setup upgrade

arun1963

Hi,

Going to start the setup upgrade shortly. I know for sure, that I can't do this alone. So I'm counting on some help. Hopefully from everyone.

I want to use this opportunity to fix some install issues as well. Issues that have always been there, but I've just caught up with them recently. I planned on starting the thread this weekend, once I had pics of the install / mounting and the car interiors. The weekend is a couple of days away and I just could'nt wait to get started.

For a start here's the current install;

hu - pio p-80rs = p-880. The 880 is sold as the p-80rs here.

Fronts - mmc6500 momo 6.5" comps

4Ch amp - pa500.4

Sub - MM2124 svc in a sealed 0.8cuft encl. I did'nt know the advantage of dvc 2 years back. Sub is 450rms.

mono amp - pa400.1 200watts at 4ohms. Talk about and underpowered sub.

stinger rca's and kicker speaker wires.

The momo's are bi-amped off the 500.4 and its an active network. What I plan on upgrading are the mono amp and the front comps. I might do the sub down the line once I get a chance to hear the upgraded setup.

A bit on the install locations. The stock locations on my ford, place the mids at the front of the door panel about 5" beloow the window. The tweets are in the sail panels. About 5" higher than the mids and 3-4" ahead of the mids. The top of the dash has this bg hump over the instrument panel and three smaller humps which are the ac vents. Will post pics this weekend.

I think the single biggest install related issue that I'm facing is reflection and cancellation. Based on the high install location for the mids, a fair bit of the mids output would be hitting the passenger and driver side windows. Frequencies from 800khz upwards would prob be bouncing around like crazy. While a bit of this range gets clxd, I also lose a ton of mid and sub bass.

I have been trying for some months to tune in some more at the lower end and a bit more clarity in the uppermids, but I never could get it to the point where I wanted it. Then one night, parked in the driveway, I heard the setup with the windows rolled down. Needless to say that it sounded like a totally different setup. Day and night is a fair comparison. Now with a bit of tweaking the differnce is even greater...lol

It's hot here 8 months out of 12. For 8 months, the temprature is over 35C, sorry 95F. For six of these 8 months the temprature is over 115F peaking at about. So listening either while driving or parked means windows up and ac on. It's now begining to cool down a bit. So now I drive around with the windows down. Even with the wind noise and the traffic whatevers left of the sound is still better than what I get with windows up.

Issue # 2. The stock speakers upfront were 5x7's. The opening on the door panel grill is also 5x7 and there's a 6.5" driver behind a 5x7 opening. I feel a fair bit of 50-100hz would be getting reflected back to the cone, thus major clxn's in this range. I'll illustrate this on the door panel when I take the pics. Cutting the grill would be one option but I want to see if there is a way of opening more holes on that damn grill. I want to leave the stock look for security reasons.

There are some other issues as well but those would be explained better with pics. Will have pics up sun morn your time.

Any inputs on above would be appreciated tks.

Ciao

cadenceclipse

oh yeah windows down major difference eh?

about amp 4get what car u have i think jeep which would probably b fine but if like economy car your already pushin like 700w which is probably max of most stock alternators. prob dont need much more than 4 or 500w specially wit that sub rite? doubling power i think would b more of difference than better comps. course u seem to have the ear and if ur talkin sr's than that would also b big imrovement. amp cheaper though huh..

arun1963

hey buddy thanks for responding. Disappointed a bit by the stony silence from others. Hope things pick up.

Yes windows down means less reflections and hence less cancellations. I drive a ford fiesta which is a sedan. The install issues I mentioned are just a few.

I'm nowhere close to getting 700watts. The stock altenator is rated at 65A. Which means my amps are not getting more than 35-40A. The amps would prob make rated power at 80A. I dont think the amps combined are putting out more than 400 watts. Figures are guesstimates. The stock electrical wiring between the battery and alt / ground is yet another story. I can't touch this end till 10/10 when the extended warranty expires.

Next, the sub is grossly underpowered. Hence I have less sub bass to begin with. When a chunk of tis gets clxd, the impact of the cancellation is much more. By putting in a bigger mono amp, I'll have more at this end to begin with and hence more left over after the cancellations. However a bigger amp means it would try and draw more amperes further straing and already overloaded altenator. Should I even be doing this? I dont know thats what I'm checking here.

The 6.5" driver behind a 5x7" opening may seem stupid and yes it is. The reason for not fixing this earlier is my utter incompetence in being able to use a drill without buggering up the panel. But yes this needs to be addressed.

Get this, the original installer who mounted the comps, has epoxyed the tweets in the sail panel.......how do I tackle this?

I need to address this crap before I go and buy equipment. I dont have the knowledge or capability to pull it off and I ain't getting much help.......

MacLeod

Your amps are drawing their power from your battery so theyre getting full juice so long as you battery is decent. Besides, its doubtful youre using more than half your max fuse rating anyway. Just make sure youve got the beefiest battery in there you can find.

From a strict sound quality perspective you may not need any more power to your sub. 200 watts to a quality 12 should give you pretty decent MUSICAL bass. Now if youre wanting good hard impact you will need a little more wattage. One trick could be to downfire the sub so it loads off the floor which will increase the output. If youve build up your doors sufficiently enough with plenty of Dynamat and such, you should be able to play those mids down to at least 50 and probably 40 and with the 500.4 bi-amped that should be plenty of power to get some good midbass.

A higher output alternator isnt a bad idea as 65 amps is pretty puny but a bigger alternator will draw more HP from the engine.

cadenceclipse

patience arun..what if he piked up a biger sub like an SR, Mac, u still say 200w or so for SQ??

arun1963

Tks Mac,

Yes the amps are connected to the battery. Just goes to show how ignorant and incompetent I am at this end. Bear with me.

The battery is stock and 2 yrs old. That would be a quick upgrade so will do it first.

WRT the sub, no I dont want chest thumping bass. I just want the sub for presence. I want the extension from lowest note to the highest note to be balanced. One cohesive sound. The sub bass should just be a natural extension of the lower mids. Thats it.

Due to cancellations I cant achieve this with the windows rolled up. But with the windows down I have it exactly where I want it. I don't know what to do. Will post pics tmrw.

Will try the sub down firing as you suggested and revert. The doors are dynamated. Although how well I guess will be known tmrw. I cross my sub/mid at either 50 or 63hz. It starts to get a bit thin at 50hz though. Again this could be an install issue.

I would really appreciate your help on managing reflections. Can't wait to take and post the pics....

The altenator and big 3 bit will have to wait for a year. I'd gladly give up some HP to have the electricals better managed.

MacLeod

Try swapping the polarity of the sub as well as the downfiring. Also try different locations for the sub. Corners usually work best.

arun1963

got the pics...........

arun1963

some more......

arun1963

some feeble half **** attempt at reflection mgt......trying to block the first reflection point....

arun1963

the boot......

arun1963

what its all about.....

arun1963

help required on:

1. How do I reduce reflections and cancellations? What are some of the obvious points based on the pics? p.s. dont miss my half **** attempt at using dynazorb.....

2. Diff between windows up and down is night and day. If I can resolve this, I'd be pleased s punch.

3. Do I need to open out more holes on the grille?

4. Is the sub box too small. It measures about 0.8cuft. But it looks tiny.

5. When I change my comps, how do I remove the tweets? damn things are epoxyed on the sail panels. Installer tells me they can be removed with a heat gun. I aint letting him touch this till confirmed here.

6. Is the dynamatting of doors ok?

7. Any other obvious mistake that I have missed?

tks a ton in advance.

MacLeod

arun1963 wrote: »

help required on:

1. How do I reduce reflections and cancellations? What are some of the obvious points based on the pics? p.s. dont miss my half **** attempt at using dynazorb.....

Use foam and carpet strategically placed to reduce reflection.

2. Diff between windows up and down is night and day. If I can resolve this, I'd be pleased s punch.

Thats the way it always is and always will be. Nothing you can do about it.

3. Do I need to open out more holes on the grille?

Idealy you wouldnt have a grill at all for best SQ but unfortunately you need to protect your speakers so theyre a necessary evil. The more open the grill the better tho.

4. Is the sub box too small. It measures about 0.8cuft. But it looks tiny.

Thats the recommended spec for the MM 12 so its ok.

5. When I change my comps, how do I remove the tweets? damn things are epoxyed on the sail panels. Installer tells me they can be removed with a heat gun. I aint letting him touch this till confirmed here.

Sounds right. The heat gun loosens up the epoxy making it more liquid so they can be removed and cleaned.

6. Is the dynamatting of doors ok?

Looks ok. You can never have too much.

cadenceclipse

"big 3 has to wait" think u may want 2 tackle that now..why wait, costs couple bucks..

nice pics, beautiful family, need new tunes??

so whats ur next purchase? bsides wires..components?

Mac, can u explain furthr about what u said about 200w being enough? is there a formula or percentage or such. say u have a 750wrms sub, guess u'd say more power then, even for strict musical bass/sq..it sounds right, seems to make sense but i know i also thought having more power was better as far as like umm headroom, and like pushing sub to its potential, maybe les strain on amp, drawing a blank..any info greatly appreciated, hope i'm not jackn arun, figured u mite b ntrestd also..

arun1963

MacLeod wrote: »

Use foam and carpet strategically placed to reduce reflection.

The catch is what are those strategic area's? If you could highlight a couple at lleast that would give me a starting point. I know this will vary based on car interiors and install, but I'm hoping that the install pics will enable you to highlight a couple to start with.

Thats the way it always is and always will be. Nothing you can do about it.

Ok. Just curious, in competition is it windows up or down?

Idealy you wouldnt have a grill at all for best SQ but unfortunately you need to protect your speakers so theyre a necessary evil. The more open the grill the better tho.

Tks. Yeah this is something I can do right away.



Sounds right. The heat gun loosens up the epoxy making it more liquid so they can be removed and cleaned.

Ok another point clarified.

Looks ok. You can never have too much.

Endless pit.....lol :rolleyes:

Just one more issue on the sub setup. As I mentioned I'm not looking for chest thumping bass, but I do want the sub presence that I get with the windows down. If I put in a bigger mono amp will I have this presence (windows up) after accounting for the cancellations?

as always tks for your help.

arun1963

cadenceclipse wrote: »

"big 3 has to wait" think u may want 2 tackle that now..why wait, costs couple bucks..

I would lose my extended warranty if I touched any of the electricals

nice pics, beautiful family, need new tunes??

Tks. yeah the family and the music is what it's all about. Yeah the music is a bit old, like me

so whats ur next purchase? bsides wires..components?

Yeah looking at upgrading the momo's to either the sr's or the hertz mille's. Topic for next weekends discussion.

A bit OT, but I'll stick my neck out on this, even though its not my beef. CP is like a second home for me and the regulars here (you included) are like family. It makes me uncomfortable when there's friction between the folks here. C'mon man, fact is that guys like mac, cody, john are light years ahead of us.

So even if I had a strong opininon about anything and one of these guys contradicted/corrected me, I'd listen to them. Partly because they have greater knowledge and partly because they are unbiased. Trust me, thats a rare combination in the real world. nuff said. Like I said its ot and you're free to ignore it.

MacLeod

The "strategic area" really depends. It depends on where your speakers are located, the shape of your interior and so on. The problem areas in my beloved Accord may not be the same problems in your car. Best thing to do is buy a lot of foam, carpet and such and play with it in different spots.

Dashmats are great tools for combating reflections as the big, flat, hard plastic dash right below the big, flat, hard glass windshield is almost always a problem. A Dashmat, especially the Signature Series, helps this a ton and doesnt make your car look all ghetto.

arun1963

Tks. Sorry for the delayed response am on the road since the 10th and wont be home till tmrw. Missing my baby and music like mad....lol.

Sad part is we dont get the dashmats here so will have to try an figure out a way to use carpet on the top of the dash and the underside where the mids are. Tks a ton for your help bro.

arun1963

Started doing some mods last weekend.

For a start, changed the battery to a heavy duty premium brand. Took Mac's advise and drilled some more holes in the door grille. Nutshell, I got an instant jump in the 50-200hz range and better clarity 200hz onwards. Oh and I'll have to eventually cut the panel grill and use the speakers grills. The smallest bit the installer had for his drill, made holes larger than the stock ones. My record for **** up installs one way or another stays perfect. Will cut the grills when I upgrade the comps.

Use foam and carpet strategically placed to reduce reflection.

Dashmats are great tools for combating reflections as the big, flat, hard plastic dash right below the big, flat, hard glass windshield is almost always a problem.

I needed a ref point for the sound sans cancellation. If not totally 'sans cancellations', at least to the point where the issue is contained. So as an experiment I took this big beach towel with a thick pile and covered the dash completely. Ok, a bit ghetto but it was an experiment......

I suddenly had a ton more in the sub bass-200hz range. To the point, where I had to add more to the upper mids and highs to get some balance. I had to add more to the 3khz-20khz range. My tweet gains went from -5/-4 l/r to -3 for both sides. Last but not least, I was finally rid of the 'aaahhhh' syndrome. Singers like Sarah Mclachlan, Immogen Heap etc who regularly hit the high notes sound clean as a whistle.

It still sounds better with the windows down, but the gap between windows up and down is now much less. It's no longer day and night. (BTW day and night now has a new ref point.) While the highs are a bit clearer with the windows down, the lower end is now better with the windows up. The imaging is much better. It's like someone tweaked the focus on a dslr and what youre seeing is now much clearer. This is just amazing.

So here's the plan. I went to this shop that makes custom made upholstery for seats etc and identified 2 fabrics that may work. One is a thin fabric the feels like wet chamois and the other is a velour type of fabric. I bought 10yds in each. At work we have guys who make patterns for the garments we make. I've got one of them working on making a pattern of the dash. I figure its going to take a few attempts to get the pattern and material right. Once the pattern is set, I'll have to go to the installer and get him to pull out the dash and then fix the diy dashmat....

arun1963

One thing I forgot to mention in the post above. 200watts rms is plenty power for my sub, once reflections are managed a bit . Tks man, you saved me some serious $$ that I would have put down on another mono.

I wanted to take care of these issues before I installed the new comps. I figured it would let me enjoy them better and quicker. Also like a mark of respect for the quality they would bring. I owed them a half decent environment to perform in. I figure that I should have the dashmat done by end of the month. So I'll probably pull the trigger on the comps just after.

The problem is that, I'm stuck between choice of speaker. I'm down to 2 and I can't decide. I'm stuck between the sr's and the mille mlk2. Both are tremendous speakers. I heard both before I sorted out the install issues. Hence I have to remember that once installed, they will both sound much better.

I guess different folks would focus in on different aspects of sound. That would be the core of the sound they like. For me it's balance. Sound that is balanced, transparent and lifelike is what I aim for while tuning. Tonality is critical. Both the sr's and mille's come up trumps on this.

The mille's are about $500 more than the sr's out here. These two and the morel elates were the pick of the lot I heard. The elates are around the same price as the mille's. In the price range similar to the sr's nothing came even remotely close. The elates are not in the final shortlist because to run them well, I would need to upgrade my 4ch amp to something that puts out 150-180wpc. That would put this upgrade beyond my reach. In terms of sound quality the elates were amazing. Perhaps the pick of the lot. I really wanted to hear the scans, but couldnt find anyone who carries them here.

Input from you'll that would help in my decision making would be greatly appreciated. Tks a ton in advance.

arun1963

80+ views not one response......did I say something wrong?

cadenceclipse

what'd i say..?

patience man!

SRs. sheesh, $500, get yoself a dqxs and say foget abat it..!

MacLeod

Dude, nobody can tell you what speakers youll think will sound best. Listen to them both and buy the ones you like best.

arun1963

I know that bro. Thing is I heard both sets. Problem was that I had each set, for like half a day. I knew that it would take me a while to tune each set to see what worked best. So I probably would'nt be left with enough time to really listen. For what its worth, this is what I came up with after listening to them.

I first defined what I wanted. Balanced, transparent and lifelike sound coupled with great tonality and detailed imaging.

Hence I figured I was looking at comps that had a pacy and dynamic mid as a start. A tight, snappy midbass. Both the sr's and the milles are snappy and tight. The sr mid has a bit more umph factor though.

Upper mids 2-4khz should be balanced with the sound below 2khz. They should be sweet and warm. If they are not, then ones first reaction is 'the tweeters are too bright'. The milles have a slight edge here. Slight or maybe I didnt have enough time with the sr's.

The highs, 5khz upwards should be smooth detailed and transparent. The sr tweet takes some work here, but once dialed in wins here. For a metal tweet the mille tweet is fairly tame. It was a bit of a surprise.

For tonality and imaging both sets did really well. Maybe the milles get the slight edge in tonality.

If could have had them for while longer, I guess I could take a call. As things stand tho....... sums it up.

arun1963

and then my mind tells me 'you're overthinking'. Get the sr's and save $500.

Jstas

OK, I'm thinkin' you have a Focus there but I'm not 100% sure.

However, there are plenty of U.S. companies that can fit a right hand drive car with stuff. If you want a carpeted dash cover, check out JC Whitney:

http://www.jcwhitney.com/jcwhitney/category.jcw?nval=1101013183&statenval=200000620+2009&shopid=100001&categorytype=customuniversal

Call them up, they are usually have a pretty wide range of Customer Service areas and they do ship internationally and limited only where FedEx does not have a presence. It's worth a call to get a dashmat, especially since they are fairly inexpensive and with the current exchange rate, it could end up being favorable for you.

MacLeod

Trust your OWN ears my young padawan. What sounds good to me might not be what sounds good to you.

If you just cant decide, get the SR's. Theyve worked pretty good for me over the last 4 years.

arun1963

I'm overwhelmed and touched. Corny as it may sound, this post is straight from the heart.

Sal : Thanks for the encouragement. Your post was a pleasant surprise. I guess it does take a village to raise a child. I hope your catscan goes well tmrw. Good luck.

John : Your post was a blessing in disguise. How did you know, that the diy dashmat experiment was going down the tubes? Will be calling Whitneys later tonight. I figure about $45 for the dashmat and another $80 for fedex. Part of the $ 500 saved is put to good use.

Mac : Nice to know that I've earned my first stripe and moved up from a youngling to a padawan. Having a Jedi Master around helps a bit.

I was wondering why you were'nt responding. That's when I sent the pm. Then I wrote the posts comparing the sr's and the milles. I came back and read the post after a while and three things struck me. One after the other.

1. That you were'nt responding cause it has to be my decision.
2. That you trusted me to make the right decision, even when I wasnt sure.
3. If the sr's are within 0.2 points of scans, I'm just overthinking and being stupid.

You're an amazing teacher. BTW does being a padawan mean I have to grow my hair and wear a braid down the right side of my head? :eek:

I'm sure you guys have heard this a few times, but I'll say it again. Its guys like you'll who make CP such a great place to hang out, learn and make friends.

Oh and BTW called the dealer and placed the order for the sr's today. They will be delivered on saturday or monday latest. I hope I get them on sat so that I can get them installed on sunday. Till then I'm bouncing off the walls in excitement.

Jstas

arun1963 wrote: »

John : Your post was a blessing in disguise. How did you know, that the diy dashmat experiment was going down the tubes? Will be calling Whitneys later tonight. I figure about $45 for the dashmat and another $80 for fedex. Part of the $ 500 saved is put to good use.

You stated it in another post in this thread.

That's how I knew. Unlike many other people on the Internet in general, not just here, I actually read and, get this, it's a novel idea, I actually comprehend the post I just read! Then I offer insight, guidance or help that I can based on what I just read.

I find it preferable to having the typical knee-jerk reaction after a slight skimming of the post looking for keywords I can get incensed about and then mock the post like a mentally deficient child.


Anyway, give J.C. Whitney a ring. They should be able to help. If not, we'll find a mail order company in Australia that can help out since they all drive on the wrong side of the road too.

MacLeod

arun1963 wrote: »

does being a padawan mean I have to grow my hair and wear a braid down the right side of my head? :eek:

Yes.

Look for the Signature Series Dashmat. Theyre a little thicker and work better at reducing reflections than the standard Dashmat.