More TT business

phipiper10

OK, got my Rega P3 all set up now and have spun a few records - some sound better than others for sure! Currently running through my Onkyo TX-NR901R phono input. I have a MF v-LPS v3 on the way.

I'm expecting this phono pre (While inexpensive) coupled with being routed through the Anthem is really going to raise the SQ level.

Thanks for the words on cleaning and so on, I'm further along in geekdom and record cleaning than I ever intended. I already purchased some Triton x-114.

I do have a question and that's if there is some general guideline for how much you'd spend on a cartridge or pre vs the table?

Are we talking equal costs here for each or is buying a cartridge that costs more than the table silly? I'm sure we are just talking about diminishing returns at some point.

Should I be thinking of cartridges in the same way different tubes might impact an amp/preamp or is there more to be gained with nice cartridge.

Not looking for a "right" answer just any opinions.

Thanks.

madmax

These are only my experiences, ymmv.

There is a lot to gain with a more expensive cartridge. I started out with a $400 one, moved up to a $1200 then finally to a $3K one. They were big leaps. The first one had major annoyances and was a little rough around the edges. The second one cleaned up most everything. At that point I was happy until I went to a guys house and heard a really expensive Benz cartridge. The next week I bought a $3K Benz. It seems insane to me today to spend that much but I would have to do it again if something happened to my current one. The leap here was that along with no rough edges and a really good sound all of a sudden I could hear the music dancing around. It became holigraphic. I could visualize the music running around in front of me dropping fairy dust all over the room. This is when I found out how good vinyl really is. With something like the P3 I'd stay under the $1200 mark.

But, do what you can reasonably afford over all else. I've gotten too deep into it at this point and if something breaks I will have a hard time coming up with the dollars to fix it and won't be happy with a lesser sound quality.

As for preamps, I've had several. Things start getting interesting over about $1500. That is when they start doing almost everything right and add drama and excitement while still getting everything right. My current pre is the Manley Steelhead. It is awesome but I could live with a lot less if necessary. You give up one thing or another as you drop under $3K and almost everything else as you drop below $1K. This isn't to say you wouldn't be happy with anything under $1K, just that you will notice the flaws a lot more and it will only do a few things really well.

Hope that helps you put things in perspective.
madmax

Ricardo

Be warned. That fairy dust (nice way of putting it Chuck) can be very expensive, and the best approach is to NEVER go listen someone else's expensive rig, or you're doomed.

Get a decent cartridge and phono pre and be happy with what you have (yeah...sure.)

dkg999

I'll throw out a slightly contentious comment. Clean records make a huge difference. If you have decent cart, pre, system, I would spend my money on record cleaning first, then start deciding on what else to upgrade. I don't have very expensive TT gear (Sumiko #2 cart, Pro-ject Tube Box II SE pre) however until I started getting my records clean and could hear all they were capable of, I'm not sure spending more on other upgrades would of been a good idea. JMHO.

phipiper10

Well, no vpi 16.5 yet....but in my dreams i see one . For now Disc Doctor and distilled water as a rinse. I'm figuring this out. I've cleaned a few and some records sound really good and a few others I wonder if there is any help or if another wash would help them out.

I've read lot's of folks methods and home made solutions for cleaning when the DD solution runs out it will be the triton/distilled/alcohol combo.

After the initial cleaning how frequently would you clean the records. They are now in MOFI anti static sleeves. Then just a few times around with Audioquest Antistatic brush.

I've yet to "double clean" any of the albums - a double rinse yes. When I get the process refined a bit more it should go faster and I'll be more likely to wash them all again. Waiting on a couple of things to help me here.

Thanks again - I see a nicer cartridge and phono but not to 3k yet!

madmax

DKG makes an excellent point which I followed as well, got all the cleaning tools under my belt before going too far. And don't forget the music collection. What good is a hundred trillion dollar system if you only have a collection of 50 records of which 20 of them probably don't sound that good and 10 you just don't like. I would pick up a few thousand records for a dollar each before upgrading the equipment.
madmax

Edit: BTW, I suggested dollar a record prices, that is because the majority of my favorites were fairly unknown artists of various genres which normally I would have never thought to listen to. Funny how it works out. There is so much music out there...

phipiper10

"Sound" advice about the cleaning and that's my plan too. Refine my cleaning efforts - sounds like the vacuum guys are fans of vacuuming. So might have to figure that angle out.


I can tell you so far of the 20 albums or so I've heard Willie Dixon sounds excellent and if there is more of where this came from I could be quite satisfied with vinyl.

TroyD

Yup, I don't care how much you spend on the hardware...if the vinyl isn't clean, then it's an exercise in futility. I've dicked around with a lot of lesser things, but the VPI 16.5...and a steam cleaner are a MUST have.

Me thinks that if I had money to spend on a better cartridge or a better phono stage...I'm going cartridge.

BDT

hearingimpared

I'm in the "better cartridge" and VPI 16.5 camp.

Dawgfish

The others here have given great advice. Concentrating on cleaning your records is definitely first priority. I basically use the same cleaning methods as Keiko and have great results, but it is a lot of work. I would like to get a vacuum type cleaner here soon. KAB USA makes a low cost one that uses a Nitty Gritty head and platform with a attachment that you hook up the hose attachment from a standard household upright to. It is less than half the price of the VPI and Nitty Gritty machines. Check out this link for details: www.kabusa.com.

Cartidges can make a profound difference in sound. I've read several articles that have stated that changing cartridges results in bigger changes in overall sound in a sytem than just about any other change. From my experience this is true. Like anything, you usually get what you pay for. The expensive cartridges out there do make a profound difference. Having said that, you don't have to break the bank to get good sound. Synergy is the key to any good audio system. I would look for a cartridge that compliments the sound of your current system. If your system is already a bit on the forward side, you don't want to match it with a cartridge that is known for being forward or a bit bright. Match it with a warmer cartridge instead and vice versa.

I am running a Denon DL-160 cartridge on a used Technics SL-1200 that I spent $150 bucks for plus a few other tweeks and could not be happier with the sound. At first I thought the cart lacked detail in the very upper highs, but after changing my phono cables, getting a good clamp, and changing out the mat, it woke up. It just goes to show you don't necesarily have to spend a fortune to get good sound, even though I know those high dollar tables and carts would be amazing. Experimenting with this stuff is fun, enjoy the journey!

phipiper10

Got my suction cups en route from Napa! Thanks for the links.

sTiLlLeArNiNg

I'm lovin' my Dual 505-3 with a Shure m97xe ATM I have a few mod's planned for it in the future which should make it sound better I personaly feel that there is a lot to be had in the setup of the TT

We just got our VPI 16.5 yesterday and i should have it set-up on the weeend! Can't wait to hear what kind of difference it make's as opposed to standard/basic cleaning method's....

I agree with the comment's made about clean album's and gathering a collection before going broke gathering equipment

Vinyl RULE's!!!

EDIT: Can anyone tell me which type alcohol is preffered for cleaning album's? I have access to one which is 99% isopropyl and 1% water and the other contain's 95% Ethanol anhydrous and other ingredient's are Benzyl benzoate, diethylpthalate and somethiong else that escaped my crappy picture taking skill's lol

Thank's

TSWisla

A 16.5 will make you very, very happy. Do not upgrade the cart yet. Be warned, as others have already mentioned, after you see how good a clean records sounds, you will start to make other upgrades to improve further. Good luck.

sTiLlLeArNiNg

TSWisla wrote: »

A 16.5 will make you very, very happy. Do not upgrade the cart yet. Be warned, as others have already mentioned, after you see how good a clean records sounds, you will start to make other upgrades to improve further. Good luck.

I heard/read a lot of good thing's about the 16.5 and i have found a few album deal's locally, as such the "collection" is growing so we (my pop's and i) decided it would be a good investment I made a few attempt's at cleaning using a microfiber cloth and distilled water/alcohol mix and did notice some improvement but i'm shure the VPI will be leap's and bound's ahead compared to that method I was also informed that i could use a steamer (which i happen to have) so i also have that option to try out in the future! I was thinking to use the VPI to clean the really dirty one's and then use the lesser method's for the not so dirty one's and as maintenance

I have no intention of changing the cart anytime soon. As of right now i think the m97xe is a great match for this table and my system, at least it sound's good to me anyways! lol I much preffer this cart over the ortofon om10 that was previously installed I hear the ortofon 2m red is a good cart for the money and there is a low hour one for sale locally @ $90 IIRC but i'm looking to add more to the vinyl collection right now, not the cart collection lol

So far i have added some dynamat to the inside/bottom of the plinth to help with resonance and i'm looking for material's to make isolator's/riser's for the bottom of the table and the rest of my equipment. Sometime during the winter i plan on rewiring the tonearm with some Cardas wire and replacing the the clip's and jumper's for the cart on the end of the tonearm. Luckily i found a place locally that sell's these supplies and they are also cryo treated so they should provide a noticeable improvement over the 20+ year old stock wiring/connector's lol

I think it's worth the investment seeing as i only paid $100 for the TT/om10 (both near mint) and $75 for the m97xe (max 10hrs) and $75 for a proper tune-up/cart install

TroyD

I'd recommend cleaning every record on the VPI prior to playing...

BDT

Hawkeye

So if I get this right, the record is still dirty if there are snaps and crackles in quiet passages of music? I've tried most of the potions described here and I still have some snap, crackle and pop on a test record which has no visible signs of scratching.

Not one from you George!

Gordon

reeltrouble1

well when a record gets played you can imagine the friction created by the tip making contact with the groove, the heat generated can actually cause the vinyl to lose its integrity and allow for anything in the groove to now become a part of the groove, you cannot wash this away or see it with your eyes alone, so if the record was played dirty or with a damaged stylus the groove can be permanently damaged, just deal with it best you can until a better vinyl of the album can be acquired.

furthermore, sometimes records were just poorly pressed, mostly, not allowed to cool properly and you end up with anomolies, when you hear the crackle at the start of a record and then it subsides is an example, remember technology has increased ten-fold for playback, easy to hear things.

of course all records will wear, some folks put additives on the record to slow the process such as the Last products, others believe the additives dull the sound, in any event a worn record will have sound anomolies.

RT1

dkg999

I've found that my cleaning process will do an amazing job of cleaning up used records. I have very few that aren't close to dead quiet when I'm done. As RT1 said, nothing will fix a worn, damaged, or flawed pressing. You just get it the best you can and if you really like it then start looking for a better copy. I'm also in the camp that thinks you clean it really well when you acquire it and then only use the AQ carbon fiber or Hunt brush when you play it. Maybe do a quick reclean on the RCM every so often. I try not to let my OCD run rampant beyond the initial cleaning.

For records with pops, ticks, noise after the initial cleaning regimen, I've found that MFSL Super Deep cleaner is a great last resort for getting them quiet. You have to leave it on the surface for about 15 min, but if it doesn't clean up the remaining noise, then they go in the discard pile.

madmax

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

when a record gets played you can imagine the friction created by the tip making contact with the groove, the heat generated can actually cause the vinyl to lose its integrity and allow for anything in the groove to now become a part of the groove, you cannot wash this away or see it with your eyes alone, so if the record was played dirty or with a damaged stylus the groove can be permanently damaged
RT1

So, you do not want to play a record that is dirty, period. I was going to bring this up but the wise one beat me to it. This is the reason I broke down and bought the VPI before I played a lot of vinyl. I use the VPI for everything when I first get it. I use the steamer on everything now that I see how much more gunk it can get off.

madmax

One cool thing about surface noise which I didn't understand when I first started is that with different carts, settings, arms and tables you can move the noise around. It can be centered in your listening area where you can not ignore it or be tucked behind a speaker, way in the background or even off to the side somewhere where you don't notice it. My first setup put it right in front of me and I immediately remembered why CD's seemed so nice. Luckily an old guru who doesn't visit here anymore told me about it and urged me to continue my quest. Otherwise I would have headed back to CD's.
madmax

phipiper10

I recleaned some records for a second time now and there is an improvement without question. In addition I received the Shure tracking weight gauge. Elys2 cartridge recommended 1.75gm. I had to turn the bias on the arm up to a full 2.0g before reaching the recommended 1.75gms on the shure. Things have most definitely cleared up. Some etching sound has been removed and dropping the needle onto the record is a smoother process than it was previously.

Next up is calibrating with a test LP and hopefully the MF phono pre arrives soon.

I'm already over questioning myself on my purchase - good stuff!

sTiLlLeArNiNg

What cart are you using?

phipiper10

It's a Rega Elys 2. This is the standard cartridge for the Rega P3-24.