Green newbie needs help!!!

Systems

Hello all,

I've been doing some research, but I'm still REALLY lost!

I've purchased a Kenwood KMD-44 minidisc receiver. It has 22 watts RMS/45 watts peak x 4 channels and I want to totally revamp my car audio system. I have a 2001 Suzuki Gran Vitara with a factory system. It can seat six, but we usually use it for 3-4 with luggage in the back.

In terms of what to get, I'm thinking of component speakers for the front, but I don't know what to do for the back seats. Should I get components for the back area as well?

Would Coaxials work for the back area?

If I get components for the front (and the back if that is possible), would I need a subwoofer? I'm concerned about space for a subwoofer since we're having a baby in June, so I can't take away to much regarding luggage room.

What would be the best type of amp to get? I'm thinking a 4 channel amp for the sound I enjoy. I listen to a wide variety of music, and I like to be able to play it on the louder end now and again.

I'm looking to spend around $700.00 for the speakers and amp. A lower price would be great, but quality and the ability for future add-ons is of a higher precedence.

Any help is HIGHLY appreciated!


Thank you all for your time!!

Santiago

PoweredByDodge

well -- in short -- components are essential in my mind -- once u listen to a set of comps instead of a set of coaxials you just sit there going "why did i ever use coaxials in front ???"

Polk EXIII comps are like 220 -- hunt ebay for a price 2/3 of that.

You can do coaxials in the back -- I mean this system is for you, not your rear passengers ... chances are, they'll be your kid(s) in which case they'll be like "dad i hate your music" -- lol.

and the rear is mainly meant for "fill" at about 1/2 power of what the front runs at --- for proper sound imaging. so coaxials are the way to go... kenwood excelon / pioneer TSD (rev series) / or polk EXIII's. all will run you like 150-ish.

so we're up to 370

need an amp --- 75 x 4 sounds about right... keeping it reasonable, I suggest a USAcoustics -- no they're not grade A, but they're not bad at all... and they're about half the price of more expensive 4 channel amps, while still doing like "80%" as good of a job. US Acoustics USB 4085 - 180 bucks @ crutchfield.com -- and they've got a 3 yr warranty i believe so if it dies -- they fix it.

550 total.

as far as a sub - i'd do one. they're almost critical to the "really goodness" of a car.

A VERY good sub all around and its really inexpensive is the JBL GT120 -- 99 bucks at crutchfield or 75 at sounddomain.com -- 250watts rms / 1000 max -- built with a tough rubber surround and poly cone.

US Acoustics USB-2080 -- 90 bucks at crutchfield... does 280x1 bridged.

you're total with subs and two amps is -- 715

add a wiring kit for it all for 50 --- a box for the sub for 25 -- pushin 800 ... you can bolt the amps to the sub box and then you've got like a 1 foot by 1 foot by 1 cube in your back end which aint to bad.

Jstas

You might want to add a couple hundred bucks or less for patch cables. Good one retail will be at least 60 bucks a piece but you find really nice ones for 60 bucks a piece from a wholesaler or distributor. The really nice ones can cost you upwards of 80 bucks a pair.

Santi

Any recommendations or things to avoid regarding the patch cables??


Thanks!!!!


you guys are lifesavers!!1

PoweredByDodge

I'm not quite sure how these are but I have been like a real hard **** when it came to patch cables for a while now -- and i will violently refuse to use anything but "good ****".

my "base level" was always something like a streetwires 3.5 -- twisted pair construction / heavy jacket / metal foil shield.

Stinger has a "Hyper Series" set that is actually (on paper) a little better than that... I'm ordering two pair within 5 days so I should have them within 10, and I'll let you know how they are in comparision to "the good stuff".

Reason being -- they were $10.50 for a 12 foot long run.

If they perform nearly as well as the SW 3.5's then I think they're a great buy - as the 3.5's went for like 60 bucks for a 15 foot run.

maybe its just me but looking online i'm finding that stinger makes good gear and at low prices.

the verdict is still out but ya'll know me i'll be ranting "they suck" or "they're the best thing since sliced bread" as soon as i get them

If they're doody -- considering you're not running a large power cable ( u can do 4 awg ) and your gear can be localized rather than scattered - which would mean more wire , more chance for interference) you can probably get away with mid-grade patch cables as opposed to the more premium ones. -- Monster cable's got 15 foot runs for like 25 bucks... SW ZN 2.5's are like 14 bucks for 15 ft. I've even seen cars with the old doody Musica Series (they were a nightmare but like 9 bucks for 15 ft) and had little to no hiss and sounded almost as good as better quality stuff.

Santi

I've seen some 4 channel and 2 channel Stingrays on ebay ranging from $10-$30 and from 6ft - 20ft. Would the 4 channels work for me?

Jstas

Yes, a 4 channel set of wires would work because you have a 4 channel amp. however, if you get teh stereo amp for teh sub too, you are going to need patch cables that go from the 4 channel to the 2 channel amp too.

Like PBD said, there are many different options. Personally, I have had much experience with EM and RF interference in vehicles and I'm no longer satisfied with anything less than a Streewires ZN 5.0 or 6.0 and they are expensive. My patch cables for my truck cost me $225. I got them retail but I've seen them as low as 48 bucks for the ZN 6.0's at Sound domain. defintly worth it there. But since I started using ZN 6.0 cables, I have had no noise issues except through the tape deck. That is prom the tape head picking up RF and EM intereference.

Now I use my old ZN 3.0 wires on my home stereo. Well, those and the ZN 2.0. The ZN 2.0's are neon purple!

Oh, BTW, ZN meanse Zero Noise and its a line of patch cables from Streetwires. Very nice stuff but expensive. You do get what you pay for from Streetwires though and I'd recommend any of thier products to anyone.

PoweredByDodge

the purple did look pretty cool.

Santi

So if I went with the Streetwires zn 5.0 how many sets of cables would I need? I'm thinking 8 (one for each channel per amp, one to connect the amps, and one to connect the receiver)? Is that correct or did I miss something?

What about length? Should I just blanket all wires with 6 foot lengths or will the 3' or 1.5' work?

Thanks again

Santiago

Jstas

Um, patch cables come in pairs. You only have to buy 3 sets of cables. I can't tell you how long your cables have to be nor can anyone else here. The length is dictated by where you mount your amplifier in relation to you signal source (radio). If 6 feet will work then go with 6 feet. However, remember that you have a fairly long vehicle with a fairly tall dash too. 6 feet may make a stretch in a straight line to the amp from the head unit but, in reality, you have to snake it down through the dash, under the carpet, along the side of the vehicle, past the seats and then to your amplifier. You may need as long as 16 feet. Its better to have a tad too much than not enough too. As far as the amp to amp patch cable, again, that depends on where you mount the sub amp in relation to the full-range amp.

You can go and try to buy single RCA cables but you will most likely end up with video cable and that is not what you want. Also, Streetwires doesn't make the ZN 5.0 anymore. If you can find them, they are old stock so they should be cheap. You are probably going to be able to find the ZN 6.0's instead which are the 5.0 replacements. However, you only need 1 pair for teh front channels and one pair for the rear channels and then one pair for the amp-amp connection. That's 3 pairs of cables and they all come in left/right configuration. You don't need 8 cables. You aren't connecting the RCA cables to the speakers either if that is what you are thinking. They only carry a digital signal to the amplifiers where the signal is processed, amplified and sent to the speakers through the speaker wires.

BTW, its a bit more expensive but I recoomend 12 guage wire for your speaker wires.

PoweredByDodge

you'll run you pair from your head unit -- each unit that you buy has a right and left -- thats the pair -- you'll need two pair one for the highs, one for the subs.

from the dash to behidn the back seat -- figure what 12 - 15 feet?

for the 4 chanel amp, use a 2 dollar Y splitter to split the left front and rear / right front and rear.

so two pair of 12 -15 foot will do it.

5.0's are $$$ tho -- those are like 85 bucks each if u can even find them for the 12 ft.

PoweredByDodge

get a big old hunk of yarn / string and run it from the location of yoru radio at the dash, straight down, over / under any bumps whatever, all the way back to where you'll mount your amp(s)... make sure to leave yoruself slack where it looks like you'll need it... add a foot to that -- that's the length you'll probably need.

Jstas

Originally posted by PoweredByDodge
you'll run you pair from your head unit -- each unit that you buy has a right and left -- thats the pair -- you'll need two pair one for the highs, one for the subs.

from the dash to behidn the back seat -- figure what 12 - 15 feet?

for the 4 chanel amp, use a 2 dollar Y splitter to split the left front and rear / right front and rear.

so two pair of 12 -15 foot will do it.

5.0's are $$$ tho -- those are like 85 bucks each if u can even find them for the 12 ft.

I may be mistaken but I do believe that his head unit has front and rear pre-amp outs so he wouldn't need a splitter. Besides, a splitter would just add noise and if doesn't need to use it, he shouldn't.

PoweredByDodge

well there are two schools of thought.

one says you should use a dedicated output for your subwoofers, and if your head only has two outs, then the rear is the subs hte front is the highs (you adjust fade with the front / rear gain on the 4 channel).

the other says what you're sayin -- front and rear to 4 ch amp and then the sum out to the sub amp.

personally i prefer using the head's fader as a "balance" between subs and highs -- fade one rear on most stuf -- fade even on rap / heavy bass.

i suppose those little bass knob things that they make that plug into the amp like a phone chord would work too... but those have a lifespan of about a week then the suppressor dies and its worthless.

ideally you'd ahve the front/ rear / non fading sub out --- but i have one problem with those -- the sub out is unadjsuted signal -- if you raise your bass adjustment or kick in the bbe or do any other sort of deck sponsored processing, it is not picked up by the sub out... which just throws the BBE to waste because it screws with phase a little.

if somebody wants to build a deck with three TRUE preouts each with a 0 - 20 independant level adjustment, all subject to the deck's processing unless the user chooses to defeat that feature, then that would be cool as hell.

CPHILHOWER

PBD, I used Scosche EFX rca in my Escape. Got a good deal on them at (My favorite place) WWW.PARTSEXPRESS.COM
These are thick wires and a real pain to hide under trim panels. They feature 4 strands twisted together. Used them in my previous car as well. However I paid a whole lot more then. The main problem I find with made rca's is the length choices. My 2 pair of 12' barely reached the stereo amp. I had to use a right angle adapter for the rear channels. The one for the sub amp is 17' and is excessively long. Wished I couldve got 2 13' and a 15'.
Chris

CPHILHOWER

PBD, What I would really like to see is this. Fiber-Optic connections from the headunit to the amps. Best for signal to noise out of all wires.
Chris

PoweredByDodge

hey chris -- check this -- i saw scosche efx for like 9 bucks at soundomain -- but they only came in like 6 foot lengths or something - i think they're cutting their line of scosche stuff and they're on clearance and thats all thats left.

speakin of fiberoptic and what not...

Zapco Symbilink -- now THAT is a hell of a pre-amp input setup. talk about the absolute cleanest stuff next to optical cable.

I'm tryin to think who it is -- I think it was Fosgate with some high end patch cable that came by the foot -- you could buy it like 7 bucks a foot and then 20 bucks for a set of ends or something... it was all red with silver ends -- sposed to be good stuff - only good thign was the variable length.

knukonceptz, lightning, and stinger still sell it by teh foot for the low end cables. i think dream series too.

CPHILHOWER

PBD, I try to stay away from Sound Domain. Have not had a good experience lately. Took the order for the Power 550x. It was UA and I was never notified. I had to call them a week later to find that out. At least they didnt charge me for it.
Chris

Santi

I did some research on the kmd-44 and it has rear rca preouts, but there was nothing said about front preouts. Get the y-splitter??

Santi

....posting to my own reply; I'm most positive I'll have to invest in a y-splitter.

PoweredByDodge

it only has one set of preouts????

that is hard to belive on a modern deck, but if its true then you're kinda in a jam.

You can "split" a preout once, but twice is kind of -- well -- i dunno... it doesn't always work well... you split it once and it sounds as good as a "whole" line, you split it twice and for some reason it just sounds like doody all around. Least that's been my experience...

if you really want to do a 4 channel AND a 2 channel, you may have to invest in either A) new deck w/ at least dual outs or a line driver (costs as much/more than a deck). line driver ups your preout voltage from like 2 or 4 up to 8 or 16. -- you can split a 16 like 8 times without problems.

I'm thinkin maybe do something more simple and easy -- like finding a 5 channel amp -- i'm not sure who makes one anymore, but they're usually like 50 x 4 and 200 x 1 -- 4 channels for highs and a 200 watt subwoofer channel. that would drive your system well and would only require you to input a single "preout" -- the old mtx 5 channel had a small internal line driver as it was actually intended to suck off speaker high level inputs -- no clue as to where you'd find one now -- the new 5 channel is like 700 bucks. which is just wayy to much -- its not even WORTH htat much.

Santi

well, I've been sluething all over ebay, and have found some 5 channels from the 50x4 & 200x1 and up! I'll keep looking now. Any types of amps that you wouldn't get??

Jstas

Well, first off, the reason you don't want to split RCA cables is voltage drop. Obvious reasoning ensues.

Secondly, if he only has 1 set of pre-amp outs then he will have to split them and go for the sub out on the 4 channel amp.

Lastly, many companies make 4 channel amps. Just to name a few, Kenwood, Infinity, Sony, Hifonics and I think Soundstream has one too.

Check out the discount sites that have been listed numerous times. No need to scour eBay for junk when you can get new stuff at half the price of retail.

Santi

So I can still use a 4 channel for the front and rears AND connect it to the sub's amp even if I only have one set of preouts without reducing sound quality? How?

I want to say I really appreciate the patience dealing with my lack of knowledge.


Thanks again


Santiago

Jstas

You have 1 set of pre-amp outputs on your head unit.

You will have 2 sets of pre-amp inputs on your 4 channel amp. One front. One rear. Since you only have one set of pre-amp outs, you need to split that signal between the front and rear channels on the amp.

Your 4 channel amplifier will most likey have a set of RCA outputs. Somethines they are called sub out. Sometimes they are called sum out because they basically combine the signals from both sets of RCA in connections.

You are going to connect the sub out from the 4 channel amp to the RCA in on the stereo amp for the subs. You will need 3 pairs of RCA cables.

I don't think I can make it any simpler.

PoweredByDodge

*yogi bear voice* -- boo boo...

2 pair RCA's --- 1 from the deck to the 4ch (long) -- two y splitters (1 female in, 2 male outs) -- one pair from 4ch out to sub in (short)

my only question here is do u think that will be ok? chances are if this is a single output - its a 2 volt -- or knowing kenwood.. a 1.8 volt out. in which case, how far is 0.9 volt prior to clipping going to go? can it take the split and then the drag of the summed output?

Santi

ok, i get it. Split the preamp out to go to front and rear on the 4 channel amp, and THEN send the output from the 4 channel to the input of the sub's amp. I won't lose any sound quality this way?


**I posted this after PBD posted his inquiry. Will this work w/o a loss in quality?

CPHILHOWER

You will probably loose some voltage. Did you know RockFord 4 channel amps have a 2/4 channel input selector switch? Along with rca output? The old Punch 600.4 could have ran 2 channel input and used the output to the sub amp. I dont have this amp anymore.
Chris

Jstas

In most cases, the sub-out connections on the amp are not just pass throughs. Especially if there is a cross-over. The signal gets set at whatever voltage is coming out of the amp.

However, it seems that Santiago has 1 set of rear pre-amp outputs. This puts a damper on things because I am finding it quite difficult to find info on the pre-amp voltage on that unit and now I am wondering if they are subwoofer only pre-amp outputs or full range. This can make it difficult to run multiple amps for all speakers.

Santi

Crutchfield shows the preamp voltage at 1.8 volts.

I think they could be full-range preouts since the specs show the possibility of subwoofer preouts in addition to the other preamp outputs

PoweredByDodge

ya all non-excelon kenwood product until very recently (and maybe still is, i dont know) was 1.8 volt outs -- kinda low... thats why i sold my KDC-300S and got the alpine when i added the sub amp in my 88 pickup oh so many yrs ago.