TT & Subs= Rumble?

Hawkeye

OK guys, absolute newb on vinyl. Not counting the vinyl I grew up on. It has been about 25 years since I've spun a record.

Purchased the TT Scott had for sale in the FM today. Brought it home and hooked it up to my stack. I'm using some AQ Viper's I had laying around the house. The TT is about 5 ft from each sub. My pre has a selectable choice between MM & MC. Selected MM and selected 50pf setting.

The sound is what I expected (stellar:D)up to a certain point. Once I reach that point, there is a tremendous rumble from my subs. It is a physical/audio rumble way deep in the bottom. If I turn the subs off, this rumble disappears and I can run the volume up to where ever I want.

So are the subs setting up the vibration in the stylus? This rumble is unacceptable and I'm looking for suggestions to correct it.

Gordon

Face

I have a similar problem. I'm going to sister the beams under my two channel rig and hope it resolves the problem. If not, it's time for one of those ugly wall mount TT shelves.

MillerLiteScott

Gordon you also may want to unscrew and remove the dust cover as we discussed. I never had a problem after I did that but I did have it on an isolation sand box. But it did happen with the sand box and the dust cover attached. Isolation is key with unsprung turntables.

Gordon once I had the table isolated I could turn it up as loud as I could stand with no rumble. At the very least try some carpet padding and 12 X 12 tile or piece of wood. My isolation sand box was 19 X19 with @ 75 pounds of sand mounted to the wall and a granite 18 X18 tile.

Call me if you have any other questions.

Scott

MillerLiteScott

Mike,

I do not think sistering the joist below will make (much of) a difference from both my audio and building experience. Only the isolation of the table from the vibration will solve/reduce the issue. Or you could get real tiny speakers with no bass:D

Scott

fbm211

subsonic filter could help a little.

dkg999

I would also try some Herbies isolation pads underneath the TT. Are you sure the rumble isn't feedback and not vibration? You might make sure the TT is well behind the front plane of all the speakers.

strider

Make certain the platter is absolutely level as well.

George Grand

Make sure you have a WIIIIDE variety of vinyl on hand, to make sure it isn't isolated to a few troublesome discs.

Hawkeye

George Grand wrote: »

Make sure you have a WIIIIDE variety of vinyl on hand, to make sure it isn't isolated to a few troublesome discs.

I'm going to heed your advice. Would you have a full collection of Yes in A, pristine condition? Serious. I'd be willing to discuss pricing.

Gordon

ozzy21236

I think you are picking up airborne vibrations from the subs . A wall mounted shelf would help along with a sand box like Scott's and/or sorbathane fet underneath the table.

To Scott - I hope you haven't given up on vinyl . I know it can get frustrating .
To OP - sorry for the thread jack.

Russ

reeltrouble1

could be isolation, but let me ask, are you using an active crossover, seems I recall your listed subs are active, Doug's suggestion about the rumble possibilities bears further investigation...........

madmax

Isolating the table may not solve the problem because the bass can vibrate the record/platter directly. If this is the case then moving the table to a different position should help. One way to find a good location is to move around the room and see where you feel less bass.
madmax

reeltrouble1

I recall I once built an inadequate wall shelf for my TT, first record was a Beach Boys Endless Summer, sounded like a freight train was headed for the old WoodShed Rig, big time vibration and feedback, Chuck had to talk me down that night, you will get there and it is worth it.

RT1

SCompRacer

I had the same problem ~75dB when my TT was on the rack between the speakers. Moving the TT and most of the gear to the side wall fixed that. Been up to 115dB with no issues. I have suspended hard wood floors and needed an isolation solution to prevent skips from foot falls near the rack. A used Gingko Audio Cloud 11 isolation platform solved that problem.

sirdotry

Face wrote: »

I have a similar problem. I'm going to sister the beams under my two channel rig and hope it resolves the problem. If not, it's time for one of those ugly wall mount TT shelves.

Great info! Really informative. It is helpful for me.:(

strider

SCompRacer wrote: »

.....I have suspended hard wood floors and needed an isolation solution to prevent skips from foot falls near the rack.

Which raises a good question, what is the turntable being supported by, Gordon? Different types of 'table suspensions work better with certain types of isolation methods. IIRC that Pro-ject is rigid, correct?

Hawkeye

Thanks for all the input guys. I'll try to answer a few of the questions raised by the members.

I'm using the passive crossovers in the subs. I'm considering a Bryston 10b Active in the future.

My floors are hardwood over joists. Fairly stable but still has flex like any suspended floor.

All of my gear is in a BillyBags Audio Rack filled with lead shot. The top is plain old MDF covered with Formica. Yes, the Pro Ject is a rigid table.

Even in spite of the woofer pumping at higher volume levels, I'm glad I dipped my toe into vinyl. My digital play back is quite smooth and not ragged on the edges at all but there is just enough of a difference between digital and analog to tempt me to pursue this further. (open checkbook here):eek:

Gordon

madmax

Hawkeye wrote: »

My digital play back is quite smooth and not ragged on the edges at all but there is just enough of a difference between digital and analog to tempt me to pursue this further. (open checkbook here):eek:

Gordon

There is a difference for sure. After becoming accustomed to vinyl I went to a guys house to audition a pair of speakers I wanted to buy. His system was in the stratasphere compared to mine. $20K speaker wires were the weak point of his system if that gives you any idea of the scope. I could hear absolutely everything on the recording. His CD playing system was battery powered and had several components to it. He said it was the very best out there, don't remember much more than that. Any way, I immediately noticed there was something missing from the top end. There was a deadness up there. I assumed it was the speakers since they were the cheapest thing he had in the system. Anyway, I bought them. At home I could tell my system wasn't in the same class as his however this deadness on the top end wasn't there with the vinyl. I shoved in a CD and there it was. This proved to me that digital isn't all its cracked up to be. It took the quality and resolution of the new speakers to let me finally understand why CD's had never delivered like vinyl. Sorry, just felt like writing a story.
madmax

Hawkeye

madmax wrote: »

Isolating the table may not solve the problem because the bass can vibrate the record/platter directly. If this is the case then moving the table to a different position should help. One way to find a good location is to move around the room and see where you feel less bass.
madmax

I've done this and have one question. How long can the IC be?

Gordon

TroyD

Is it every LP or just certain ones....if you have warped LP's, they are notorious for rumble....many phono stages include a subsonic filter to do away with that...

BDT

sTiLlLeArNiNg

I run my TT very close to all my component's and i crank the volume pretty high and never find any "induced" noise's Maybe that is one benefit of having a TT with a suspended deck?

If you have a dustcover on your TT maybe try listening with it removed In case i missed it what TT are you running?

2-tall

I run 2 turntables.A Harman Kardon ST8 and an ar xb.The ST8 had to be moved to a back wall 6 feet from my speakers to stop the rumble caused by my Paradigm v2000.The AR can be next to the sub and has no rumble.We are talking about two completely different suspensions.

madmax

Hawkeye wrote: »

I've done this and have one question. How long can the IC be?

Gordon

And so now the problems really start. My TT has 1 meter (3 feet) leads. In my case I had a standalone phono preamp which I kept close to the turntable then ran longer cables from the phono pre to the pre-amp. Pretty much the leads coming from the TT must be kept short.
madmax

MillerLiteScott

Gordon I was running 2 meter interconnects when I was using the wall mounted sand box. I never had the table sitting on a rack it was always on a wall mount.

Scott

reeltrouble1

Gordon,

I have recently corresponded with Dr. Roger West referencing subwoofers with panels, although a bit off your rumble topic as long as you are spending dough and improving things I am copying and including his thoughts and comments within the bolded and italized text that follows. I am quite sure you will resolve your rumble, I use a Billy Bags rack with my stats I have no rumble but can get a footfall noise if I step in a certain place, especially on a warped record as indicated by BDT. I have not filled my rack, I am concerned with deadning the components as well as the footfalls, Billy Bags recommends silica 60-90 if you are going to damp the rack, this may simply be due to environmental concerns, however, any material that damps the rack will in fact affect the components placed into the rack, but I am rambling a bit and it is a personal taste/decision system specific.

The best advice I can give you is that vinyl is flat out worth it, it will add a new wonderful dimension to the hobby, God Bless George Grand with long life and cheap prices.

Anyway, enjoy Dr. West's comments to me and consider what benefit if any they may be for your rig.

> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 9:28 AM, Ted wrote:
>
> > Dr. West,
> >
> > I have a very nice pair of Sound Lab Millineun speakers, they have the new px panels and electronics, I would like to know the best way to
integrate subwoofer(s) into my system.
> >
> > If you could give me some advice it would be very much appreciated.
> >
> > Thank you.

> >>> soundlab soundlab <soundlab@burgoyne.com> 10/14/2009 12:40 PM >>>
> Ted,
>
> My personal recommendation is to use an external active crossover,
> crossing at 75 Hz to 100 Hz. The attenuation rates recommended depends on the
> characteristics of the sub. I find that 12dB/octave works good for
> the high-pass filter to the electrostatic panel. The attenuation rate for
> the woofer depends somewhat on the woofer characteristics. I'd follow the
> instructions of the woofer manufacturer. The woofers should be
> relatively close to the panels, otherwise phase anomalies can occur around the
> crossover frequency.
>
> It's not particularly difficult to integrate a sub with the Millineum. Just
> make sure that the sub and the stat are in phase at the crossover frequency.
> I don't have any particular recommendation on which crossover to use. To
> a large extent this depends on personal taste.
>
> I hope that my comments help. Please let me know if I can be of
> further
> assistance.
>
> Good listening,
>
> Roger West

sic>>>>>further response....

Hello Ted,

I also have not been an advocate of subs in a serious 2-channel music
system, but of course this is personal preference. The M-PX does a pretty good job
of reproducing bass down to 30 Hz. Some audioiphiles like to go below this.
Our larger panels, like the Majestics and A-1s go down further and most
people don't use subs as the response goes down the to low 20s.

We developed a high-performance dynamic sub for our DynaStat hybrid. It
employs an excellent 10" diameter driver. I wouldn't go above this size due
to inertial effects and cone breakup. The enclosure uses a slotted port
system that greatly reduces air turbulence, compared to tubular ports. I'm
thinking that this sub, though designed for the bass portion of the hybrid, would be ideal
for bass augmentation of our full-range panels. I'll have to think about
it. I'm familiar with other subs, but ours was designed to provide the best
transition characteristics to make the cross from the dynamic to electrostat as
invisible as possible. I wish that I could recommend other subs, but I just haven't
tried them with our speakers. It's possible that it could be made a free-standing
sub.

Concerning the transmission line subs, I've always had a liking for them if
designed correctly. I designed such a speaker when I was with JansZen
electrostat back in the 1970s. Today, the slot-loaded sub is at least an
equal in my estimation, and is much simpler in concept. The transmission
line speaker simply delays the back-wave of the driver so that it emerges
from the port in a supportive phase with the energy from the front of the
driver over a small range of frequencies at the lowest end of the bass
energy output. It is a ploy to extend the low-frequency cutoff frequency.
The slotted port system uses an enclosure/driver resonance to accomplish
the same thing. The transmission system has to be carefully inversely
tapered and damped to prevent an objectionable "pipe resonance".

There are a lot of good subs on the market, but bass in my estimation is
very controversial. Some like it "tight" (highly damped) and some like it
looser (less damped). It's best if a person can listen to a few subs to
make sure they obtain one that sounds best.

I hope I haven't confused you more.

Sincerely,

Roger West


RT1--Tubes Rule.

Hawkeye

Nice read Ted. As I said, I'm considering the Bryston 10b Active in the near future. An acquaintance of mine has a pair of Fathoms 112's with Wilson Sasha speakers. He was using a Bryston but found he crossed over so low he felt the Bryston was unneeded considering the the JL crossover is very accurate.

Mine are dialed in very nicely at this point and reading Dr. West's response verified my setup. I'm crossed at 82Hz/12db slope (didn't care for the 24) and they are located very close to my panels (within 10 inches) to eliminate some phasing issues. The JL has a wide Phase adjustment which helped in matching the sub to panel. Using the ARO after final setting smoothed out the peak but requires a slight gain adjustment.

My panels have the integrated 10' woofer which was borderline in my opinion. They are solid down to 34Hz but fall off quite quickly. Another friend of mine tried both the F110 and settled on the F112 for the bottom grunt the 112 provides.

It was quite time consuming and sometimes frustrating trying to get a stereo pair to integrate seamlessly. I must have had 20 pages of numbers strewn about the room and wore out 2 batteries from the SPL meter! My room is not ideal and I'm certain it contributed to the difficulty I had. I'm on suspended wood floors with hardwoods which does set up some unfixable resonances. Next house will have my dedicated room on a slab!

I believe I'm going to try a Ginkgo Cloud for the TT. Have to figure out how to get in the house before the better half sees it. I'm determined to get this TT or another, to work with my subs turned on!!

Gordon

I had a ported REL B1 which I found impossible to integrate. It is now in the HT where it does a great job.

Hawkeye

madmax wrote: »

And so now the problems really start. My TT has 1 meter (3 feet) leads. In my case I had a standalone phono preamp which I kept close to the turntable then ran longer cables from the phono pre to the pre-amp. Pretty much the leads coming from the TT must be kept short.
madmax

I'm not prepared to abandon the MC/MM pre which is integral to my pre just yet. It is well regarded by some and want to utilize what I have at this point. I believe I'm going to try a Ginkgo Cloud or a platform from Black Diamond Racing.

Gordon

madmax

Hawkeye wrote: »

I'm not prepared to abandon the MC/MM pre which is integral to my pre just yet. It is well regarded by some and want to utilize what I have at this point. I believe I'm going to try a Ginkgo Cloud or a platform from Black Diamond Racing.

Gordon

I was not suggesting that, it just turned out that way for me. Someone above said they had 2 meter cables on theirs. Maybe a longer cable would be an option.

Hawkeye

madmax, I didn't take it in the wrong way. I appreciate what you guys write down and your solutions for problems.

I'm very limited on space and another piece is just about impossible. If I can move the table it would, I think, solve my problem. Just not sure how to do it.

It's all good

Gordon

reeltrouble1

I resolved rack placement by keeping the amps (mono-block) between the speakers, I use a 5m MIT Shotgun balanced cable from the pre to the amps, not sure if you can do this or not. Maybe a balanced cable from the TT to the phono pre as another option.

RT1

nadams

Check your main speakers, too. With my TT playing and the subsonic filter off, the 6.5" drivers on my SDAs bounce like crazy... but it's "inaudible" (hence the subsonic part).

If I turn the subsonic filter on, it all but goes away. My guess is, with true subwoofers, it'd be very easy to hear this "subsonic" rumble just from air movement (port noise, etc) alone.

I've yet to find out a way to get rid of it without having the subsonic filter on. It's working fine for me for now, though.