Damping factor

NJPOLKER
NJPOLKER Posts: 3,474
edited November 2009 in 2 Channel Audio
I decided to look up "damping factor" to try and learn something about it. My Belles Amp has a damping factor greater than 2,000 which is high compared to most other amps so I wanted to see what the deal is and here is what I found. Maybe some of you will find it interesting, maybe not.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping_factor
Post edited by NJPOLKER on
· Share on FacebookShare on Twitter

Comments

  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,031
    edited November 2009
    Damping factor rocks, but it's only part of the equation.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • janmike
    janmike Posts: 6,146
    edited November 2009
    Tom, are you not attending the festivities?
    Michael ;)
    In the beginning, all knowledge was new!
    NORTH of 60°
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • NJPOLKER
    NJPOLKER Posts: 3,474
    edited November 2009
    treitz3 wrote: »
    Damping factor rocks, but it's only part of the equation.

    Hi Tom,
    Please explain if you can. I am trying to learn about this "stuff" as I build my system. One of the things I just learned and I hope its accurate is that my amp controls my drivers really well.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,031
    edited November 2009
    janmike wrote: »
    Tom, are you not attending the festivities?
    Leaving in about 6 or 7 hours. Sad to hear that you will not be there this time.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • janmike
    janmike Posts: 6,146
    edited November 2009
    treitz3 wrote: »
    Leaving in about 6 or 7 hours. Sad to hear that you will not be there this time.

    Safe trip and enjoy.

    Thanks, there will be others I'm sure. Maybe next year.
    Michael ;)
    In the beginning, all knowledge was new!
    NORTH of 60°
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,031
    edited November 2009
    Drew, "Q", current capabilities of the amp and available power, clean/dirty power and many other factors like surface area all have a play in how damping factor can effect the end result as to what hits your ears.

    To keep it simple, the damping factor plays a very important part in reproduction. That said, it's only one of many parts that make the end result accurate.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited November 2009
    High damping factors are usually found in big SS amps with multiple output devices.The paralleling of the output transistors reduces the output impedance which in turn increases the DF.However once the resistance of the speaker cable is included in the loop the seemingly big number is dramatically reduced.While damping factor is important there is a point of diminishing returns and some claim a DF in the 30-50 neighborhood is adequate.
    Testing
    Testing
    Testing
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • anhchungdoan
    anhchungdoan Posts: 760
    edited November 2009
    Do not know much abt technical stuff but the higher damping factor is always better and it has something to do with more dynamic and tigher and deeper bass. Now , you guys can mock me and I am going to get some good sleep dreaming abt the new Norah Jones' look. Hot chick.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • anhchungdoan
    anhchungdoan Posts: 760
    edited November 2009
    NJPOLKER wrote: »
    I decided to look up "damping factor" to try and learn something about it. My Belles Amp has a damping factor greater than 2,000 which is high compared to most other amps so I wanted to see what the deal is and here is what I found. Maybe some of you will find it interesting, maybe not.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping_factor

    Try google this : Damping factor by Ben Blish. Food for thought. Good night.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • SCompRacer
    SCompRacer Posts: 8,500
    edited November 2009
    GV#27 wrote: »
    High damping factors ....


    Great answer. One other factor is speakers are not fixed resistive loads. Impedance of the woofer dances throughout the frequency range, so real world damping numbers would bounce up and down.
    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • anhchungdoan
    anhchungdoan Posts: 760
    edited November 2009
    Another reading for you from Crown.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • LessisNevermore
    LessisNevermore Posts: 1,519
    edited November 2009
    anhchungdoan wrote: »
    Another reading for you from Crown.

    So it would seem that very high damping factors would be more important for larger, full-range speakers with large woofers. Lower DF would probably be fine for bookshelf speaks. (or at least that's what I got from the paper)
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,804
    edited November 2009
    Damping factor is nothing more than the ratio of the load impedance to the output impedance of the amplifier. "Modern" amplifiers tend to have gobs of NFB to give them very low damping factors (but there's more to life than damping factors -- the cure can be worse than the disease).

    The other factor, of course, is that the load impedance isn't fixed (unless you "listen" to resistors instead of real-world loudspeakers) -- damping factor isn't really even a constant.

    Near the top of my list of useless specifications. YMMV, of course.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • CoolJazz
    CoolJazz Posts: 570
    edited November 2009
    LessisNevermore wrote: »
    So it would seem that very high damping factors would be more important for larger, full-range speakers with large woofers. Lower DF would probably be fine for bookshelf speaks. (or at least that's what I got from the paper)

    If you don't take into account the real world speaker maybe this could, but isn't, a reasonable guess. The problem that I don't see mentioned, even in that pretty good first paper, is that in modern drivers there has been a rush to win the number war. In this case the power handling and magnet weight war.

    What we've wound up with is speakers that in many cases are highly over damped. The note of the kick drum just can't finish it's movement accurately. You get a very driving initial thump that's very pleasing. But the natural decay is GONE!

    Listen to the real thing or close your eyes and remember how the real thing sounds, then listen to the popular but incorrect sharp thump that modern speaker/amplifiers designs give. Very pleasing chest thump but very often highly inaccurate! And yes, I agree, the feedback is a big player in this!

    The overdampened design is yet another reason the idea of lower resistance, bigger conductor speaker wire can lead to an "improvement" that is unfortunately musically incorrect! Higher dampening numbers is extremely misleading!

    CoolJazz
    A so called science type proudly says... "I do realize that I would fool myself all the time, about listening conclusions and many other observations, if I did listen before buying. That’s why I don’t, I bought all of my current gear based on technical parameters alone, such as specs and measurements."

    More amazing Internet Science Pink Panther wisdom..."My DAC has since been upgraded from Mark Levinson to Topping."
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • anhchungdoan
    anhchungdoan Posts: 760
    edited November 2009
    NJPOLKER wrote: »
    I decided to look up "damping factor" to try and learn something about it. My Belles Amp has a damping factor greater than 2,000 which is high compared to most other amps so I wanted to see what the deal is and here is what I found. Maybe some of you will find it interesting, maybe not.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping_factor


    Is it the amp that will not only double the power but will jump 4 times in power when bridge in mono ? If it is you have a gem on your hands. I have listened to one of the Belles amp driving a pair of Magnapan a while back and I was impressed. I would keep the amp as a good collection even if I do not use it anymore.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited November 2009
    CoolJazz wrote: »
    feedback is a big player in this!
    Yeah increasing feedback will increase the DF and there are those designers that contend that high levels of NFB will also impact sound quality in a negative way.
    Testing
    Testing
    Testing
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • NJPOLKER
    NJPOLKER Posts: 3,474
    edited November 2009
    My ears tell me I have the right AMP and from what I have read so far it may just be perfect to dive my SRSII's. High current, high power and a damping factor of greater than 2,000 - these speakers love current and probably need great driver control. I am currently, no pun, running Audioquest Mammoths which are as big as a garden hose, high quality copper and if I read correctly excellent insulation.

    Some spec's on the Belles 350a
    Power at 8 ohms is 250 watts and at 4 ohms 500 watts and 1,000 watts in mono-block configuration.

    Frequency response -0.2 to 100,000 Hz
    Distortion-Less than 0.1 at rated power
    Damping factor- Over 2,000
    Peak Current- Over 64 amperes
    Input sensitivity-1.98 volts for rated power
    Input Impedance-50,000 ohms
    Hum and noise >100db
    Gain 21 voltage ratio or 2.44db
    Power rating 120vac 10.0a fuse
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • anhchungdoan
    anhchungdoan Posts: 760
    edited November 2009
    NJPOLKER wrote: »
    My ears tell me I have the right AMP and from what I have read so far it may just be perfect to dive my SRSII's. High current, high power and a damping factor of greater than 2,000 - these speakers love current and probably need great driver control. I am currently, no pun, running Audioquest Mammoths which are as big as a garden hose, high quality copper and if I read correctly excellent insulation.

    Some spec's on the Belles 350a
    Power at 8 ohms is 250 watts and at 4 ohms 500 watts and 1,000 watts in mono-block configuration.

    Frequency response -0.2 to 100,000 Hz
    Distortion-Less than 0.1 at rated power
    Damping factor- Over 2,000
    Peak Current- Over 64 amperes
    Input sensitivity-1.98 volts for rated power
    Input Impedance-50,000 ohms
    Hum and noise >100db
    Gain 21 voltage ratio or 2.44db
    Power rating 120vac 10.0a fuse

    I have heard the Belles amps ( don't remember the model) configurated in mono driving the big Magnapan at the Audio Concept in Houston some 10/15 years ago, if memory serves me well, I loved them but I could not afford them back then.

    Too bad, Audio Concept went out of business few months ago and there is no dealer in town carries them. Do not mind to try them again with the LFT 8a planar speakers.:)
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter