Vibration elimination - It works
BlueFox
Posts: 15,251
While I do not have any problem with believing that speaker wire can make a difference in sound, and I have heard the improvement from upgrading my wire, I have had a hard time accepting the idea that reducing/eliminating vibrations from electronic equipment can make a difference.
Well, it can!!!
In my quest to help the economy I broke down and ordered 2 sets of Triple Points, and 1 set of Micro Point, brass footers from Mapleshade. So far, everything I have bought from them has resulted in an improvement, so I thought I would give the vibration control a try.
I isolated the CDP, DAC, and pre-amp, turned everything on, and was amazed at the improvement. The sound is so much clearer, articulate, and precise from both the CDP and the iPod/Wadia. They say vibration muddies the sound, and that is a good description. I am really impressed at the improvement from this tweak. Now I have to decide if it is worthwhile to add them to the amps.
The only drawback is now I have to buy some Brasso.
http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/audioproducts/heavyfoot_triplepoint_hub.php
Well, it can!!!
In my quest to help the economy I broke down and ordered 2 sets of Triple Points, and 1 set of Micro Point, brass footers from Mapleshade. So far, everything I have bought from them has resulted in an improvement, so I thought I would give the vibration control a try.
I isolated the CDP, DAC, and pre-amp, turned everything on, and was amazed at the improvement. The sound is so much clearer, articulate, and precise from both the CDP and the iPod/Wadia. They say vibration muddies the sound, and that is a good description. I am really impressed at the improvement from this tweak. Now I have to decide if it is worthwhile to add them to the amps.
The only drawback is now I have to buy some Brasso.
http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/audioproducts/heavyfoot_triplepoint_hub.php
Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits.
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits.
Post edited by BlueFox on
Comments
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Looks great and whats even better is that the sound is now sweeter.
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Yep, been doing the isolation thing since 2003.CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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Glad to hear these worked so well. I checked the price and these are spendy! One set costs more than my speaker cables!
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Why wouldn't the wood in the shelves be sufficient to reduce vibration? there is plenty of it. Also, it you wanted to reduce vibration wouldn't a rubber type compund work better than brass?Testing
Testing
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ken.paduch wrote: »Why wouldn't the wood in the shelves be sufficient to reduce vibration? there is plenty of it. Also, it you wanted to reduce vibration wouldn't a rubber type compund work better than brass?
You can feel the vibrations in the cabinet. As to whether something is better than brass I do not know. I know Mapleshade loves brass, and they say it works best. You are not far from Mapleshade. Why not drive over there and see what you can find out.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
Brass, rubber, Dynamat, air suspension, etc........it matters not as it all helps obtain the goal, isolation.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
You can feel the vibrations in the cabinet. As to whether something is better than brass I do not know. I know Mapleshade loves brass, and they say it works best. You are not far from Mapleshade. Why not drive over there and see what you can find out.
Good point. Have you used any other products form them?Testing
Testing
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ken.paduch wrote: »Good point. Have you used any other products form them?
Speaker wire, analog and digital ICs, maple speaker platforms, CD/DVD cleaner and polish. So far, every item has had a positive improvement. Of course, since I was going from 12 guage hardware store stranded copper, and inexpensive ICs probably any body's cables would have been an improvement. However, I like their non-traditional approach to cable design.
The vibration treatment works so well I am going to order Isoblocks for the amps, and a set of Micro Triplepoints for the power conditioner, and I am seriously considering buying the Samson v3 four shelf equipment rack for further vibration isolation.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
The Samson is nice, I would also recommend you look at the Adona and Billy Bags products rack products.
Anyway, the rack is looking good.
RT1 -
Speaker wire, analog and digital ICs, maple speaker platforms, CD/DVD cleaner and polish. So far, every item has had a positive improvement. Of course, since I was going from 12 guage hardware store stranded copper, and inexpensive ICs probably any body's cables would have been an improvement. However, I like their non-traditional approach to cable design.
The vibration treatment works so well I am going to order Isoblocks for the amps, and a set of Micro Triplepoints for the power conditioner, and I am seriously considering buying the Samson v3 four shelf equipment rack for further vibration isolation.
I see the potential for vibration affecting a turntable or a CD/DVD unit, how does vibration affect a unit without moving parts such as an amp or pre-amp?"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." Neil deGrasse Tyson. -
I see the potential for vibration affecting a turntable or a CD/DVD unit, how does vibration affect a unit without moving parts such as an amp or pre-amp?
That was my initial skepticism noted in the first post. I do not know how it works, but I now know that it does work. While I thought the system sounded pretty good, adding the brass footers took it to another level. It is that apparent, and is especially noticiable at higher listening levels.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
That was my initial skepticism noted in the first post. I do not know how it works, but I now know that it does work. While I thought the system sounded pretty good, adding the brass footers took it to another level. It is that apparent, and is especially noticiable at higher listening levels.
I understand you believe it works. I am interested to know if anyone can explain how removing vibration from an item that has no moving parts makes it sound better, other than say placebo or suggestion or."The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." Neil deGrasse Tyson. -
its been awhile since a reporting .....................anti hi-fi audio insurgent sighting
RT1 -
I understand you believe it works. I am interested to know if anyone can explain how removing vibration from an item that has no moving parts makes it sound better, other than say placebo or suggestion or.
There are all sorts of moving parts in electronics. Transformers and other windings, capacitors and wiring all change characteristics dynamicly when being vibrated. No big mystery here.
madmaxVinyl, the final frontier...
Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want...
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There are all sorts of moving parts in electronics. Transformers and other windings, capacitors and wiring all change characteristics dynamicly when being vibrated. No big mystery here.
madmax
Thanks for an answer. I was after this type of information, not useless comments that have nothing to do with my questions. Thanks madmax."The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." Neil deGrasse Tyson. -
its really very basic, so if you are a new to audio then I understand, thought your post was headed somewhere else with suggestion of placebo, personal belief, etc. when someone hears a difference then they do, empirical evidence in audio is the absolute.
Take my pre-amp as an example, the tube locations are selected specifically because their placement in the chassis is the spot with the lowest vibration nodes.
No problem though useless posts account for about 99% of RT1's history.
RT1 -
reeltrouble1 wrote: »its really very basic, so if you are a new to audio then I understand, thought your post was headed somewhere else with suggestion of placebo, personal belief, etc. when someone hears a difference then they do, empirical evidence in audio is the absolute.
Take my pre-amp as an example, the tube locations are selected specifically because their placement in the chassis is the spot with the lowest vibration nodes.
No problem though useless posts account for about 99% of RT1's history.
RT1
Thanks for a great response. I'm one of the many on this forum who got a late start on this journey so I'm going to have stupid questions from time to time. If you ask enough stupid questions you become smarter in my experience."The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." Neil deGrasse Tyson. -
Our house is slab concrete construction, so I just have air-borne vibration to deal with. I had a set of high hats and triple points about 5 years ago from Mapleshade; they worked quite well with my CD Player (C.E.C. CD-3300). Couldn't hear any difference with any other component though. The high hats are every bit as important as the spiked feet BTW...Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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I see the potential for vibration affecting a turntable or a CD/DVD unit, how does vibration affect a unit without moving parts such as an amp or pre-amp?
When it comes to something as small as the electrons that compose an audio signal, there is no such thing as "no moving parts" due to the natural, persistent vibration of atoms and molecules in a conductor.
Vibration damping devices work on the principle of absorbing and transforming one form of energy into another. Some materials merely change the frequency of vibrational energy to a less detrimental frequency. Other materials change vibrational energy to heat.
Things in motion have kinetic energy. This additional kinetic energy, when added to the kinetic energy of electrons moving through a wire, adds noise and actually adds a but of impediment to the flow of energy (signal). If you are familiar with "super conductors", you know that resistance to current flow is reduced dramatically when the temperature is reduced. As a conductor's temperature is reduced, its natural molecular and atomic vibrations are reduced and current flow is enhanced. Conversely, as a conductor's temperature is increased, its natural molecular and atomic vibrations are increased and current flow is diminished.
A simplified analogy would be thinking of the audio signal as "skipping" from one atom to another as it flows through a conductor. Imagine the added difficulty experienced by the signal in "skipping" from one atom to another if the conductive atoms are in rapid random motion.ken.paduch wrote: »Why wouldn't the wood in the shelves be sufficient to reduce vibration? there is plenty of it. Also, it you wanted to reduce vibration wouldn't a rubber type compund work better than brass?
To reduce vibrational energy, we want to absorb (trap) and dispose of it. The only way to dispose of vibration is to change it to another form of energy. Wood, in its untreated state, is better at reflecting vibration (energy) back into the environment rather than absorbing it, which is why wood panels aren't used for sound insulation or vibration damping. Composite materials and metals make excellent vibration damping materials due to their ability to absorb vibrational energy and transform it into heat.
Rubber, unless it is specially treated, is not a good material for reducing vibration in audio systems because it absorbs and re-emits (reflects) vibrational energy at a lower frequency rather than trapping and converting the energy to heat.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
DarqueKnight wrote: »When it comes to something as small as the electrons that compose an audio signal, there is no such thing as "no moving parts" due to the natural, persistent vibration of atoms and molecules in a conductor.
Vibration damping devices work on the principle of absorbing and transforming one form of energy into another. Some materials merely change the frequency of vibrational energy to a less detrimental frequency. Other materials change vibrational energy to heat.
Things in motion have kinetic energy. This additional kinetic energy, when added to the kinetic energy of electrons moving through a wire, adds noise and actually adds a but of impediment to the flow of energy (signal). If you are familiar with "super conductors", you know that resistance to current flow is reduced dramatically when the temperature is reduced. As a conductor's temperature is reduced, its natural molecular and atomic vibrations are reduced and current flow is enhanced. Conversely, as a conductor's temperature is increased, its natural molecular and atomic vibrations are increased and current flow is diminished.
A simplified analogy would be thinking of the audio signal as "skipping" from one atom to another as it flows through a conductor. Imagine the added difficulty experienced by the signal in "skipping" from one atom to another if the conductive atoms are in rapid random motion.
To reduce vibrational energy, we want to absorb (trap) and dispose of it. The only way to dispose of vibration is to change it to another form of energy. Wood, in its untreated state, is better at reflecting vibration (energy) back into the environment rather than absorbing it, which is why wood panels aren't used for sound insulation or vibration damping. Composite materials and metals make excellent vibration damping materials due to their ability to absorb vibrational energy and transform it into heat.
Rubber, unless it is specially treated, is not a good material for reducing vibration in audio systems because it absorbs and re-emits (reflects) vibrational energy at a lower frequency rather than trapping and converting the energy to heat.
Thats the best response I have heard. Thanks!Testing
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I need to get some of these for my cdp but i can't afford the ones listed here. Just a bit out of my range.Living Room Rig:D
Rotel RSP-1069/Rotel RMB-1095/Rotel-1072/Polk lsI15's W/modded xoverW/DBsubs/Polk LsiC/lsI7's/Klipsch sub-12"the weak link"/DLP Mitsubishi 65"
Xbox360/PS3/WII
M.Br. setup:)
Emotiva MMC-1/Rotel RMB-1075/Polk BlackStone TL350's/Velodyne SPL1000/Samsung 51" Plasma
Computer Rig:
Rotel RB1050/Tannoy DC4's/Klipsch RW-10d/ImodIpod/HK AVR230 for now....
Headphones-Ultrasone-HFI780's w/LittleDot MK Vamp Portables Panasonic HJE-900's -
DK has a way with words. It's called knowledge and experience.Michael
In the beginning, all knowledge was new!
NORTH of 60° -
ken.paduch wrote: »Thats the best response I have heard. Thanks!
However, I think the description of mechanical vibrations being of the same nature as thermal vibrations is in error. Mechanical vibration will move the material (metallic crystal) at a macro scale probably 5 or 6 orders of magnitude greater than the dimension of the atoms/ions in the material. And only a miniscule portion of the vibrational energy will be converted to thermal as the vibration passes through.
Anyways, I don't claim to be an expert. But I am an engineer and that's my understanding of the physics involved. Also not refuting the benefit of vibration dampening either. I think madmax's explanation may be more accurate.SystemLuxman L-590AXII Integrated Amplifier|KEF Reference 1 Loudspeakers|PS Audio Directream Jr|Sansui TU-9900 Tuner|TEAC A-6100 RtR|Nakamichi RX-202 Cassette -
TouchOfEvil wrote: »I need to get some of these for my cdp but i can't afford the ones listed here. Just a bit out of my range.
Check out Bright Star Audio.CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint. -
Jetmaker737 wrote: »I think madmax's explanation may be more accurate.
Actually, the information I provided is supplementary to, and in full agreement with, what Madmax said.
The interested reader can use what has been posted here as a starting point for further study.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
TouchOfEvil wrote: »I need to get some of these for my cdp but i can't afford the ones listed here. Just a bit out of my range.
Here's another alternative that looks similar to Mapleshade products, here. -
Here's another alternative that looks similar to Mapleshade products, here.
Very nice, thank you for the link kind sir!;)
I will also do some diggin on the Bright Stars thanks Doro!Living Room Rig:D
Rotel RSP-1069/Rotel RMB-1095/Rotel-1072/Polk lsI15's W/modded xoverW/DBsubs/Polk LsiC/lsI7's/Klipsch sub-12"the weak link"/DLP Mitsubishi 65"
Xbox360/PS3/WII
M.Br. setup:)
Emotiva MMC-1/Rotel RMB-1075/Polk BlackStone TL350's/Velodyne SPL1000/Samsung 51" Plasma
Computer Rig:
Rotel RB1050/Tannoy DC4's/Klipsch RW-10d/ImodIpod/HK AVR230 for now....
Headphones-Ultrasone-HFI780's w/LittleDot MK Vamp Portables Panasonic HJE-900's -
DarqueKnight wrote: »The interested reader can use what has been posted here as a starting point for further study.
Agreed! And thank you to the OP for this thread. I had not thought about dampening before but I think it may be useful for my Jolida CDP.
You can get unfinished but planed maple shelves from mapleshade for $50-$75:
http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/audioproducts/platforms_rtb.php
Then get your brass from edensound:
http://vermontaudio.com/index.htmlSystemLuxman L-590AXII Integrated Amplifier|KEF Reference 1 Loudspeakers|PS Audio Directream Jr|Sansui TU-9900 Tuner|TEAC A-6100 RtR|Nakamichi RX-202 Cassette -
Jetmaker737 wrote: »Then get your brass from edensound:
http://vermontaudio.com/index.html
I like that there is competition in this area. Makes me think there might be something to this brass thing.Here's another alternative that looks similar to Mapleshade products, here.
One point is the brass item listed above is the smallest one they offer. Mapleshade also has smaller models at lower prices.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
Jetmaker737 wrote: »However, I think the description of mechanical vibrations being of the same nature as thermal vibrations is in error. Mechanical vibration will move the material (metallic crystal) at a macro scale probably 5 or 6 orders of magnitude greater than the dimension of the atoms/ions in the material. And only a miniscule portion of the vibrational energy will be converted to thermal as the vibration passes through.
Anyways, I don't claim to be an expert. But I am an engineer and that's my understanding of the physics involved. Also not refuting the benefit of vibration dampening either. I think madmax's explanation may be more accurate.
As a fellow engineer, I too will have to throw up a flag. Mechanic vibrations and temperature (kinetic energy of molecules) do not follow the same math and theory. I'm not arguing against isolation benefits but I don't think a comparison can be made between temperature and mechanical vibrations like that.
