Biwiring Spkr's

spnplgr

Hope this doesn't sound like too dumb a question, but not sure about this, so thought the group could shed some light for me on this. Two questions really.

My setup to be is a NAD T-747 (coming this week), RTi8's front, CSi5 ctr, and FXi3's surround on my back wall. I haven't decided if I'm going to biwire yet or not. If I do, which speakers would you biwire. Just the two front's, or the front's and center, or all five. Also, I don't completely understand the set up for biwiring. I know for bi-amping you have two amp's, but not for biwiring. I just have the NAD T-747, and that's all I plan to get. This next part is where I'm confused some. I know you need four cables for the speaker, but I don't have four available connections for each speaker at my A/V rec. If you get a biwire cable with four cables, what do you do at the A/V end? Combine the two negative and the two positive to make just two cables? How do you get the benefit if that is the case if you end up with just the two connections at the amp end and four at the speaker end? Is this signal somehow split up by the draw from the speaker? Am I just missing something here, or is it a simple answer. Thanks for any help.

ben62670

Save your money and get a good set of standard speaker wires.

spnplgr

I'm seriously considering that to keep things simple and more economical. Thanks.

sTiLlLeArNiNg

If you want to try out bi-wiring without going broke get yourself some Canare 4s11, it is quite highly reccomended (even by many member's here) and is not to pricey at roughly $1.19 - $1.39 per foot

I ordered mine from here http://www.markertek.com/Cables-Connectors-Adapters/Bulk-Wire-Cable/Speaker-Wire-Cable-Bulk/Canare-Corporation-Of-America/4S11GRAY200M.xhtml and they price matched it for me so i got it at $1.19/ft If you go that route try to deal with Tom he is an awesome sale's rep

TECHNOKID

spnplgr wrote: »

I'm seriously considering that to keep things simple and more economical. Thanks.

If you are considering simple and economical, stay away from bi-wiring as it is useless. Yes bi-wiring is simply paralelling 2 pairs of wires from the same output and if you can picture the kind of circuit you are getting by doing such you will realize that the only difference between the straight single cable pair connection is simply basically doubling the distance between your high and mids (cable lenght which is somewhat insignificant in most cases and therefore will not achieve anything else but costing you twice the amount in cable). The idea behind bi-amping is to isolate the high and mids along with potential power gain if you are using powerfull enough amps. Bi-wiring doesn't achieve either one, if at least you were accomplishing high and mids seperation/isolation it could lead you to greater SQ but fact is you are not!

Cheers!
TK

anhchungdoan

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

If you want to try out bi-wiring without going broke get yourself some Canare 4s11, it is quite highly reccomended (even by many member's here) and is not to pricey at roughly $1.19 - $1.39 per foot

I ordered mine from here http://www.markertek.com/Cables-Connectors-Adapters/Bulk-Wire-Cable/Speaker-Wire-Cable-Bulk/Canare-Corporation-Of-America/4S11GRAY200M.xhtml and they price matched it for me so i got it at $1.19/ft If you go that route try to deal with Tom he is an awesome sale's rep

I thought the bi-wire stuff was only the hype for old generation from the 70s/80s.

Save yourself the money in bi-wire cables and buy a better Powercord or ICs if you are happy with your current speaker cables.

A simple straight wire will not alter the sound. If you do want to alter the sound as the "band-aids approach" to your liking ,there are plenty of speaker cables with modular box or battery type attached to the speaker cables itself.

Again, it's your ears and your money, the ultimate goal is find the type of cables that will provide the sound that will please your ears . Purist or Non-purist is pretty much subjective and so is Audio.:)

TECHNOKID

Save yourself the money in bi-wire cables and buy a better Powercord or ICs if you are happy with your current speaker cables.

:eek:

Could you please explain how powercord ICs will isolate your high and mid drivers signal from each other? what's the sense of suggesting he replaces a cheap bandaid with a high end bandaid which doesn't cover at all what he wants to achieve

tonyb

Back to the OP's question and in laymen's terms.....no,don't waist your coin on bi-wire cables.If that is all the gear you intend to get,a good set of single run cables will do just fine. Just for the record,a bi-wire set of cables will have two connections on one end for the receiver or amp,and four on the speaker side. Get some quality single run cables,and IC's and rock out.

anhchungdoan

TECHNOKID wrote: »

:eek:

Could you please explain how powercord ICs will isolate your high and mid drivers signal from each other? what's the sense of suggesting he replaces a cheap bandaid with a high end bandaid which doesn't cover at all what he wants to achieve

The title of the tread Help-Bi-wiring cables.

My answer is there is virtually no benefit from bi-wiring. Isolated or not isolated the hi-frq and low-frq from internal the cross-over of the speakers yield a minimum benefit or should I say politically " virtually" no benefit.

Band-aids approach is bands-aids approach. It does not matter low-end or hi-end. Straight signal is better than the signal which is altered by external device. He may as well buy an equalizer to boost up or cut down certain frq. Yes, one is ashamed of the tone control or the equalizer but in the essence , there is not much difference but just the different approach to manipulate the incoming signal.

Better cables, better Ics, better powercord will not degrade the sound of the equipment .

And again, as I said some folk like to color the sound some try not to. It's his money, he entitled to do whatever he wants.

Garbage-in, garbage out. Better designed CDP, better designed pre & amp will definitly produce b
etter sound than some lousy fly-by-night products.

sTiLlLeArNiNg

If you decide to do the "single run" thing make shure you yank the factory jumper bar and replace it with some speaker wire, you WILL hear a difference

steveinaz

ben62670 wrote: »

Save your money and get a good set of standard speaker wires.

^^agree 100%.

anhchungdoan

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

If you decide to do the "single run" thing make shure you yank the factory jumper bar and replace it with some speaker wire, you WILL hear a difference

Here we go, an experiment without breaking your bank account.

I would like to add another point and I will shut the hell up so I would not offend anyone. If I did , my apology.

Cables, Ics, Power Cords will not improve the sound of your equipments. They simply either will degrade or not degrade the SQ of the equipments within their own designs.

Do not expect miracle. A rough sounding CDP, Pre or AMP can be tamed by playing around with different types of connection and the end result is the roughness of the equipments is tolerable for listenning to but the equipmenst themselves will not produce any better SQ as intended by design.

spnplgr

If I would bi-wire, that is what I was considering was the Canare 4S11. Thanks

treitz3

TECHNOKID wrote: »

If you are considering simple and economical, stay away from bi-wiring as it is useless.

Well, I wouldn't say that it's useless as I have read that some folks have heard a positive change [I haven't]. That said, it is definitely overrated.

You can't bi-wire anyway so just invest in a good SC and call it a day.

TECHNOKID

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

If you decide to do the "single run" thing make shure you yank the factory jumper bar and replace it with some speaker wire, you WILL hear a difference

Agreed, simple cost effective change that the OP may like or not an also can go back to original easily. No money involved and minimum down time :cool:

steveinaz wrote: »

^^agree 100%.

You don't have to break the bank for cable but as pointed out the money saved not doubling the cables could be spent toward slightly better grade cable and would more likely be a B.B.B!

anhchungdoan wrote: »

Here we go, an experiment without breaking your bank account.

I would like to add another point and I will shut the hell up so I would not offend anyone. If I did , my apology.

Cables, Ics, Power Cords will not improve the sound of your equipments. They simply either will degrade or not degrade the SQ of the equipments within their own designs.

Do not expect miracle. A rough sounding CDP, Pre or AMP can be tamed by playing around with different types of connection and the end result is the roughness of the equipments is tolerable for listenning to but the equipmenst themselves will not produce any better SQ as intended by design.

No offence in any way however, the goal of BI-amping is to isolate high and mids which we all agree isn't effective however, while ICs and (for some) powerr cords may provide for better SQ, this wasn't the goal of the OP. In my opinion he is concerned about isolating his high and mid drivers. I agree with the "garbage in => garbage out" notion but no where is the OP mentionning he has issues with such.

Cheers!
TK

spnplgr

tonyb wrote: »

Back to the OP's question and in laymen's terms.....no,don't waist your coin on bi-wire cables.If that is all the gear you intend to get,a good set of single run cables will do just fine. Just for the record,a bi-wire set of cables will have two connections on one end for the receiver or amp,and four on the speaker side. Get some quality single run cables,and IC's and rock out.

Appreciate that information. I'm now planning on the BJC 5000UE 12 gauge cable. Seems like most people are happy with that cable.

TECHNOKID

treitz3 wrote: »

Well, I wouldn't say that it's useless as I have read that some folks have heard a positive change [I haven't]. That said, it is definitely overrated.

You can't bi-wire anyway so just invest in a good SC and call it a day.

While some people may claim to hear changes some chages are simply psycologically heard or as mentioned on many occasion, on many discussions the positive changes could simply be coming from the removal of poorly conducting jumper and replaced by a better conductor. In order for BI-wiring to actually be of any positive effect we would need to talk about some noticable lenghts of cable (which would then be effective to substantially decrease the unwanted signal; High=>Mid<High). However, such extreme lenghts may at the same time degrade the good signal along. Again, we all seem to agree that investing in better quality cables would give better results

Cheers!
TK

spnplgr

tonyb wrote: »

Back to the OP's question and in laymen's terms.....no,don't waist your coin on bi-wire cables.If that is all the gear you intend to get,a good set of single run cables will do just fine. Just for the record,a bi-wire set of cables will have two connections on one end for the receiver or amp,and four on the speaker side. Get some quality single run cables,and IC's and rock out.

Thanks for that explanation. (I'm trying to figure out some of these quotes and stuff here on replying, so bear with me. I'm still new here). I'm gonna get some BJC 5000UE 12 gauge, and use banana plugs and some bare wire attach also, and also get some A/V wallplates for a neat install.

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

If you decide to do the "single run" thing make shure you yank the factory jumper bar and replace it with some speaker wire, you WILL hear a difference

Yes, I planned on that. I'm assuming I can use the same speaker wire as my cable run is. (seperate short piece's)

TECHNOKID wrote: »

If you are considering simple and economical, stay away from bi-wiring as it is useless. Yes bi-wiring is simply paralelling 2 pairs of wires from the same output and if you can picture the kind of circuit you are getting by doing such you will realize that the only difference between the straight single cable pair connection is simply basically doubling the distance between your high and mids (cable lenght which is somewhat insignificant in most cases and therefore will not achieve anything else but costing you twice the amount in cable). The idea behind bi-amping is to isolate the high and mids along with potential power gain if you are using powerfull enough amps. Bi-wiring doesn't achieve either one, if at least you were accomplishing high and mids seperation/isolation it could lead you to greater SQ but fact is you are not!

Cheers!
TK

Thanks for that info TK

treitz3 wrote: »

Well, I wouldn't say that it's useless as I have read that some folks have heard a positive change [I haven't]. That said, it is definitely overrated.

You can't bi-wire anyway so just invest in a good SC and call it a day.

You've made my decision easier.

ben62670 wrote: »

Save your money and get a good set of standard speaker wires.

I'm hoping that the BJC 5000UE is pretty good cable. That's what I'm planning on using now. Thanks all for your advice.

Bernal

Hello.
If you use an amplifier "Sunfire" absolutely bi-wiring improves the sound to handle two types of current. See graph for installation. Use cable "HF" free of oxygen.

---

01) DENON AVR-4308CI: Advanced 7.1 CH/5.1+2 CH/ 3.1+2+2 CH A/V Home Theater /MultiMedia Multi-Source/Zone Receiver with Networking and WiFi/170 watts x 7 channels
02) SUNFIRE Grand Signature - Bob Carver's
03) OPPO DV-980H 1080p Up-Converting Universal DVD Player with HDMI and 7.1CH Audio
04) OPPO BDP-83 Blu-ray Disc Player w/SACD & DVD-Audio / DENON DVD-2500BTCI: Blu-ray Disc™ DVD/CD Digital Player/Transport
05) HITACHI P55T501. 55" HD1080 Plasma HDTV
06) POLKAUDIO LSiC (Center speaker)
07) POLKAUDIO LSi15 LEFT (Front speaker)
08) POLKAUDIO LSi15 RIGHT (Front speaker)
09) POLKAUDIO LSif/x LEFT (Surround speaker)
10) POLKAUDIO LSif/x RIGHT (Surround speaker)
11) VELODYNE OPTIMUN 12" (High Output Digital EQ SubWoofer 2400W/1200WRMS)

anhchungdoan

TECHNOKID wrote: »

Agreed, simple cost effective change that the OP may like or not an also can go back to original easily. No money involved and minimum down time :cool:

You don't have to break the bank for cable but as pointed out the money saved not doubling the cables could be spent toward slightly better grade cable and would more likely be a B.B.B!

No offence in any way however, the goal of BI-amping is to isolate high and mids which we all agree isn't effective however, while ICs and (for some) powerr cords may provide for better SQ, this wasn't the goal of the OP. In my opinion he is concerned about isolating his high and mid drivers. I agree with the "garbage in => garbage out" notion but no where is the OP mentionning he has issues with such.

Cheers!
TK

It's cool, Canadian guy. I've heard your point.

beardog03

I`m not going to get into the whole Bi-wire saga again, but ponder this....


If it makes no difference, than why did the put two sets of binding posts on the back instead of just one (wired on the inside), if it makes no difference in sound ?

Two wires the same length , comming from the same place.....couldn`t hurt the sound, now coud it ?!!

Instead of removable jumpers, why didn`t they just wire the crossover together on the inside ?!!

think about it before you answer......

TECHNOKID

beardog03 wrote: »

I`m not going to get into the whole Bi-wire saga again, but ponder this....


If it makes no difference, than why did the put two sets of binding posts on the back instead of just one (wired on the inside), if it makes no difference in sound ?

Two wires the same length , comming from the same place.....couldn`t hurt the sound, now coud it ?!!

Instead of removable jumpers, why didn`t they just wire the crossover together on the inside ?!!

think about it before you answer......

Bi-wire doesn't make tangible difference but Bi-amping does thus the reason for the jumper, simply to allow you to b-amp your system giving high and low separation and potential extra gain (considering the selected amp(s) will at least double the original power (min 3db gain)).

Cheers!
TK

beardog03

Fair enough !!

Good answer !!

sTiLlLeArNiNg

spnplgr wrote: »

Yes, I planned on that. I'm assuming I can use the same speaker wire as my cable run is. (seperate short piece's)

Yup! That BJC 5000 is made by Belden so it should be excellent for your intended use!

Here is a pic of how mine are at the moment, i'm just using some 16g Rocketfish i got with my purchase @ Futuresh|t

tonyb

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

Yup! That BJC 5000 is made by Belden so it should be excellent for your intended use!

Here is a pic of how mine are at the moment, i'm just using some 16g Rocketfish i got with my purchase @ Futuresh|t

Also just for giggles,it looks like in your pic that the top posts have the plastic cover over the wire under the binding post. The right top specifically. When useing bare wire and stripping,make sure the plastic is not locked into the binding post. I could be wrong on the pic but just sayin'.

TroyD

There are those that disagree and say that biwiring CAN make a difference....I'm not making a blanket statement as this is one of those counterproductive Urinary Olympiads....however, I will throw this out there: those of you that are saying 'no'....that's a subjective position and there are those out there that disagree.

For me, if you are using an AVR....yes, probably a waste of time...however, moving up the food chain, I'd disagree...it can make a difference.

BDT

Bernal

Interesting views.
Sunfire:D solves the problem differently. View image. There are two types of current when using the bi-wiring.
Thoughts.

---

01) DENON AVR-4308CI: Advanced 7.1 CH/5.1+2 CH/ 3.1+2+2 CH A/V Home Theater /MultiMedia Multi-Source/Zone Receiver with Networking and WiFi/170 watts x 7 channels
02) SUNFIRE Grand Signature - Bob Carver's
03) OPPO DV-980H 1080p Up-Converting Universal DVD Player with HDMI and 7.1CH Audio
04) OPPO BDP-83 Blu-ray Disc Player w/SACD & DVD-Audio / DENON DVD-2500BTCI: Blu-ray Disc™ DVD/CD Digital Player/Transport
05) HITACHI P55T501. 55" HD1080 Plasma HDTV
06) POLKAUDIO LSiC (Center speaker)
07) POLKAUDIO LSi15 LEFT (Front speaker)
08) POLKAUDIO LSi15 RIGHT (Front speaker)
09) POLKAUDIO LSif/x LEFT (Surround speaker)
10) POLKAUDIO LSif/x RIGHT (Surround speaker)
11) VELODYNE OPTIMUN 12" (High Output Digital EQ SubWoofer 2400W/1200WRMS)

sTiLlLeArNiNg

tonyb wrote: »

Also just for giggles,it looks like in your pic that the top posts have the plastic cover over the wire under the binding post. The right top specifically. When useing bare wire and stripping,make sure the plastic is not locked into the binding post. I could be wrong on the pic but just sayin'.

Not shure what you mean When you back the "nut" off there is a hole in the binding post so that you can insert the bare wire, that's what i did The plug's/cap's are there to keep the banana jack's free from debris i think....

Bernal

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

Not shure what you mean When you back the "nut" off there is a hole in the binding post so that you can insert the bare wire, that's what i did The plug's/cap's are there to keep the banana jack's free from debris i think....

Why not use the bridges PolkAudio: gold plated for maximum signal transfer

sTiLlLeArNiNg

Bernal wrote: »

Why not use the bridges PolkAudio: gold plated for maximum signal transfer

Because they SUCK! lol I don't care if they were made of diamond's! I heard a very NOTICEABLE improvement when i switched to the speaker wire jumper. Try it for yourself if you don't beleive me

All of these speaker manufacturer's would save load's of cash if they completely did away with the jumper's and used small section's of speaker wire

Just my $0.02 of course

Bernal

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

Because they SUCK! lol I don't care if they were made of diamond's! I heard a very NOTICEABLE improvement when i switched to the speaker wire jumper. Try it for yourself if you don't beleive me

All of these speaker manufacturer's would save load's of cash if they completely did away with the jumper's and used small section's of speaker wire

Just my $0.02 of course

Ok. The factory, but I speak of a better accessory "lab tested".
I do not need the bridge. Because in all my settings to use bi-wiring: HF "Oxygen-free copper / Oxygen-free high thermal conductivity". I do this by using a "Sunfire" dual-stream to the speaker.

Bernal wrote: »

Sunfire:D solves the problem differently. View image. There are two types of current when using the bi-wiring.
Thoughts.

---

01) DENON AVR-4308CI: Advanced 7.1 CH/5.1+2 CH/ 3.1+2+2 CH A/V Home Theater /MultiMedia Multi-Source/Zone Receiver with Networking and WiFi/170 watts x 7 channels
02) SUNFIRE Grand Signature - Bob Carver's
03) OPPO DV-980H 1080p Up-Converting Universal DVD Player with HDMI and 7.1CH Audio
04) OPPO BDP-83 Blu-ray Disc Player w/SACD & DVD-Audio / DENON DVD-2500BTCI: Blu-ray Disc™ DVD/CD Digital Player/Transport
05) HITACHI P55T501. 55" HD1080 Plasma HDTV
06) POLKAUDIO LSiC (Center speaker)
07) POLKAUDIO LSi15 LEFT (Front speaker)
08) POLKAUDIO LSi15 RIGHT (Front speaker)
09) POLKAUDIO LSif/x LEFT (Surround speaker)
10) POLKAUDIO LSif/x RIGHT (Surround speaker)
11) VELODYNE OPTIMUN 12" (High Output Digital EQ SubWoofer 2400W/1200WRMS)