a second feed that is 200 amps is planned. Gotta run the feed for big power for air compressors and other shop stuff too. Anyway, I will have the power to run for amplification.

The room is large and I'm going to keep the open floor plan. It has a low ceiling though, around 7 feet. So I need some stuff with guts. Would I be able to have inwalls that could have enough strength to fill the room with sound for movies? I'm not worried about subs. I can build my own subs. Hell, I HAVE subs that hit 158+ dB at one point. So boom is not a problem. I'm concerned about fullrange speakers.

The room is about 30 feet wide by 90 feet long, I believe? I gotta measure again but yeah, it's huge!

Oh and planning a 60" Pioneer plasma. I can get a discount 'cause of a local friend's employment discount. The other end of the room will be my own personal bar and a pool table separating the two sections.

bigaudiofanatic

My vote is going to go with floor standing. Although in wall/ceiling speakers are good I just do not think you're going to get the room filling audio you will get from conventional speakers such as floor standing. Also besides the fact that your saying that your walls are not that good and from my guess not that insulated, it is yet another reason to go with floor standing. One more thing is that with such a big room you should have no worries about having speakers all round.

Jstas

It's a basement. The finished walls are stud work secured to a concrete foundation. It doesn't get more vibration proof than that.

packetjones

i would not go with in wall. Your options for upgrade in the future are limited. I would run all the wiring in the wall but stick with standalone so you can upgrade when you want to in the future.

apphd

packetjones wrote: »

i would not go with in wall. Your options for upgrade in the future are limited. I would run all the wiring in the wall but stick with standalone so you can upgrade when you want to in the future.

I add my vote for floor standers for the options it keeps open as pj pointed out, and I'm not sure in walls could give you what you want sound wise in that room. My other thought is that it is a basement, with prior water damage. Not sure why the water damage occurred, but basements being what they are will be the first to flood. Even if it's a 1 in a million chance never rule it out. At least with floor standers you may have time to move them to higher ground. On the other hand if flooding is about to happen your speakers may be lower on your list of concerns and having them up off the floor allows you to focus on those more important things.

concealer404

Floor standers. The closest i've come to being wowed by an in-wall setup was a full Klipsch THX setup, and the coin dropped into that was just ridiculous.

RuSsMaN

Go inwalls. You won't need to upgrade if you do it right the first time. That, and it sounds like a multi-purpose room for entertaining, etc - definately inwalls!

Face

For HT and background music only, go in wall.

Jstas

Yeah, I think I should point out that I have several 2 channel rigs that get the upgrades and such. I'm not too concerned about upgrading the HT. I'm probably going to go with a NAD unit anyway and they have modular upgrade cards. Speakers I don't think I would change much at all except maybe subwoofers. It's a home theater, for movies and TV. Music is a secondary concern.

And for those not impressed by inwall set ups, go listen to the Polk Audio offerings. I know I was thoroughly impressed with them at Polkfest '05. The TCi series was fairly inexpensive especially considering it rivaled the sound coming out of the LSi series. I liked them better than the LSi inwalls. Especially since they had SR series crossovers in them and we were assured that they would be using similar crossovers. They are also adjustable.



Also, the basement problem wasn't over flooding. The water damage is from mold and rot due to moisture problems caused by rain run-off from the ground around the house being pitched towards the foundation. Water was leeching in to the basement because the drainge was running right along the foundation. I spent 3 weekends wrestling with ground tillers and ripping out stumps, roots and rock and regrading. Stop over-analyzing my situation. Besides, I said I fixed it so it's not a concern anymore, it shouldn't even factor in to any recommendation. On top of that, if water really was a concern, I would not be considering putting any high dollar audio or video equipment in that room until it was fixed. Give me some credit here, folks.


And cost is not a concern either. I'm expecting a large price tag. If I was concerned about cost, I wouldn't have earmarked a Pioneer plasma. Even the KUROs are still over $3500. If I go with floorstanders, I'm probably leaning towards the KEF iQ series anyway. If I go with the inwalls, probably going to be the Polk Audio TCi series. I will likely build my own subs. Probably 15" sonotubes with 2K watts, a pair of them, in the corners. Like big, black, carpeted, monolithic earthquake machines. But I like the idea of inwalls because they aren't in the way. I can also do them quite easily if I'm tearing the walls down and rebuilding anyway.


Thanks for the suggestions so far though. Keep them coming. This is speculation right now. I got some time before I can do much of this anyway. I still have a bathroom to finish upstairs and I have to paint literally every room in the house. But once the bathroom is done and walls are painted, it'll be time to work on the library.

concealer404

Sounds like you've already convinced yourself that you want in-walls. Get them.

Jstas

No, I haven't convinced myself of anything. Reasons like "ridiculous coin" and water damage as reasons not to do inwalls aren't good reasons IMO. The water problem is fixed, it's a non-issue, that was stated in the original post but you and several others still listed it as a reason. The cost is not a concern either. But since you were harping on it, I wanted to take both things out of the equation.

Upgrades are a concern but I'm not really sure how much I will be upgrading a home theater. I already said I was going to get a NAD unit because they have the ability to upgrade the unit with cards instead of buying a whole new receiver/amp. So upgrades are a concern. That and I just like the NAD equipment. I have an integrated amp for my girlfriend at her place with KEF iQ9's hooked up and I'm honestly jealous because they perform that well. I wish I gave her something else and kept the KEF/NAD rig for myself. But it's discussion, not decision making. So if you are just going to tell me to do something instead of giving me pros and cons so we can all follow each others thought processes then that's not really what I was looking for.

concealer404

Jstas wrote: »

No, I haven't convinced myself of anything. Reasons like "ridiculous coin" and water damage as reasons not to do inwalls aren't good reasons IMO. The water problem is fixed, it's a non-issue, that was stated in the original post but you and several others still listed it as a reason. The cost is not a concern either. But since you were harping on it, I wanted to take both things out of the equation.

Upgrades are a concern but I'm not really sure how much I will be upgrading a home theater. I already said I was going to get a NAD unit because they have the ability to upgrade the unit with cards instead of buying a whole new receiver/amp. So upgrades are a concern. That and I just like the NAD equipment. I have an integrated amp for my girlfriend at her place with KEF iQ9's hooked up and I'm honestly jealous because they perform that well. I wish I gave her something else and kept the KEF/NAD rig for myself. But it's discussion, not decision making. So if you are just going to tell me to do something instead of giving me pros and cons so we can all follow each others thought processes then that's not really what I was looking for.

I do hope you are using "you" as collective.

But from your original post, it seems that your only worry with going inwalls was that you might not be able to fill your ginormous room with sound. If price is no object, as you say, then absolutely, you can do it.

If it's going to be a bar/entertaining area, then yeah, i'd worry about putting some nice expensive floorstanders down there myself, even if the room is that big, plus the floorstanders may interfere with the whole "open floorplan" perspective, once you take optimum placement into concern.

Gotta forgive me, i always jump to floorstanders because i can get more in my price range. But if cost was no object and i could afford the luxury of an entertaining room, i'd probably go in walls.

apphd

Jstas, sorry you misunderstood and were offended by my comments. Maybe this will help make it clear.

apphd wrote: »

I add my vote for floor standers for the options it keeps open as pj pointed out, and I'm not sure in walls could give you what you want sound wise in that room. My other thought is that it is a basement, with prior water damage. Not sure why the water damage occurred, but basements being what they are will be the first to flood. I was pretty sure what ever it was, you had it fixed, and implied nothing to the contrary. Whether it is or not was not part of my thoughts. Even if it's a 1 in a million chance never rule it out. No matter how flood proof you think you are do not rule it out At least with floor standers you may have time to move them to higher ground. On the other hand if flooding is about to happen your speakers may be lower on your list of concerns and having them up off the floor allows you to focus on those more important things.

mmadden28

You could do a combo. Mantis put in-walls in the rears with his new Mythos setup. Not sure if they have the option for front in-walls or not.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87284

If I were doing my own open floorplan type of setup in my basement HT rig, I'd be doing all in walls/ceiling or at least all the surrounds in-wall/ceiling with standalone front stage. I guess the front stage would really depend on the display (Plasma/LCD or PJ) and whether I'd have the gear up front or elsewhere and how "fun room proof" I'd want it to be. Oh and if you have the freedom to mount "on wall" surrounds or if they would be in the way depending on traffic flow.

Got any pics of the space?

Some in-walls require you to build you're own box within the studs, but some come pre-'boxed' so you can just pop them in. There are also a few in wall/in-ceiling subs out there.

dorourke07

In-walls for the fronts and in-ceiling for the rears to separate the theatre side from the entertainment side. A set of in-walls as a zone 2 in the entertainment side for background music. IMHO.

Jstas

mmadden28 wrote: »

You could do a combo. Mantis put in-walls in the rears with his new Mythos setup. Not sure if they have the option for front in-walls or not.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87284

If I were doing my own open floorplan type of setup in my basement HT rig, I'd be doing all in walls/ceiling or at least all the surrounds in-wall/ceiling with standalone front stage. I guess the front stage would really depend on the display (Plasma/LCD or PJ) and whether I'd have the gear up front or elsewhere and how "fun room proof" I'd want it to be. Oh and if you have the freedom to mount "on wall" surrounds or if they would be in the way depending on traffic flow.

Got any pics of the space?

Some in-walls require you to build you're own box within the studs, but some come pre-'boxed' so you can just pop them in. There are also a few in wall/in-ceiling subs out there.

I'd take pictures but the space is currently crammed with all the stuff that would normally be upstairs while the upstairs area is being fixed up. I'll get pictures when the space is emptied.


I was thinking that hanging surrounds for the rear would be good but, they would have to be quite small because the ceiling is so low. I have a corner where the small bathroom sticks out to mount one surround in that corner so that wouldn't be an issue. But the other surround would be floating in the middle of no where and taller people would likely nail their noggin on it. I don't care about their noggin nearly as much as I care about gear getting trashed!

But, you gave me an idea. If the rears are done in the ceiling, I can build a box to angle them towards the front and improve the off-axis response. I could do the same with the side speakers for a 6.1 setup and not lose more than an inch or two.

It'll be easy to build boxes in the walls and ceilings. The cheap wood paneling on the walls is coming down. It has to so I can see what's behind it and fix what ever I gotta fix. It would not be difficult at all to build the necessary enclosures. Besides, I want to do sheet rock all around instead of paneling because if I do upgrade inwalls, I don't have a problem tearing out an inwall and repairing the rock. I can do that in my sleep and make it look like a million bucks. Can't do that with paneling.


I'm not sure where I'm going to put the gear. I have a large utility area that I could use to hide all the gear but that requires fancy stuff for remotes and lots of wire running. It would be way easier to power it all though. But at the same time, a front stage would be hard to do cleanly stand alone with remote equipment. But then again, hiding stuff "fun proofs" it pretty well. But again, standalone gives you more options and different levels of performance.


I don't think I want to do inwall subs. They require a good deal of work for sound and vibration dampening and many need venting because the subs are slot loaded. Slot loading limits your frequency response from the sub and can be very peaky. Also, you are very limited in sub placement and you can't "test the waters" so to speak. You can compensate for poor positioning by just jacking up the power but then you run the risk over over-powering the room as well as the sub and things can get muddy and boomy. Trying to tweak things to tune that out is frustrating to say the least. With a standalone sub, it can be moved before determining final position and since it can use wall reflections to load the room, you don't need to run so much power.

concealer404

Put the fancy touchscreen displays on your walls to queue up music and control everything, and put all the gear in the back.

Jstas

dorourke07 wrote: »

In-walls for the fronts and in-ceiling for the rears to separate the theatre side from the entertainment side. A set of in-walls as a zone 2 in the entertainment side for background music. IMHO.

Oh, I'm not even worried about the bar/pool table area. I have plenty of gear to stick in that area and I'll have a wall that will just have some shelving on it for booze and glassware storage. Maybe a smaller TV in the corner for having a game on that's not on the big TV and plugged in to the other speakers. I wouldn't even really want to mess with a zone 2 unless I was able to get the speakers for a song.

But I do see what you're saying. The thing I don't really like about a zone setup is that you're really limited on what you can do with programming material. It's hard to do a zoned system and be able to run multiple programming on different zones. At least not without fancy switching gear and stuff. That gets REAL expensive and it's a headache to set up. The drag is, if it's a Sunday afternoon and you got the Vikings and the Packers at Lambeau on the big screen, you can't run the Bengals and the Broncos on the small screen and pipe the audio for both in to the separate zones without having multiple tuners.

If you have a second, smaller set of speakers with a stereo receiver or amp/pre-amp combo, you can do it easily by just using the audio out on the cable box or the TV. It doesn't have to be fancy stuff either. You could use an old Sansui and a pair of KLH 17's or 22's or like AR-3's or something. Not that you want the two systems really competing with each other but the bar/pool table area is near field listening and the HT isn't. So the bar/pool table area doesn't need to be wicked powerful or blaring to get tthe point across.

mmadden28

Jstas wrote: »

...
But, you gave me an idea. If the rears are done in the ceiling, I can build a box to angle them towards the front and improve the off-axis response. I could do the same with the side speakers for a 6.1 setup and not lose more than an inch or two.

Some for the higher end in ceiling and inwall speakers are already angled, and have adjustable tweeters too. Actually I have one of the not so high end Polk in walls and it has an adjustable tweeter.

Jstas wrote: »

...

I'm not sure where I'm going to put the gear. I have a large utility area that I could use to hide all the gear but that requires fancy stuff for remotes and lots of wire running. It would be way easier to power it all though. But at the same time, a front stage would be hard to do cleanly stand alone with remote equipment....

You shouldn't need a fancy remote (although I would highly recommend getting a Harmony One or 880 at a minimum), just one of the IR repeaters. It's just an IR receiver thingy placed where you want it, and it goes to the repeater (via small guage low voltage wire). You plug in a bunch of small IR transmitters into the repeater and stick one in front of each device you want to control. The repeater doesn't care if you're using a fancy remote or the factory remotes. Or you place the gear somewhere with visual access and just point the remote(s) towards it for use (That might get confusing for guests though if it's in the rear or side). I've seen installs where they put the gear in the bar area so the bartender (usu the owner) can have full control, and it keeps the noise away from the viewing area.

In my basement Home theater (dedicated) I'm putting my gear in a rack in the side rear of the room, recessed into the wall. Couple benefits in my doing it this way...recessing it into the wall allows gear front visibility and control but puts the bulk of the gear into my HVAC room, so I can add fans and such and not worry about heat problems; all the equipment noise is essentially in another room so its quieter; and I have full open access to all the gear, wires and cables without having to pull gear out of the rack etc.; Another benefit for me, is since I am using a PJ, I won't have to have as long an HDMI cable running to it since the AVR is closer to the PJ now. Yes I have to have longer front stage speaker cables, but this is not the dedicated 2 channel rig anyway so no fancy expensive cables on it.

If yuo have the right layout, or a nearby room with space you might consider a dedicated closet for your gear since you're essentially building from scratch. But keep it up front since your using a Plasma (short display cable run). It would at least take care of the cooling and noise issues and maybe keep visitors from touching the gear.

I'm not done my HT build yet, so I don't have all the design and layout issues resolved yet--just throwing a few suggestions/ideas your way.

Jstas

mmadden28 wrote: »

I'm not done my HT build yet, so I don't have all the design and layout issues resolved yet--just throwing a few suggestions/ideas your way.

That's what I'm looking for. Bouncing stuff around helps the thought process and maybe somebody thought of something I didn't think of yet or maybe they have a better idea on how to do something. It helps.

mmadden28

Jstas wrote: »

...I wouldn't even really want to mess with a zone 2 unless I was able to get the speakers for a song.

...

Not sure I completely followed that (your intention) at least I think I might follow you on the multiple tuner issue though; You prob already know this and I know you don't have the same gear but...on my Onkyo 805, it has support for 2 additional zones. The Onk powers Zone 2, but zone 3 is line level. Each zone can have its own source-meaning I can have a movie on the main, XM/AM/FM on Zone 2, and ipod/squeezebox to zone 3 (the to a DAC and amp) all at the same time and independently control each volume. Not sure if that helps or not.

mmadden28

As far as zones go, the new Sonos ZonePlayer S5 system looks cool, esp for ease of use with multiple sources and controllable via an iPhone (if you have one). You could just place one of the units in each of the remote areas, they are self contained powered speaker thingys, esp if its just for non-critical listening.

Jstas

mmadden28 wrote: »

If yuo have the right layout, or a nearby room with space you might consider a dedicated closet for your gear since you're essentially building from scratch. But keep it up front since your using a Plasma (short display cable run). It would at least take care of the cooling and noise issues and maybe keep visitors from touching the gear.

I actually have a pantry near the bottom of the stairs that takes up a ton of room in the utility room area and I don't really need it. There is a workshop area back there and I'm keeping that. There are some recessed cabinets for an old console TV and really lame bookshelf that I will pull out. It will give me a good deal of space for the workbench area. I'm planning on an air compressor as well as some big power for a tire machine and a wheel balancer (yes, I'm nuts, I know). There will be cabinets and light. Lots and lots of light in that room. But, I can make a recessed cabinet with a glass door on the front that would allow IR signals through and I can put a door on the other end as well to keep junk out of the rack. I have old fans from when ATM's were the size of a Buick. They are wired on a board and I used to use them in a garage for evacuating paint fumes. I can secure them in the top of the cabinet to pull hot air out of the cabinet.

It would be a clean look and eliminate the need for the repeater. You'd still get to see all the flashy lights too! The door would keep the noise down as well.

mmadden28

Yeah that was the other reason I put the gear in the rear, I didn't want the lights to be a distraction when watching movies--I guess a tinted or frosted door would help. But you're not setting up a dedicated and dark HT so its probably a non-issue.

Jstas

I was looking at zone systems earlier today and I'm not really sure that's how I want to go. I don't need zones in the house 'cause I have other gear. I suppose the zones could work well for the basement but that's honestly the only place other than the garage that I would put a zone and it's not really worth it IMO. Especially when I have so much gear hanging around.

If the HT was the only programming source for music, movies and such I'd be all over zones and doing the whole home automation thing. But I have the Amazings rig, my SDA rig, enough KLH speakers for another home theater as well as another HT receiver and the Totem Rainbow rig with several pre-amps and amps for computer audio. So zoning things isn't a necessity and without that necessity it hard to see the benefit, ya know?


Lotsa food for thought and I'm starting to think I have too much gear!

concealer404

Jstas wrote: »

Lotsa food for thought and I'm starting to think I have too much gear!

Say 50 hail marys.