LSi Series Crossover Frequency

JSP61

Hello everyone, I hope you guys are doing well.

I have a question concerning the LSi speaker series. I finally have my dream setup done, but I am bugged by one setting that I cannot quite understand: The crossover frequency of my speakers and the Onkyo TX-NR5007.

As you can see on my signature, I have LSi15 in front, LSiC in Center, and a pair of LSi9 in the rear.

My question would be what would be the optimal crossover frequency for these speakers?

After running Audissey, it gave me something around the 50hz, and it sounded like crap.

I then put all the settings to "FULL BAND", it sounded much better, but I still feel something is missing...

Anyone has an idea?

Thanks!

dorokusai

80hz.

Bernal

JSP61 wrote: »

Hello everyone, I hope you guys are doing well.

I have a question concerning the LSi speaker series. I finally have my dream setup done, but I am bugged by one setting that I cannot quite understand: The crossover frequency of my speakers and the Onkyo TX-NR5007.

As you can see on my signature, I have LSi15 in front, LSiC in Center, and a pair of LSi9 in the rear.

My question would be what would be the optimal crossover frequency for these speakers?

After running Audissey, it gave me something around the 50hz, and it sounded like crap.

I then put all the settings to "FULL BAND", it sounded much better, but I still feel something is missing...

Anyone has an idea?

Thanks!

①
◊ Main speakers - SMALL - crossover to 60 Hz,
◊ Center - SMALL - crossover to 60 Hz,
◊ Surround - SMALL - crossover to 60 Hz,
◊ Subwoofer - crossover to 60 Hz,
◊ LFE (Low Frequency Effects) channel - crossover to 120Hz.

②
◊ Main speakers - SMALL - crossover to 80 Hz,
◊ Center - SMALL - crossover to 80 Hz,
◊ Surround - SMALL - crossover to 80 Hz,
◊ Subwoofer - crossover to 80 Hz,
◊ LFE (Low Frequency Effects) channel - crossover to 80Hz.

③
◊ Main speakers - SMALL - crossover to 80 Hz,
◊ Center - SMALL - crossover to 100 Hz,
◊ Surround - SMALL - crossover to 80 Hz,
◊ Subwoofer - crossover to 80 Hz,
◊ LFE (Low Frequency Effects) channel - crossover to 120Hz.

④ ⇓-Preference-⇓

◊ Main speakers - LARGE,
◊ Center - SMALL - crossover to 60 Hz,
◊ Surround - SMALL - crossover to 60 Hz,
◊ Subwoofer - crossover to 60 Hz,
◊ LFE (Low Frequency Effects) channel - crossover to 120Hz.


LSi are speakers at 4 ohms. Check processor.

---

01) DENON AVR-4308CI: Advanced 7.1 CH/5.1+2 CH/ 3.1+2+2 CH A/V Home Theater /MultiMedia Multi-Source/Zone Receiver with Networking and WiFi/170 watts x 7 channels
02) SUNFIRE Grand Signature - Bob Carver's
03) OPPO DV-980H 1080p Up-Converting Universal DVD Player with HDMI and 7.1CH Audio
04) OPPO BDP-83 Blu-ray Disc Player w/SACD & DVD-Audio / DENON DVD-2500BTCI: Blu-ray Disc™ DVD/CD Digital Player/Transport
05) HITACHI P55T501. 55" HD1080 Plasma HDTV
06) POLKAUDIO LSiC (Center speaker)
07) POLKAUDIO LSi15 LEFT (Front speaker)
08) POLKAUDIO LSi15 RIGHT (Front speaker)
09) POLKAUDIO LSif/x LEFT (Surround speaker)
10) POLKAUDIO LSif/x RIGHT (Surround speaker)
11) VELODYNE OPTIMUN 12" (High Output Digital EQ SubWoofer 2400W/1200WRMS)

McLoki

dorokusai wrote: »

80hz.

+1 for home theater it is usually the best place to start and then try up and down 1 or 2 settings from there and see if it is better.

If you want a set and forget 80hz is a safe bet for most setups.

Burningcoals

I think the recommended setup is;
②
◊ Main speakers - SMALL - crossover to 80 Hz,
◊ Center - SMALL - crossover to 80 Hz,
◊ Surround - SMALL - crossover to 80 Hz,
◊ Subwoofer - crossover to 120 Hz,
◊ LFE (Low Frequency Effects) channel - crossover to 80Hz.

This is based off the following statement in the Audyssey setup procedure;

2. If the LPF cannot be disabled, set it to the highest frequency allowed

Bernal

Burningcoals wrote: »

I think the recommended setup is;
②
◊ Main speakers - SMALL - crossover to 80 Hz,
◊ Center - SMALL - crossover to 80 Hz,
◊ Surround - SMALL - crossover to 80 Hz,
◊ Subwoofer - crossover to 120 Hz,
◊ LFE (Low Frequency Effects) channel - crossover to 80Hz.

This is based off the following statement in the Audyssey setup procedure;

2. If the LPF cannot be disabled, set it to the highest frequency allowed

Please review the information Audyssey. I think there is an error in your statement.
See the following table:

Burningcoals

Bernal wrote: »

Please review the information Audyssey. I think there is an error in your statement.
See the following table:

I am still learning all this; but I was referring to the setting on the sub itself.

Never the less; in all the Audyssey setup docs it states that you should set it to 120Hz at least for the sub.

So would that be setting the xover on the Sub to 120Hz and the adjustment in the AVR also?

Could someone shed some light on this?

So am I to understand that no matter what I set to the sub to; if I have the LPF to LFE @ 80Hz in the AVR config, that is what the sub is crossed over at?

dorokusai

Remember that these are also suggestions, none of that verbage is set in stone. You should set them in the way that sounds best in your room. Audyssey while nice is far from perfect software.

If you cross or filter at the AVR you don't do anything at the subwoofer, crank the crossover all the way up.

Burningcoals

dorokusai wrote: »

Remember that these are also suggestions, none of that verbage is set in stone. You should set them in the way that sounds best in your room. Audyssey while nice is far from perfect software.

If you cross or filter at the AVR you don't do anything at the subwoofer, crank the crossover all the way up.

Thanks; that's what I thought.

Here is what I read from the Audyssey setup document;

3. Audyssey recommends that all speakers be set to “Small” (i.e. not Full Band) by selecting a crossover frequency. This will re-direct the frequencies below the crossover point to the subwoofer, resulting in improved headroom for the main amplifier and 8x higher MultEQ filter resolution in the subwoofer channel (e.g. flatter bass).
a. Setting the speakers to “Small” with a 60 Hz – 80 Hz crossover is a good starting point, assuming the post-calibration crossover setting is 60 Hz or lower.

4. For additional details about the crossover selection process, see “Note 1” below.

B. Raise the low-pass filter (LPF) setting—usually incorrectly identified as a crossover—of the LFE subwoofer in the receiver / processor to 120Hz, if allowed.

Burningcoals

Bernal wrote: »

①
◊ Main speakers - SMALL - crossover to 60 Hz,
◊ Center - SMALL - crossover to 60 Hz,
◊ Surround - SMALL - crossover to 60 Hz,
◊ Subwoofer - crossover to 60 Hz,
◊ LFE (Low Frequency Effects) channel - crossover to 120Hz.

②
◊ Main speakers - SMALL - crossover to 80 Hz,
◊ Center - SMALL - crossover to 80 Hz,
◊ Surround - SMALL - crossover to 80 Hz,
◊ Subwoofer - crossover to 80 Hz,
◊ LFE (Low Frequency Effects) channel - crossover to 80Hz.

③
◊ Main speakers - SMALL - crossover to 80 Hz,
◊ Center - SMALL - crossover to 100 Hz,
◊ Surround - SMALL - crossover to 80 Hz,
◊ Subwoofer - crossover to 80 Hz,
◊ LFE (Low Frequency Effects) channel - crossover to 120Hz.

④ ⇓-Preference-⇓

◊ Main speakers - LARGE,
◊ Center - SMALL - crossover to 60 Hz,
◊ Surround - SMALL - crossover to 60 Hz,
◊ Subwoofer - crossover to 60 Hz,
◊ LFE (Low Frequency Effects) channel - crossover to 120Hz.


LSi are speakers at 4 ohms. Check processor.

---

01) DENON AVR-4308CI: Advanced 7.1 CH/5.1+2 CH/ 3.1+2+2 CH A/V Home Theater /MultiMedia Multi-Source/Zone Receiver with Networking and WiFi/170 watts x 7 channels
02) SUNFIRE Grand Signature - Bob Carver's
03) OPPO DV-980H 1080p Up-Converting Universal DVD Player with HDMI and 7.1CH Audio
04) OPPO BDP-83 Blu-ray Disc Player w/SACD & DVD-Audio / DENON DVD-2500BTCI: Blu-ray Disc™ DVD/CD Digital Player/Transport
05) HITACHI P55T501. 55" HD1080 Plasma HDTV
06) POLKAUDIO LSiC (Center speaker)
07) POLKAUDIO LSi15 LEFT (Front speaker)
08) POLKAUDIO LSi15 RIGHT (Front speaker)
09) POLKAUDIO LSif/x LEFT (Surround speaker)
10) POLKAUDIO LSif/x RIGHT (Surround speaker)
11) VELODYNE OPTIMUN 12" (High Output Digital EQ SubWoofer 2400W/1200WRMS)

What are you referring to when you mention Subwoofer - Crossover? Is this the xover on the sub itself? If so then I am not sure what good it would do setting the sub to a Hz range lower then LPF to LFE?

Bernal

Burningcoals wrote: »

I am still learning all this; but I was referring to the setting on the sub itself.

Never the less; in all the Audyssey setup docs it states that you should set it to 120Hz at least for the sub.

So would that be setting the xover on the Sub to 120Hz and the adjustment in the AVR also?

Could someone shed some light on this?

So am I to understand that no matter what I set to the sub to; if I have the LPF to LFE @ 80Hz in the AVR config, that is what the sub is crossed over at?

Information: http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/zz-_Shared_Assets/English_PDFs/Professional/38_LFE.pdf
"...Dolby Laboratories, Inc. 100 Potrero Avenue, San Francisco, CA 94103-4813 Telephone 415-558-0200 Fax 415-863-1373
Wootton Bassett, Wiltshire, SN4 8QJ, England Telephone (44) 1793-842100 Fax (44) 1793-842101 www.dolby.com
Dolby and the double-D symbol are trademarks of Dolby Laboratories. © 2000 Dolby Laboratories, Inc.
What is the LFE channel?
5.1-channel audio consists of five discrete, full range main channels (Left, Center,
Right, Left Surround, and Right Surround) plus an optional band-limited Low-
Frequency Effects (LFE) channel.
In contrast to the main channels, the LFE channel delivers bass-only information
(<120 Hz) and has no direct effect on the perceived directionality of the reproduced
soundtrack. Its purpose is to supplement the overall bass content of the program or
to ease the burden on the other channels. The LFE channel was originally devised
for 70 mm movie productions to deliver a separate bass signal to one or more
additional subwoofers placed behind the movie screen. This allowed deep bass
effects to be added to movie soundtracks without having to upgrade the existing
speakers and amplifiers in the three main screen channels. It also meant that the
headroom of the 70 mm magnetic audio recordings would not be taxed at low
frequencies, which would have detracted from their loudness capability at mid and
high frequencies. Finally, no additional frequency crossovers would need to be
retrofitted into existing cinema processors to redirect the bass from the main left,
center, and right channels to the subwoofer(s). Taking advantage of the available
channel capacity on 70 mm prints to deliver a separate bass effects signal proved to
be the most direct, convenient, and economical way to supplement the low-
frequency capability of movie soundtracks.
To maintain full compatibility with existing theatres, the Dolby Digital film format
includes a separate LFE channel. When movies formatted for the consumer use
Dolby Digital, the same tracks as originally produced are usually used, including
the LFE track if available. Consumer Dolby Digital products that reproduce
multichannel sound must combine the LFE channel in the proper acoustic mixing
ratio with the bass from the other channels for proper reproduction.
LFE does not equal subwoofer
Dolby Digital programs may include a bass-only LFE channel, but this channel
does not correspond directly to a subwoofer output. It is possible for a program to
contain an LFE channel, but a decoder may provide no subwoofer output because
all of the bass information in the program, including the LFE channel, can be
reproduced by the main speakers. The opposite is also true: it is possible for a
program to not contain an LFE channel, yet a decoder may provide a subwoofer
output because some or all of the main speakers are unable to reproduce the bass
information in the program. The difference between the LFE channel and the
subwoofer output is that the LFE channel is used to carry additional bass
information in the Dolby Digital program while the subwoofer output represents
how some or all of the bass information will be reproduced.
The LFE channel carries additional bass information to supplement the bass
information in the main channels. The signal in the LFE channel is calibrated
during soundtrack production to be able to contribute 10 dB higher SPL than the
same bass signal from any one of the screen (front) channels. Even if all three
screen channels are active, enough bass could be delivered by the LFE channel
alone to bring the theatre’s subwoofer into acoustic balance with the screen
channels. This allows filmmakers to unburden the main channels by diverting the
strongest bass to the separate LFE channel, as needed. Under the most demanding
program conditions, where the bass is fully loading the left, center, and right
channels, the LFE channel could increase the bass intensity by up to 6 dB.
The subwoofer output, on the other hand, is bass information from up to all six
channels that has been selected to be reproduced by a subwoofer. The specific
combination of bass information in the subwoofer output is determined by the bass
management settings chosen for that particular playback system’s speakers. For
example, in addition to the bass information from the LFE channel, the subwoofer
output may include the bass information from the center and surround channels
when those speakers are unable to adequately reproduce the bass frequencies.
As can be seen from the above explanation, the terms LFE and subwoofer are not
interchangeable, and the distinction between the two terms is very important. Care
should be taken to avoid confusion by using these terms appropriately.
S00/12888/13409..."

chrisfromalbany

dorokusai wrote: »

80hz.

for all the speakers including lsi15s? I would think surrs would be higher because smaller and Lsi15 would be lower. Isn't the XO on the sub in the LSi15 @ 80 Hz?

dorokusai

Again....80hz. This isn't rocket science. If your speakers are very small....120hz is probably not a bad idea. Most of the time they have filters built-in anyways.

80hz in the spectrum is NOTHING for almost any loudspeaker to produce....LFE or Subwoofer effects are hitting WAY lower than 80hz.

Burningcoals

So if the subwoofer is set at 60Hz; but LFE is set to 120Hz; there is no correlation? In other words the sub is not capped @ 60Hz?

And even if that is true; The audyssey setup still states to set the SUB @ 120Hz;

B. Disable the Low-Pass Filter (LPF) on the subwoofer, if allowed.

1. Disabling the LPF will result in more accurate subwoofer distance measurements.

2. If the LPF cannot be disabled, set it to the highest frequency allowed.

dorokusai

chrisfromalbany wrote: »

for all the speakers including lsi15s?

Yes. You can lower the value depending on how it sounds in your area. I ran my LSi15 at 80hz due to the fact they had zero impact on my low end. I also have a monster subwoofer.

dorokusai

I never stated that BC.

B. Disable the LPF means - Turn the knob on the subwoofer all the way up. If your all the way up is 100hz for example, adjust your AVR accordingly.

Burningcoals

dorokusai wrote: »

Again....80hz. This isn't rocket science. If your speakers are very small....120hz is probably not a bad idea. Most of the time they have filters built-in anyways.

80hz in the spectrum is NOTHING for almost any loudspeaker to produce....LFE or Subwoofer effects are hitting WAY lower than 80hz.

Totally; I have M70's, CS2; I can do lower then 80Hz, however I am just concerned about starting with the right recommended settings before I further play with them.

Apparently Audyssey states set all the speakers to 80hz, but the Sub to 120Hz, both in AVR and on the sub itself.

And I am trying to learn the AVR LPF to LFE relationship with the xover on the Sub itself.

Just trying to learn.

dorokusai

It's a general enough statement to cause even more confusion. You can never account for every piece of equipment someone owns....they all own different stuff. From garbage to mediocre to awesome and way too expensive. Some of it is more adjustable than others....and in that case you have to establish a compromise.

If you have an adjustable AVR, handle your business there and keep it simple.

dorokusai

Burningcoals wrote: »

Totally; I have M70's, CS2; I can do lower then 80Hz, however I am just concerned about starting with the right recommended settings before I further play with them.

Apparently Audyssey states set all the speakers to 80hz, but the Sub to 120Hz, both in AVR and on the sub itself.

And I am trying to learn the AVR LPF to LFE relationship with the xover on the Sub itself.

Just trying to learn.

I one...wouldn't even run Audyssey and set up my standard 80hz configuration. I'd tailor it based on what I like to hear. Usually rears hotter, subwoofer hotter and mains at 60hz depending on what they are.

If you are compelled to use it, run it, and then change the settings to suit you and your listening habits.

Bernal

dorokusai wrote: »

I one...wouldn't even run Audyssey and set up my standard 80hz configuration. I'd tailor it based on what I like to hear. Usually rears hotter, subwoofer hotter and mains at 60hz depending on what they are.

If you are compelled to use it, run it, and then change the settings to suit you and your listening habits.

I agree
The ear is the best judge

JSP61

Wow, thanks for the response guys...

To clarify some things here,

1-On the DSWMicroPRO user's manual states that: "The low pass filter control has no effect on subwoofer response when the subwoofer is connected with option#1(LFE input)".

I connected the Onkyo 5007 AVR through the LFE input, thus disabeling the "LFE knob" in the back of the sub, letting the AVR alone to control the LFE. Still, it's not what I'm worrying about right now.

2- I understand that the safe spot would be between 60-80 hz point for my all my speakers, but I want to understand more on the topic.

For instance, my LSi15 are big, badass loudspeakers. As you all know, they have a built in sub. So, I guess I could put the XO frequency lower than let's say, the Center speaker (LSiC) and the surround (LSi9).

For instance:

LSi15: Could the XO be around 60hz and lower because it has a built-in sub?
LSiC: Since it's a center speaker, shouldn't be playing higher frequencies? i.e. XO @ 100-120?
LSi9: They can handle a lot of mid and have tweeters, they're basically the LSi15 without the sub. How about... let's say between 60-80hz?

Some post would recommend me using the same cross over point for ALL speaker (or at least very minimal variation between them). Isn't is strange considering the fact that ALL of them have different strength/purpose in the home theater?

BERNAL: I have put the speakers at 4 ohms on the AVR, but I cannot put the option "large" or "small" speaker. It just doesn't exist with the Onkyo's (it's my 3rd Onk).

Thanks guys,

Burningcoals

JSP61 wrote: »

Wow, thanks for the response guys...

To clarify some things here,

1-On the DSWMicroPRO user's manual states that: "The low pass filter control has no effect on subwoofer response when the subwoofer is connected with option#1(LFE input)".

I connected the Onkyo 5007 AVR through the LFE input, thus disabeling the "LFE knob" in the back of the sub, letting the AVR alone to control the LFE. Still, it's not what I'm worrying about right now.

2- I understand that the safe spot would be between 60-80 hz point for my all my speakers, but I want to understand more on the topic.

For instance, my LSi15 are big, badass loudspeakers. As you all know, they have a built in sub. So, I guess I could put the XO frequency lower than let's say, the Center speaker (LSiC) and the surround (LSi9).

For instance:

LSi15: Could the XO be around 60hz and lower because it has a built-in sub?
LSiC: Since it's a center speaker, shouldn't be playing higher frequencies? i.e. XO @ 100-120?
LSi9: They can handle a lot of mid and have tweeters, they're basically the LSi15 without the sub. How about... let's say between 60-80hz?

Some post would recommend me using the same cross over point for ALL speaker (or at least very minimal variation between them). Isn't is strange considering the fact that ALL of them have different strength/purpose in the home theater?

BERNAL: I have put the speakers at 4 ohms on the AVR, but I cannot put the option "large" or "small" speaker. It just doesn't exist with the Onkyo's (it's my 3rd Onk).

Thanks guys,

I have the same receiver as you do; almost its the 1007 instead of the top dog 5007; in speaker configuration; you can back the Hz range down until it says "Full range" Which should set the speakers as large.

Also the idea that while your big mains can play low bass, your sub should be better at it; which is why you xover 60-80hz.

Bernal

JSP61 wrote: »

Wow, thanks for the response guys...

...
BERNAL: I have put the speakers at 4 ohms on the AVR, but I cannot put the option "large" or "small" speaker. It just doesn't exist with the Onkyo's (it's my 3rd Onk).

Thanks guys,

"Full range" is the equivalent to "Large".
Listen to your room.
It may be that better corresponds to "small" to play the bass with the subwoofer.

Bernal

....