2.3TL How much power needed?

jim 249
jim 249 Posts: 347
edited November 2009 in Vintage Speakers
I have a set of 2.3TL'S that I bought used and have listened to them for about two weeks now. They are being driven by a Nakamichi PA-5II amp with 150 watts rms power per channel. They are working properly. The sound is good but not as great as what I have read here on the forums. They will take up to 750 watts from what I have read on the net. Do I need more power to drive them right? My old RSL's have a cleaner sound than the Polks.
Post edited by jim 249 on
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Comments

  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited November 2009
    Not really, you're fine. Don't get caught up in the hype....that's a nice amp.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
  • zarrdoss
    zarrdoss Posts: 2,562
    edited November 2009
    Is it a common ground amp? what is the rest of your rig consist of?
  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited November 2009
    He's using it now Zarrdoss....
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
  • leroyjr1
    leroyjr1 Posts: 8,785
    edited November 2009
    Doesn't hurt to try more power.
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,833
    edited November 2009
    Maybe it's not the amp. What's your source?
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • zarrdoss
    zarrdoss Posts: 2,562
    edited November 2009
    dorokusai wrote: »
    He's using it now Zarrdoss....

    ???????
  • jim 249
    jim 249 Posts: 347
    edited November 2009
    My set up is; Adcom GTP-500 preamp, Parasound CD/P 1000 cd player, Nakamichi amp and the 2.3TL's. It is a common ground amp.
  • zarrdoss
    zarrdoss Posts: 2,562
    edited November 2009
    jim 249 wrote: »
    My set up is; Adcom GTP-500 preamp, Parasound CD/P 1000 cd player, Nakamichi amp and the 2.3TL's. It is a common ground amp.

    wow, maybe room placement?
  • leroyjr1
    leroyjr1 Posts: 8,785
    edited November 2009
    jim 249 wrote: »
    My set up is; Adcom GTP-500 preamp, Parasound CD/P 1000 cd player, Nakamichi amp and the 2.3TL's. It is a common ground amp.

    You should try a different Pre amp
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,221
    edited November 2009
    Definitely try a different pre. The Nak PA5II is a very nice and capable amp. It is common ground. How are your SDA's set-up in your listening room?

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • jim 249
    jim 249 Posts: 347
    edited November 2009
    My SDA's are in a room that is 12' by 24' with the speakers on one end of the room. One thing I have noticed is that it depends on what cd is being played where the sweet spot is. I have to move my chair forwards or backwords to find that sweet spot. I know this is not the ideal setup for the speakers, but they seem to be not so clear with a normal soundstage.
  • kawizx9r
    kawizx9r Posts: 5,150
    edited November 2009
    dorokusai wrote: »
    He's using it now Zarrdoss....
    zarrdoss wrote: »
    ???????

    What he meant to say zarrdoss is that it's pretty much a sure thing it's common ground considering how long he's had it and how long he's had the speakers connected/playing through the amp.

    Jim, I don't own a pair of 2.3's but when I owned my SDA 1C's I found it ideal to be anywhere from 8 to 10 feet away if the speakers were around 6 to 8 feet apart from each other....a good 6 to 12 inches away from the back walls with room on the sides between the side walls.

    Pull forward or set back the speakers for more or less bass, and make sure they're NOT toed in. Hope that helps although others with much more experience and an easier way of explaining things will chime in!
    Truck setup
    Alpine 9856
    Phoenix Gold RSD65CS

    For Sale
    Polk SR6500
    Polk SR5250
    Polk SR104


    heiney9 wrote: »
    Any clue how to use the internet? Found it in about 10 sec.
  • jim 249
    jim 249 Posts: 347
    edited November 2009
    Thanks for all your help. What kind of pre amp would you recomend? Not something that is too spendy though.
  • leroyjr1
    leroyjr1 Posts: 8,785
    edited November 2009
    jim 249 wrote: »
    Thanks for all your help. What kind of pre amp would you recomend? Not something that is too spendy though.

    How much would you be willing to spend?
  • kawizx9r
    kawizx9r Posts: 5,150
    edited November 2009
    Here's a GFP 715 if you want to stick with Adcom - http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90700

    Here's my entry-level tubed pre - http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90661

    and a white-faced Adcom 555mk II - http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90638

    Like Lee asked, how much are you willing to spend and what are you looking for really?

    Of course, no one says you have to purchase one from here but it's what's going around right at this moment for on the budget.
    Truck setup
    Alpine 9856
    Phoenix Gold RSD65CS

    For Sale
    Polk SR6500
    Polk SR5250
    Polk SR104


    heiney9 wrote: »
    Any clue how to use the internet? Found it in about 10 sec.
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,221
    edited November 2009
    The 555mk II won;t be any better than what he already has. The 715 would be a nice pre on the cheap.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • kawizx9r
    kawizx9r Posts: 5,150
    edited November 2009
    heiney9 wrote: »
    The 555mk II won;t be any better than what he already has. The 715 would be a nice pre on the cheap.

    Thanks for that heiney, I was going to post the other adcom pre but I noticed it was model #'s below what he has. Wasn't sure about the 555.
    Truck setup
    Alpine 9856
    Phoenix Gold RSD65CS

    For Sale
    Polk SR6500
    Polk SR5250
    Polk SR104


    heiney9 wrote: »
    Any clue how to use the internet? Found it in about 10 sec.
  • jim 249
    jim 249 Posts: 347
    edited November 2009
    I really don't know right now how much to spend. I picked up the Adcom for $80.00 off of CL. I need to do some looking on the net to know what I really need. We just had a cold front that came through a week ago and did about $1200.00 in damage to my house so it might be a couple of months before I can afford to upgrade.
  • erniejade
    erniejade Posts: 6,321
    edited November 2009
    Speaker placement on the 2.3's is a big thing. When I got mine, I thought my JBL L150's killed the 2.3's but, after trying different places in the room, they now sound better then the JBL's I had. For me, it was 4 or 5 " away from the back wall, ( remember they came with wall brackets! ) and 3' in from the corner on the short wall of the room. Your amp is fine.

    The only other thing I did to dial the sound that I like in was a tube preamp. I was running a adcom 565 preamp with great results but, there is no substitute for tubes.
    Klipsch The Nines, Audioquest Thunderbird Interconnect, Innuos Zen MK3 W4S recovery, Revolution Audio Labs USB & Ethernet, Border Patrol SE-I, Audioquest Niagara 5000 & Thunder, Cullen Crossover II PC's.
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,833
    edited November 2009
    My SDA's are in a room that is 12' by 24' with the speakers on one end of the room.

    Nope, not going to work. You need to put them on the long wall.

    I would also suggest you play around with the placement before doing anything else. When you get them dialed in, you'll know it and can proceed from there with replacing the weak links.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • Tony M
    Tony M Posts: 11,206
    edited November 2009
    Is the Polk interconnect cable hooked up and does it have tight connections at the speakers?

    My sockets were worn out and needed to be replaced.

    The sound improved dramatically with the new ones.
    Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them.
  • rocket
    rocket Posts: 71
    edited November 2009
    that may be enough power for you, but when i listen, i like it louder, and that requires more power. i was listening to the new trans siberian orchestra last nite, and was hitting peaks of about 190 a channel. this is a little loud for some, but man, it puts me there!! i run 400 wpc.
  • flason
    flason Posts: 278
    edited November 2009
    My 220 WPC Onkyo M508 seems like more than enough power though I have to replace the poly switches. One you start peaking over 75 watts or so, the tweets cut out. I was using my Mac 2205 but the Onkyo seems a little heaftier. Also using the original 2.3 and not the TL's.
  • rocket
    rocket Posts: 71
    edited November 2009
    eliminate the polys altogether-just dont go to crazy on volume, have never had a problem yet without mine, and i have put lots to them! once you hear any distortion, back down.(I have not had any yet, polks are a very good speaker, especially after modding.) is your mac an older version?
  • flason
    flason Posts: 278
    edited November 2009
    I believe the MC2205 is from the 80's. Not sure the exact date. It is sweet but I really like my M508\P308 combo a whole lot.
  • Schurkey
    Schurkey Posts: 2,105
    edited November 2009
    zarrdoss wrote: »
    wow, maybe room placement?
    jim 249 wrote: »
    My SDA's are in a room that is 12' by 24' with the speakers on one end of the room.
    These two posts pretty much say it all.

    A 12 X 24 room is a disaster for standing waves. Add in (guesstimate) an 8' ceiling, and you'd have a "perfect storm" of dimensions. 24 is a multiple of both 8 and 12; the standing waves would be incredible. Put the listening position in a null area--and you'll have NO bass no matter what you do. If the listening position is in an area of peak response, it'll boom like crazy.

    The best you could hope for is to optimize the speaker placement and listening position; and then add some room treatment and careful equalization to kill the peaks.

    Nearfield listening is your best bet; and then you have problems with getting those multiple drivers of the 2.3 to integrate.

    The basic dimensions of the room are working against you.
    rocket wrote: »
    that may be enough power for you, but when i listen, i like it louder, and that requires more power. i was listening to the new trans siberian orchestra last nite, and was hitting peaks of about 190 a channel. this is a little loud for some, but man, it puts me there!! i run 400 wpc.

    And that's the other thing. "More Power" is too often equated with "Better Sound" and that's just not true.

    Short story:
    If you need it LOUDER, you might need a more powerful amp. If you need it to sound "BETTER", more power is only going to help if you're overdriving the amp you have.




    PROVIDED that your amp has enough current capacity to drive the speaker and cable load, (and this is a realistic concern especially in an era of Communist Chinese mass-market dreck amplifiers) more power will get you NOTHING except louder volume levels--and if it's loud enough for you as-is, more power is a waste of money.

    The power demanded by the speakers is a combination of volts + amps. Volts more-or-less equates to volume level. More volume = more volts required.

    The voltage will drive a certain amount of amps through the cables and speakers. More volts = more amps. The exact amount of amps will vary with the electrical characteristics of the speakers and cables--inductance, capacitance, and resistance/impedance. In general, a "4-ohm" rated amp should be just fine with Polk (typically 4- or 6- ohm nominal rating) speakers--especially if that amp is operated in the lower or middle range of its rated power.

    True enough, if you drive any amp hard enough that it can't provide the amps needed by the speaker/cable combination--the sound is going to suffer until you turn the volume down. I suppose there are terrible junk amps that just cannot deliver useful power into a Polk speaker system. I bet no-one here owns an amp that ****. Most other amps would be volume-dependent. They could deliver enough amps to satisfy at least a moderate volume (voltage) level--so--at moderate volume, they'll sound just fine.

    The end result is: if the system sounds good at low volume, but bad at high volume--perhaps you're overdriving the amp and you need a more powerful one. If the system sounds poor at low volume and at high volume--something ELSE is wrong, and more power isn't going to help.
  • rocket
    rocket Posts: 71
    edited November 2009
    i like a lot of water pressure when i wash my car-always does a good job
  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited November 2009
    More power. Just sayin...
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • Schurkey
    Schurkey Posts: 2,105
    edited November 2009
    rocket wrote: »
    i like a lot of water pressure when i wash my car-always does a good job
    Not a valid analogy if you're making the case for more amplifier power for a given volume level.

    Better analogy would be whether a 5000 psi-capable pressure washer does a better job of washing than a 3000 psi-capable pressure washer, IF you turn down the pressure of the 5K unit to match the 3K unit and if the **** size on the end of the wand is the same.

    If the pressure (voltage) and the volume (amperage) is adjusted so it's the same as the smaller pressure washer--having a bigger engine and pump really isn't going to change the way the thing washes.





    Pressure (voltage) is adjusted by the volume knob on the stereo, if you're comparing two amplifiers and you've matched volume levels, you've matched voltage output. If one of those amps has more power "in reserve" that's not being used--it isn't going to affect the sound quality until the volume goes up.
  • rocket
    rocket Posts: 71
    edited November 2009
    i know this-been an electrician 30 yrs. i know what works best for me