Will an external DAC be useful in my case?

mekatoka

I am planning on setting a dedicated 2 CH listening room in the next 5-6 months and am researching on this. I currently have the following equipment

Polk LSi25 Speakers
Emotiva XPA-3 Amp
Onkyo TX-SR805
Sonos system

I run my audio like this ..... Sonos --> Onkyo (AVR) --> Emotiva (amp) --> Polk speakers

I am well aware that my AVR has the excellent Burr-Brown DAC. If I am willing to spent about 6-800$ can I get any upgrade in my sound if I buy an external DAC? If so, what are you some of the recommendations?

Looks like Peachtree Decca would be a good unit but read in the threads that its amp section is weak. I am also aware that they are planning on releasing a DAC only version in early 2010.

Thanks
Mekatoka

dudeinaroom

If you have 6-800 to spend I would ditch the Onkyo and go with a dedicated pre. Then move on from that point. If you get rid of the Onkyo and add it to what you are planning on spending you should be able to get a decent preamp, tuner, and DAC

mekatoka

I currently have a full LSi set (25, FX and C) for my home theater in my living room. In about 4-5 months I plan on setting up the dedicated 2 CH listening room. So, I was thinking about pulling out LSi25 for 2 CH duty and replacing them with LSi9 in the living room (home theater)

So, Onkyo will stay there. But for now the idea is to research and come up with a short list and possibly do some in home risk free trials to come to conclusion.

I do not have to spend 6-800$, if I can spend less and improve sound I would like that

heiney9

Yes, the DAC's in your Onkyo are mediocre. Just because it says Burr Brown doesn't mean they are excellent. It all has to do with how they are implemented. Any AVR dac is mediocre compared to a good stand alone in that price range.

YMMV

H9

mekatoka

heiney9 wrote: »

Yes, the DAC's in your Onkyo are mediocre. Just because it says Burr Brown doesn't mean they are excellent.

Thanks I am not saying that the DAC's in Onkyo are the best. Hence this post.

I am trying to understand a few things here. It looks like using an external DAC with an AVR by bypassing the DAC is not preferred. Why is it so? Can someone explain it to me please?

BlueFox

I suspect a good external DAC is best for any situation, unless you have a $20,000 CD player, which then will probably have a decent internal DAC.

Like everything else, you get what you pay for. For less than $600 consider the Cambridge-Audio Dacmagic. I would add $1400 more to your budget, and get the Bryston BDA-1 DAC for $1999 list. I upgraded fom the BenchMark DAC1 to the Bryston and love it. Of course, if you get a DAC you will need a decent SPDIF cable, and that is another $400-$2000 dollars, minimum. And, it just occured to me you will need good analog interconnects between the DAC and AVR. More dinero.

The external DAC will provide an analog input to the AVR on one of the analog inputs, then it should be untouched, except for volume level, and then output to the external AMP.

lanion

If you could use an external DAC with a gain control and just not use the Onkyo for your 2 channel that would be ideal in your case.

AndyGwis

I've used quite a few stand alone DACs and been happy with their performance even over expensive CD players. I have an older, but reputable standalone DAC you could try out for well under your budget, a Theta Pro Progeny. Probably a nice upgrade for only a couple/few hundred bucks.

If you don't like it or decide you'd like to see what something more expensive can provide, you can always sell it down the road.

PM me if interested and we can chat

vc69

The amp is still going to do some processing depending on your setting. Anything other than a "direct" mode will convert the incoming 2ch analog signal out of your external DAC back into digital for processing (Audyssey, etc). Direct mode should bypass that conversion.

My opinion is that you have a nice AVR for home theater. 2 channel is a different animal entirely to me. Build it out separately with a nice source, preamp and amp. In whatever order you like. I started with a nice preamp and a cheap amp to get me by until I can save for something more suitable. Do yourself a favor and buy the best components you can afford. You will save in the long run. Cheap stuff sounds like it ought to, cheap.

Good luck and welcome to the dark side.;)

mekatoka

I appreciate your responses. One thing I do not understand is why do all the suggestions lead to spending 8-10K to get good 2 CH listening. Isn't there a middle ground ?

You see, I believe in taking small steps and slowly realizing and being able to tell the difference in these components. I just don't want to buy something because they are good. Now, following are a few advices I did like

(1) Start with separates and buy the best you can and slowly build on it
(2) Don't use AVR between DAC and Amp, so I need to buy DAC with gain control (so that I can control volume) and directly connect it to an amp?

Now (2) seems to warrant more money in expensive cables. Maybe that's why people buy integrated amps?

The problem with integrated amps is that its tough to find units where DAC and amp section are really good. If they are good, they are very expensive

vc69

vc69 wrote: »

Cheap stuff sounds like it ought to, cheap.

Good luck and welcome to the dark side.;)

Actually, there are probably exceptions to that statement, though I have not heard them myself.
Do your research and buy used. That is the best advice I can give.

fbm211

Shop around on audiogon.You can always find great deals.And if you dont like it you can always resell it for the price you paid.

BlueFox

mekatoka wrote: »

I appreciate your responses. One thing I do not understand is why do all the suggestions lead to spending 8-10K to get good 2 CH listening. Isn't there a middle ground ?

Actually, that is at the bottom end, barely entry level.

Jetmaker737

Mekatoka,

I have an Onk 805 feeding LSi 15's through an Emo RPA-2. I found the DAC in the 805 couldn't even match the one in my Oppo 980H, so I went analog out of the Oppo. I've now picked up a Jolida JD-100A with sovteks which naturally kicks butt on both. I like the 805 for 2-channel in Pure Audio or Direct mode. But then I don't have experience with a dedicated pre (yet!)

My point is you can definitely do better than the 805 DAC and you will be pleased with the results.

Jet

PSOVLSK

mekatoka wrote: »

I appreciate your responses. One thing I do not understand is why do all the suggestions lead to spending 8-10K to get good 2 CH listening. Isn't there a middle ground ?

I believe many people on this board will never even hear a 8-10K 2-channel rig much less own one. I think it's absurd to think you can't get quality sound for waaaay less than that. I have no doubt that those with the coin are listening to much higher quality sound than me, but that doesn't mean my system doesn't sound great to probably 99% of the population.

I think you are on your way to having a 2 channel rig and HT that you will really enjoy. Unfortunately, I'm not really helping answer any of your questions:o

Good Luck and enjoy

miner

Check the For Sale here. I recently upgraded my 2 CH pre/amp and they are for sale. Nice comb for $2K plus tons of current and power. Rotel RC-1082/RB-1092.

steveinaz

IMO, with your setup an external DAC would be a waste of money. Maybe down the road if/when you move up to seperates and a better source.

As an example, I have a Benchmark DAC/PRE which is considered by many to be one of the best DAC's out there. When compared to running my $600 CD player using its own DAC's, the differences are subtle; hearable, but subtle.

IMO, inexpensive DAC's are also a waste of time/money as nearly any modern CD player will perform every bit as well with their built-in DAC's. Put any cheap DAC/CD transport together, and I'll find a dedicated CD player that will be better, and likely for less money than the "cheap" combo.

External DAC's are not the silver bullet that they are hyped to be. Having said that, the better ones do typically have superior analog output stages, which is likely the improvement people are noticing most.

heiney9

Sorry Steve I have to disagree. A properly researched external DAC can be the silver bullet but it has to be used with other high quality gear in the chain. I have yet to hear a sub $1K cdp better my dac. Of course I haven't listened to every sub $1K cdp but so far my dac has been the piece that has stuck around. I'd have to spend upwards of $1K on a new dac to improve performance enough to make it worthwhile, IMO to replace my dac.

Sure an external dac isn;t going to instantly make a lower end rig magically a higher end rig, but it is an area that can improve rigs that are being held back by mediocre stand alone cdp's (mediocre in this case doesn't always mean cheaper players either).

I do agree that if the OP just adds an external dac to his current rig, it's money wasted because the system won;t have enough resolution to notice the difference's. An external dac should be close to final piece in the rig. The OP has other areas he can improve first.


As always YMMV and synergy is the KEY to nice sounding and performing rig. It takes time, energy and a certain amount of dedication to find the right synergy for your individual tastes. There is no one piece of gear fits all in this hobby. Experimentation is the key.

H9

steveinaz

My experience tells me different, we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue. Keep in mind though, when I say "inexpensive" I don't mean a good DAC bought at a discount price (used).

I absolutely agree with your statement "An external dac should be close to final piece in the rig." I'm a firm believer in having a good solid base system first, then **** around with higher-end cables, DAC's, etc.

Face

mekatoka, if you up your budget a little more you could look into a used Peachtree Nova. It has HT bypass, so you can take your receiver out of the chain for 2 channel listening.

The Onkyo's DAC section leaves a lot to be desired, but even with an external DAC, you're still degrading the signal by having it pass through the receiver.

malikarshad

This is my story and I'm not indicating that it will work for you but just to give you tips on how things turns out.

I had a similar LSi setup to yours few years ago with Denon AVR and Outlaw Amp. I had tried various things CDP (Denon 2900), Tube Preamp (Dared), Tube Amp(Cary Audio V12).
The CDP did not changed anything. Adding the Preamp did not change much. The Tube amp had a somewhat noticeable affect and I was happy for a while. But it was not exactly what I was looking for and it faded after a while.

Meanwhile I upgraded my AVR to separate preamp Integra DTC-9.8 (not for 2-Ch but for HDMI). Although a good AVR for HT I could not stand it for 2-ch channel. The hi end with brittle and low end was bloated. I researched a bit and was suggested to treat my room. So I bought GIK Acoustic panels to treat my room. That helped but not too much.

I thought it might be the DAC in the integra. So I bought Benchmark DAC-1 in the hopes of remedying the problem. To my surprise that did not change anything.
So I started researching again and on AVSForum I came across a thread buy a guy how was on a quest to find perfect speakers. For days I read through the thread and I got the upgrade bug to replace my speakers with Salk Song Towers. I really was not looking to upgrade my speakers and went over and over again to various forums to make sure this is the right choice. And finally one day I was on Salk forum and there were Song Towers available for immediate delivery. I placed the order without thinking, not knowing what to expect from this unheard speakers.
The speakers arrived and first thing I did was to play few tunes on LSi15. Then I played the same songs on Salks and boy I was amazed. The top to bottom was seamless and they had yet not broken in. I finally replaced most of my speakers with Salk Song series. Also the Salk customer service is excellent. I accidentally dropped my Surround Speakers and damaged it and Jim Salk replaced it for free (I only had to pay shipping).
Since this upgraded I'm listening to music more than I had anticipated. I've purchased more music CDs, upgraded my interconnects, tubes etc. Its getting better and better with each upgrade. BTW I listen to music via Logitech Squeezebox Duet and all my music files are FLAC encoded.

Someday I plan on trying an external DAC but for now I'm enjoying what I have.

Good luck with your search. I hope you find what you are looking for.

mekatoka

Thank everyone, your responses are very informative and helpful. Although, I have to say that I have been reading a lot on 2CH forums on various sites and gathered pretty much the same idea as you guys posted here. I am trying to sum it up in order of priority which will give me the best possible sound

-- Speakers are the MOST important part of the equation, go and buy the best you can afford
-- Source needs to be the best (Garbage In - Garbage Out)
-- Buy Separates
-- Room treatments
-- Electronics (such as priority for DAC etc)

I know I stated in my earlier posts in this thread BUT ...

-- I am not going to be able to work on room treatments atleast for 6-8 more months
-- I do not want to get new 2 CH speakers until I have the dedicated room set up and I got my LSi's just in Feb 09, I do want to use them for some time

Conclusion:
Since, I will not be updating anything in my system for the next few months ... I want to try out a few DAC's .... either taking advantage of risk free trials at home OR buying used gear on Audiogon or here. The problem with this is that the signal will be passing through AVR (Onkyo) and its not really a good thing.

Another thought I am contemplating on is to sell my Onkyo and buy a Pre .... in 6-800$ range. If I did that what would be a few good choices?

heiney9

malikarshad wrote: »

This is my story and I'm not indicating that it will work for you but just to give you tips on how things turns out.

I had a similar LSi setup to yours few years ago with Denon AVR and Outlaw Amp. I had tried various things CDP (Denon 2900), Tube Preamp (Dared), Tube Amp(Cary Audio V12).
The CDP did not changed anything. Adding the Preamp did not change much. The Tube amp had a somewhat noticeable affect and I was happy for a while. But it was not exactly what I was looking for and it faded after a while.

Meanwhile I upgraded my AVR to separate preamp Integra DTC-9.8 (not for 2-Ch but for HDMI). Although a good AVR for HT I could not stand it for 2-ch channel. The hi end with brittle and low end was bloated. I researched a bit and was suggested to treat my room. So I bought GIK Acoustic panels to treat my room. That helped but not too much.

I thought it might be the DAC in the integra. So I bought Benchmark DAC-1 in the hopes of remedying the problem. To my surprise that did not change anything.
So I started researching again and on AVSForum I came across a thread buy a guy how was on a quest to find perfect speakers. For days I read through the thread and I got the upgrade bug to replace my speakers with Salk Song Towers. I really was not looking to upgrade my speakers and went over and over again to various forums to make sure this is the right choice. And finally one day I was on Salk forum and there were Song Towers available for immediate delivery. I placed the order without thinking, not knowing what to expect from this unheard speakers.
The speakers arrived and first thing I did was to play few tunes on LSi15. Then I played the same songs on Salks and boy I was amazed. The top to bottom was seamless and they had yet not broken in. I finally replaced most of my speakers with Salk Song series. Also the Salk customer service is excellent. I accidentally dropped my Surround Speakers and damaged it and Jim Salk replaced it for free (I only had to pay shipping).
Since this upgraded I'm listening to music more than I had anticipated. I've purchased more music CDs, upgraded my interconnects, tubes etc. Its getting better and better with each upgrade. BTW I listen to music via Logitech Squeezebox Duet and all my music files are FLAC encoded.

Someday I plan on trying an external DAC but for now I'm enjoying what I have.

Good luck with your search. I hope you find what you are looking for.

Very odd............I have had the exact opposite experience. Each outboard dac I've tried has improved things greatly. The Dared tubed pre I added has improved things beyond it's price point and is excellent, but I will add that I have rolled some top $$$ tubes into it and that has given huge improvements. If one just used the el-cheapo Chinese tubes shipped with the unit...............then I could see it doing very little to improve a system.

YMMV

H9

malikarshad

heiney9 wrote: »

If one just used the el-cheapo Chinese tubes shipped with the unit...............then I could see it doing very little to improve a system.
H9

Yes you're right the chinese tube were very noise and brittle sounding I'd replaced them with Mullards but that did not have any difference.

heiney9

I've been told by a few owners that the Mullards aren't that great in the Dared. I have a couple pairs of Mullards (older, not reissue). The best tubes in the Dared so far are 50's Raytheon blk plates, 60's Telefunken and 50's Valvo Hamburg. The rectifier tube also has a huge influence on the final sound. I have several but a 1940's UK Mullard so far is the best.

But those are the kinds of things you deal with when using tubes.............many combo's and varieties and they all sound different and then add to that everyone's tastes and variety of gear and..................well you get the picture.

The absolute best combo for the Dared so far are the 1963 Telefunken ECC801S and 1940 Mullard 5Z4G rectifier. Drop dead excellent sound!!!

Sorry for the minor thread jack .

Hope the OP finds what floats their boat.

H9

LuSh

mekatoka:

I rarely post on this forum anymore but reading your thread has inspired me to write a blurb...you can take all the information you've collected with a grain of salt but I have some ideas which are different and I personally think will help you in the long run.

Based on what you have you might consider this approach:

Speakers are the most important factor because they have to factor into a rooms acoustics...having said that; money isn't always the answer and 9 times out of 10 if you invest your money into front end components you'll end up with better sound. Many MANY people spend all their money on the wrong speakers for the wrong room. Keep that in mind.

Have you considered an integrated amplifier? One with home theatre by-pass perhaps. A number of options exist which can facilitate both Home Theatre and two channel listening. I would strongly recommend looking at options from Krell, Bryston, Plinius and SimAudio and sell your amplifier and keep the Onkyo. The integrated amplifiers from the companies mentioned can provide you with excellent two channel reproduction and then act as power amplifier and utilize the Onkyo as a pre/pro when watching movies. I use this setup myself and it's great. The LSi25's require some heft so consider the Bryston BST100 used or a Krell 400xi or even a SimAudio I-3 if your room isn't very large and you don't listen at constant reference levels.

The eternal question of the DAC. I think a DAC is a great option if you wish to incorporate a PC or MAC and stream music via USB, SPDIFF or wireless. There are two important factors you must consider when looking at DAC's...you will need additional wiring. I highly recommend a Stereovox XV2 connection which is cheap enough and can outperform many cables on the market. You will also need a transport. Even manufacture claims that jitter can be reduced and a transport isn't as important have been proven wrong by my ears. I use a Benchmark...it's decent enough but highly overrated and can sound clinical. If I were you and starting out with a DAC I would find a used reference DAC from the 90's with a superior analog and power stage and build around it. My old favorite being a Museatex Bitstream or consider an older Levinson or even a cheap musical DAC from CAL Audio.

You could also pickup a used single box CD player from any handful of 'high-end' designers which would stand out quite nicely...

Hope that helps...if I were you I'd stay away from separate components and try to maximize your sound by picking your spots and spending the money where it will count. The integrated amplifier will be a huge boost and will likely out perform any multi channel pre you're looking at.

fbm211

The adcom GDA-600 DAC is a giant killer.And you can find them for around 150.00.(used)

D.Invax

My general rule of thumb is... If I dont know what it is I probably dont need it. However in your case you do. Thats what you will plug your 4 channel amp into the first two. the third would be for an amp to power a sub.

There are plenty of ways to mount the speakers, the question is are you willing to sacrifice/replace stock interior pieces to do so.

tonyb

fbm211 wrote: »

The adcom GDA-600 DAC is a giant killer.And you can find them for around 150.00.(used)

Be carefull of that "giant killer" verbage my friend. A slippery slope indeed.

danz1906

mekatoka wrote: »

Thank everyone, your responses are very informative and helpful. Although, I have to say that I have been reading a lot on 2CH forums on various sites and gathered pretty much the same idea as you guys posted here. I am trying to sum it up in order of priority which will give me the best possible sound

-- Speakers are the MOST important part of the equation, go and buy the best you can afford
-- Source needs to be the best (Garbage In - Garbage Out)
-- Buy Separates
-- Room treatments
-- Electronics (such as priority for DAC etc)

I know I stated in my earlier posts in this thread BUT ...

-- I am not going to be able to work on room treatments atleast for 6-8 more months
-- I do not want to get new 2 CH speakers until I have the dedicated room set up and I got my LSi's just in Feb 09, I do want to use them for some time

Conclusion:
Since, I will not be updating anything in my system for the next few months ... I want to try out a few DAC's .... either taking advantage of risk free trials at home OR buying used gear on Audiogon or here. The problem with this is that the signal will be passing through AVR (Onkyo) and its not really a good thing.

Another thought I am contemplating on is to sell my Onkyo and buy a Pre .... in 6-800$ range. If I did that what would be a few good choices?

Welcome to the Club!
Hearing the Dacs in your own system at home is the best way to see
if they will make a Difference. Try Audiogon for used Dac!