Connecting PC Soundcard to Pre-amp

inspiredsports

I always have pieces/parts lying around and decided it was time to see if I could enjoy the MP3's that reside on my laptop through my SDA's.

The laptop sound card has the standard female mini stereo output that a male stereo headphone pin (1/8" I think) fits into.

I found a cheap 5 foot cord in my parts bin with a 1/8" male stereo plug on one end that splits into 2 standard male RCA phono plugs at the other. The male RCA ends are color coded red and black, where black is the right channel.

My pre-amp is about 15 feet away, and I have a modest quality 10' audio/video cable with gold-plated RCA tips, so I needed something with double female RCA's to connect the 5' adapter cable coming out of my laptop to the longer cable, and then into the pre-amp. My Yaqin CD1 tube buffer seemed to fit the bill, with the bonus of taking any possible impedance mismatch out of play.

I'm just using Microsoft Windows Media Player v11 right now to drive the system and the sound is decent, but not even close to what I'm used to from Turntable, CD Player and FM Tuner.

QUESTIONS:

1) I used the tube buffer simply to allow me to cover the 15' gap from sound card to pre-amp. Is it OK to go straight from the sound card to pre-amp inputs in a single run or could there be impedance issues? (I have no idea at what impedance the sound card operates)

2) The adapter cable (1/8" to RCA phono's) that I have is very low quality. Does anyone have a recommendation as to where I can get a 15' audiophile grade cable that will do the trick?

3) Are there specific brands of sound cards that yield improvements?

4) Are there specific software players that offer improvements over Windows Media Player?

Thanks in advance for any hints,
Greg

bigaudiofanatic

I have sort of the same thing going on. I have been ding this for a while now. I have my receiver about 10 ft away. I have a headphone extension cable than from there it goes into a Y splitter with rcas. That than goes to the pre input. Works just fine. you only problem might be that you might finally hear what your music is missing when it is compressed. My collection is all lossless after dealing with different bit rates for 2 years. Best Library software I have used is itunes. I swear by it very fast and easy to find a song and make play lists. Just great.

inspiredsports

bigaudiofanatic wrote: »

I have sort of the same thing going on. I have been ding this for a while now. I have my receiver about 10 ft away. I have a headphone extension cable than from there it goes into a Y splitter with rcas. That than goes to the pre input. Works just fine. you only problem might be that you might finally hear what your music is missing when it is compressed. My collection is all lossless after dealing with different bit rates for 2 years. Best Library software I have used is itunes. I swear by it very fast and easy to find a song and make play lists. Just great.

Thanks!

I'd forgotten that my kids use iTunes on an eMac on my home network, and you are right, it's great music software.

I'm also remembering I installed it on a PC or two. The problem I ran into was that iTunes automatically installs "Bonjour" which looks for other computers on the network (Mac of otherwise) plus some "ET, phone home" update stuff and also a couple of Apple "helper applications". I'm a stickler about security on my network so I uninstalled all of the extras, but it seems any time it updated, the stuff came back so I've relegated it to living only on the Mac.

You are right about compression. I've been looking at file sizes and minute for minute, the larger files sizes for equal length songs always sound best. I guess ripping directly from CD is the best way to go for that, but I also want to take advantage of the various MP3's on our home network and iPods and I think many of them are compressed. I've been playing with Media Player's equalizer It seems the compression degrades the sound the most from about 16,000 Hz up to the threshold of my hearing audibility.

Last, are you thinking that the quality of the patch cord will have less effect on the sound quality than I am anticipating?

This is a new area of sound storage and reproduction for me and I'm having fun learning!

dorokusai

Frank @ Signal Cable has made me a couple custom 1/8" mini-jack to RCA adapters. I only needed short ones but the length is completely up to you.

Signal Analog Mini

I had mine made from the cable used in the Analog 2. You can even get silver is you are so inclined.

inspiredsports

Thanks Doro! While not my preferred brand, I also just found this single piece 20' length at just over a dollar per foot delivered to my doorstep and I am giving this wire a good look.

With 20', I can go up into my drop ceiling and down an existing conduit behind my stereo gear for a perfectly hidden solution!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350271641134

Now I need to weigh $22 versus $90 + S&H to see how much I want the better quality Signal Cable for this particular application.

I have a Signal Cable MagicPower cord that is very good, so I guess I'm leaning that way . . . . but $70+ more . . . . I need to consider.

I guess I'll end up doing what I always do. . . buy both, listen, and keep the winner.

nspindel

YMMV, but when I changed from Monster to Signal, it was like I got a whole new system. Frank's stuff blows Monster out of the water.

inspiredsports

nspindel wrote: »

YMMV, but when I changed from Monster to Signal, it was like I got a whole new system. Frank's stuff blows Monster out of the water.

Thanks! Did your upgrade involve regular pre-amp/amp/speaker cables, or was it for this kind of pc sound card application?

I am a huge proponent of spending as much as you can afford for power cables, speakers cables and IC's, but I have zero experience with what to expect from a stock Dell laptop sound card reproducing MP3's.

I've listened for several hours with the cabling topography mentioned in post #1 above and am fairly happy with overall sound quality, imaging and soundstage, but it's honestly not even close to what I'm used to from the various CD players and turntables in my collection.

bigaudiofanatic

All you do is open itunes and under one of the tabs you turn OFF home sharing. That is all you have to do for not sharing anymore. Also if your network is locked you are fine anyway. Yes I have re ripped all my music and my neighbors who has over 700 albums. If your library is big and you do not have at least a 500 gb hard drive get one that is an external or even an internal as a slave.

Also spending that much for a cable.......not to be blunt but come on now. I am using a belkin extender cable and not sure what dollar store Y splitter works fine. But if you want to spend that much than that is your choice.

dorokusai

inspiredsports wrote: »

Thanks Doro!

No problem, it's just a suggestion. He also gives discounts to Club Polk members.

nspindel

Well, since you've asked, I'll give you my two cents here. About six years ago I started down the path of hard drive based music. I had purchased an iPod, and had played around a bit with mp3, and was sold on the convenience of music on a drive, and wanted to have that same convenience from my primary system. But I did not want to sacrifice the least bit of sound quality.

So that starts with the source - how to extract every last one and zero from my cd's, and store them in a format that would be as space efficient as possible, without any loss of sound quality. That led me to Exact Audio Copy and FLAC.

Then there's the question of how to play that music on your hi-fi, and this is where the slippery slope begins......

After numerous sound card experiments, I can tell you that my opinion is you will never get analog sound quality out of a pc that can compare to a decent cd player. No matter how hard you try, there is just too much rf noise inside a pc to be able to push out a quality analog signal.

That leaves you with what most people who I know in the HTPC community do - use the digital output of your sound card into an external dac. Yes, you can make this sound good, but it's not as easy at it sounds. There's a lot of software resampling that goes on (in Windows at least) and it's very tricky to get a bit-perfect signal out of the digital output. Most people use foobar2000 as a player, but you need to use special drivers (asio4all or something like that) to bypass the Windows audio mixer, etc.

Long story short, it's a pain. That's what led me to use a Squeezebox. Squeezebox was originally built by a company called SlimDevices, which was then purchased by Logitech a few years back. I haven't regretted going to the Squeezebox one bit. It comes in several flavors, but basically it's an audio device that connects to your pc and streams the music from your hard drive into your hifi, or through it's own speakers (depending on the model). It's got decent sound quality out of the box, or there are mods out there to make it sound really, really good. You can also push it through a dac right out of the box and it'll sound great as well.

Check out www.logitechsqueezebox.com

I have four of them. I have two "Classics", one connected to my two channel rig and one connected to my home theater. Then I've got the "Radio" on my nightstand that I use for my clock radio, and I've got a "Boom" that I move all over my house wherever I feel like listening.

So the simple answer to your question is no, I don't use Signal Cable as a cord from my PC to my hi-fi, because I gave up on the PC as an audio source years ago. But I do use their power cords, speaker cable, and interconnects in my 2 channel system. When I switched to those from Monster, I was blown away by how much the sound improved.

Hope that gives you something to think about.

phuz

If you can, go wireless with Airtunes.

inspiredsports

bigaudiofanatic wrote: »

All you do is open itunes and under one of the tabs you turn OFF home sharing. That is all you have to do for not sharing anymore. Also if your network is locked you are fine anyway. Yes I have re ripped all my music and my neighbors who has over 700 albums. If your library is big and you do not have at least a 500 gb hard drive get one that is an external or even an internal as a slave.

Also spending that much for a cable.......not to be blunt but come on now. I am using a belkin extender cable and not sure what dollar store Y splitter works fine. But if you want to spend that much than that is your choice.

I just hate apps that remain resident in memory and waste resources, especially if they are internet enabled. I'll give iTunes another look.

As far as cables go, if it is possible to gain an improvement when they become the weakest link in the chain, (being blunt ) I WILL spend the money because I have this sick, sick, sick addiction . I've done so in spades for Power, IC and Speaker Interface Cables.

What I am questioning here is if the uncompressed MP3 format or the sound card are the weakest links, I won't be need to buy the best cable possible. If others are able to hear a difference by improving cabling, that's where I want to be.

bigaudiofanatic

I understand, itunes no matter how you cut it is the best way to manage your music. I know some might say otherwise but as far as I have seen and used there is no better. I hope you open the door up and give them a chance.

inspiredsports

phuz wrote: »

If you can, go wireless with Airtunes.

I could if I utilize the Mac, but I have just 1 Mac and 7 PC's on my home network so cables will be the most likely transport mode for a while. I also tend to hard-wire my network versus wireless for both security and other reasons.

There are more and more published studies just being released that contraindicate the bombardment the human brain with HF radiation.

I guess I should speak English. Cell Phones, Wireless Phones, Wireless Routers and related devices are being scrutinized by the medical community and may be bad for your health.

dorokusai

I love iTunes.

bigaudiofanatic

You can use airtunes with a pc lol you do not NEED a mac. Also FLAc is the same thing as apple lossless

inspiredsports

bigaudiofanatic wrote: »

I understand, itunes no matter how you cut it is the best way to manage your music. I know some might say otherwise but as far as I have seen and used there is no better. I hope you open the door up and give them a chance.

My mind is open. I am in the process of reinstalling as I write. I'll update when finished.

phuz

inspiredsports wrote: »

I could if I utilize the Mac, but I have just 1 Mac and 7 PC's on my home network so cables will be the most likely transport mode for a while. I also tend to hard-wire my network versus wireless for both security and other reasons.

There are more and more published studies just being released that contraindicate the bombardment the human brain with HF radiation.

I guess I should speak English. Cell Phones, Wireless Phones, Wireless Routers and related devices are being scrutinized by the medical community and may be bad for your health.

You don't need a mac to use airtunes. I don't use a Mac.

One really cool thing about it is that you can control your itunes with an ipod touch or iphone. I have two rigs set up with this, one in my home office and one in my living room, and it's just freaking cool to be able to do stuff around the house and wirelessly control itunes from wherever I am.

2.4ghz is all over. Unless you live in the sticks, a home wireless network is not going to cause you any more harm than your neighbors baby monitor, your microwave, chordless phones, etc. etc. etc. etc. And that's only 1 small freq. range. People would go nuts if they really knew what they were being subjected to 24/7.

inspiredsports

nspindel wrote: »

Well, since you've asked, I'll give you my two cents here. About six years ago I started down the path of hard drive based music. I had purchased an iPod, and had played around a bit with mp3, and was sold on the convenience of music on a drive, and wanted to have that same convenience from my primary system. But I did not want to sacrifice the least bit of sound quality.

So that starts with the source - how to extract every last one and zero from my cd's, and store them in a format that would be as space efficient as possible, without any loss of sound quality. That led me to Exact Audio Copy and FLAC.

Then there's the question of how to play that music on your hi-fi, and this is where the slippery slope begins......

After numerous sound card experiments, I can tell you that my opinion is you will never get analog sound quality out of a pc that can compare to a decent cd player. No matter how hard you try, there is just too much rf noise inside a pc to be able to push out a quality analog signal.

That leaves you with what most people who I know in the HTPC community do - use the digital output of your sound card into an external dac. Yes, you can make this sound good, but it's not as easy at it sounds. There's a lot of software resampling that goes on (in Windows at least) and it's very tricky to get a bit-perfect signal out of the digital output. Most people use foobar2000 as a player, but you need to use special drivers (asio4all or something like that) to bypass the Windows audio mixer, etc.

Long story short, it's a pain. That's what led me to use a Squeezebox. Squeezebox was originally built by a company called SlimDevices, which was then purchased by Logitech a few years back. I haven't regretted going to the Squeezebox one bit. It comes in several flavors, but basically it's an audio device that connects to your pc and streams the music from your hard drive into your hifi, or through it's own speakers (depending on the model). It's got decent sound quality out of the box, or there are mods out there to make it sound really, really good. You can also push it through a dac right out of the box and it'll sound great as well.

Check out www.logitechsqueezebox.com

I have four of them. I have two "Classics", one connected to my two channel rig and one connected to my home theater. Then I've got the "Radio" on my nightstand that I use for my clock radio, and I've got a "Boom" that I move all over my house wherever I feel like listening.

So the simple answer to your question is no, I don't use Signal Cable as a cord from my PC to my hi-fi, because I gave up on the PC as an audio source years ago. But I do use their power cords, speaker cable, and interconnects in my 2 channel system. When I switched to those from Monster, I was blown away by how much the sound improved.

Hope that gives you something to think about.

I've read your post, and also scoured the logitech site.

My goals are:
--- Listen to MP3's stored on a single hard drive
--- Use a 2 Ch system with SDA's in 1 room only
--- Get the best sound quality possible
--- Use wires (I'm not interested in wireless)

It looks like I will need to consider an external DAC no matter what to get the best fidelity (I do like what my tube buffers have to offer when placed in the path, but that's a slightly different discussion).

Other than consolidation, I think I'm missing what the best-quality $300 Transporter will do for me if I still need to consider a DAC. Why not just go straight through a DAC and skip the Logitech component?

inspiredsports

phuz wrote: »

You don't need a mac to use airtunes. I don't use a Mac.

One really cool thing about it is that you can control your itunes with an ipod touch or iphone. I have two rigs set up with this, one in my home office and one in my living room, and it's just freaking cool to be able to do stuff around the house and wirelessly control itunes from wherever I am.

2.4ghz is all over. Unless you live in the sticks, a home wireless network is not going to cause you any more harm than your neighbors baby monitor, your microwave, chordless phones, etc. etc. etc. etc. And that's only 1 small freq. range. People would go nuts if they really knew what they were being subjected to 24/7.

The features sound really cool and I may get there some day .

I do live in the country on 8.5 acres amongst other properties of similar size, no power lines or cell towers for miles, do not use wireless phones, use a wired headset on my cell phone for extended conversations or switch to my land line, stand clear of the microwave door, 7 PC's on my home network are cat6 wired, etc., etc.

I really am aware of what's out there and avoid it whenever possible. Call me crazy . . . whatever.

I'm old-school wired 2 Channel and hope to keep it that way

phuz

inspiredsports wrote: »

The features sound really cool and I may get there some day .

I do live in the country on 8.5 acres amongst other properties of similar size, no power lines or cell towers for miles, do not use wireless phones, use a wired headset on my cell phone for extended conversations or switch to my land line, stand clear of the microwave door, 7 PC's on my home network are cat6 wired, etc., etc.

I really am aware of what's out there and avoid it whenever possible. Call me crazy . . . whatever.

I'm old-school wired 2 Channel and hope to keep it that way

Not crazy at all. Very cool actually. I wish I had 8 acres!

I'd suggest an external DAC. I'm not familiar with any sound cards within a reasonable price that will give you the type of sound quality that a comparably priced external DAC would.

Do you have a hum when you run the analog output from your laptop to your preamp? I always did with my laptops in the past. You may want to search for an older (and very very cheap) m-audio USB sound device or something like it. That will keep the signal digital all the way to your DAC. My personal experience has led me to believe that keeping the signal digital as long as I can before it hits the DAC/pre is best. A long analog run is a lot more vulnerable to outside interference than digital.

I like itunes and winamp for playing audio files. For ripping, the previous suggestion of Exact Audio Copy with LAME is good.

vc69

I have a Cardas iPod cable. It sounds good but I just can't force myself to listen to mp3's. Now, if I have a few people over (or maybe just one), I have a computer connected via optical to serve up a playlist whilst I entertain. Very convenient.

bigaudiofanatic

inspiredsports wrote: »

I've read your post, and also scoured the logitech site.

My goals are:
--- Listen to MP3's stored on a single hard drive
--- Use a 2 Ch system with SDA's in 1 room only
--- Get the best sound quality possible
--- Use wires (I'm not interested in wireless)

It looks like I will need to consider an external DAC no matter what to get the best fidelity (I do like what my tube buffers have to offer when placed in the path, but that's a slightly different discussion).

Other than consolidation, I think I'm missing what the best-quality $300 Transporter will do for me if I still need to consider a DAC. Why not just go straight through a DAC and skip the Logitech component?

Get a apple tv and stream your music collection form any computer or download your library to the internal hard drive.

inspiredsports

bigaudiofanatic wrote: »

. . . all you do is open itunes and under one of the tabs you turn OFF home sharing . . .

I've reinstalled iTunes (current v.9.0.2.25).

"Home sharing" is not the fix. On boot, iTunes loads iTunes.exe (that's fine), but also "AppleMobileDeviceService.exe", "Bonjour.exe", "iTunesHelper.exe", "iPodService.exe" and "qttask.exe" into RAM memory.

You need to open msconfig.exe and un-check these unneeded memory wasters in the "Services" and "Startup" tabs, save and reboot to kill them.

Also, in iTunes, you can't simply "File/Open" a single MP3 without adding it to a library or playlist.

If you do navigate to an MP3 on your hard drive and tell it to "Open With" iTunes, iTunes arbitrarily adds that MP3 file to its default Playlist.

I will say that the iTunes equalizer does a nice job and the sound quality of its presets may be a few percentage points better than Media Player.

I'm not looking for a media management system. I just I have all of my MP3's nicely organized on my hard drive by artist, and simply want a way to access songs much in the way I would physically walk to my record shelf, select a vinyl LP, and carry it to my turntable.

Based upon that criteria, Media Player seems to me to be a simpler, more elegant solution.

inspiredsports

vc69 wrote: »

I have a Cardas iPod cable. It sounds good but I just can't force myself to listen to mp3's. Now, if I have a few people over (or maybe just one), I have a computer connected via optical to serve up a playlist whilst I entertain. Very convenient.

Ah, now this is truly why I love this forum!

I hadn't thought about the convenience of automation when it's not just me in the listening loop.

Slightly degraded sound for the ability to enjoy the party is a biggie, and a reason in itself for me to explore the iTunes playlist functionality.

inspiredsports

phuz wrote: »

Not crazy at all. Very cool actually. I wish I had 8 acres!

I'd suggest an external DAC. I'm not familiar with any sound cards within a reasonable price that will give you the type of sound quality that a comparably priced external DAC would.

Do you have a hum when you run the analog output from your laptop to your preamp? I always did with my laptops in the past. You may want to search for an older (and very very cheap) m-audio USB sound device or something like it. That will keep the signal digital all the way to your DAC. My personal experience has led me to believe that keeping the signal digital as long as I can before it hits the DAC/pre is best. A long analog run is a lot more vulnerable to outside interference than digital.

I like itunes and winamp for playing audio files. For ripping, the previous suggestion of Exact Audio Copy with LAME is good.

The sound quality is actually surprisingly good with absolutely no hum.

I've noticed the stats window and am finding most of my MP3's are 192 bps, with a few at 64, a few at 128, and a even few at 320 (these sound very, very good). The compression artifacts inherent to compressed versions of music are the only real problems.

The width and breadth of my soundstage are just a bit diminished, and the pinpoint imaging I'm used to is somewhat lacking.

I'm going to introduce a couple of different cables first, and then decide if I want to go further into software and DACS after that.

THANKS TO ALL WHO HAVE PITCHED IN.

I'VE LEARNED IN ONE EVENING WHAT WOULD HAVE TAKEN WEEKS TO LEARN BY MYSELF !!

vc69

inspiredsports wrote: »

Ah, now this is truly why I love this forum!

I hadn't thought about the convenience of automation when it's not just me in the listening loop.

Slightly degraded sound for the ability to enjoy the party is a biggie, and a reason in itself for me to explore the iTunes playlist functionality.

Yeah, it took some commitment to get the bulk of my collection ripped into my HTPC. I still have a long way to go, but have gotten most of the A-list stuff in there @ 256kbps.
It's totally listenable for background music, etc. and very handy when I have "better" things to do.

LessisNevermore

inspiredsports wrote: »

I've reinstalled iTunes (current v.9.0.2.25).

"Home sharing" is not the fix. On boot, iTunes loads iTunes.exe (that's fine), but also "AppleMobileDeviceService.exe", "Bonjour.exe", "iTunesHelper.exe", "iPodService.exe" and "qttask.exe" into RAM memory.

You need to open msconfig.exe and un-check these unneeded memory wasters in the "Services" and "Startup" tabs, save and reboot to kill them.

Also, in iTunes, you can't simply "File/Open" a single MP3 without adding it to a library or playlist.

If you do navigate to an MP3 on your hard drive and tell it to "Open With" iTunes, iTunes arbitrarily adds that MP3 file to its default Playlist.

I will say that the iTunes equalizer does a nice job and the sound quality of its presets may be a few percentage points better than Media Player.

I'm not looking for a media management system. I just I have all of my MP3's nicely organized on my hard drive by artist, and simply want a way to access songs much in the way I would physically walk to my record shelf, select a vinyl LP, and carry it to my turntable.

Based upon that criteria, Media Player seems to me to be a simpler, more elegant solution.

Inspired,
Try out Media Monkey. A couple guys here on CP turned me on to it, and it's a great iTunes replacement. You can manage your library as you see fit, sync your iPod, etc. basically everything iTunes does, without all the resource hogging and other annoyances.
http://www.mediamonkey.com/

I've tried WMP, and much prefer MM.

vc69

I have not tried media monkey but I have read good things about it. I use wmp and media library. Simple and functional. Drag and drop playlists, etc. It's not perfect but much better than iTunes for my uses. The only thing I use iTunes for is syncing my iPhone.
Having said that, I have several media players installed. VLC and Foobar2000 are excellent. Foobar has a library feature that may be useful. Both are free.

mmadden28

+1 for MediaMonkey, actually its recommended by David Chesky:

“Our buyers are serious audiophiles with large music collections in lossless audio formats such as FLAC,” said David Chesky, CEO of HDTracks.com. “MediaMonkey is the best music manager for our users. It supports all of the high-end features they require, without requiring them to be technically advanced.”

I'm also playing with the latest version of WinAmp, which also supports the iPod syncing now.

For my setup I use a Logitech Duet Squeezebox thru a Monarchy DAC and thru an MSB DAC for the outdoor speakers.
I have the iTunes folder setup as a source for the Squeezebox as well as the FLAC directory (managed by MediaMonkey).
And I use the same sources for streaming to my Roku radio (including FLAC)

While AAC is iTunes Lossless format, iTunes does not support FLAC or APE. I am using FLAC for all my lossless media--just seems to be more widely supported.

Here's an interesting player shootout (although a bit dated now)

Personally I don't want the noise of a PC anywhere near my listening area.

greg2350

I have been putting my music on hardrive for about 7 years now somewhere around 2,000 albums. I have tried many different sound cards including all the high end creative cards. roughly about 10 cards until I purchased the m-audio delta 1010lt card I could not beleive the improvement of SQ. I finally achieved the SQ from mp3 format I was looking for its a bit pricey but well worth it.
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Delta1010LT.html