Interesting article about adding more time to the school day.

Pycroft

I thought this was interesting, and I'll share my views later when I have more time

James

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090927/ap_on_re_us/us_more_school

markmarc

As a teacher there are plenty of pros and cons. But I'll let others chime in first.

treitz3

Teachers are underpaid as is.......IMNSHO.

bobman1235

I'm not a teacher or parent, so I understand that I am not in the best position to have a strong opinion of this, but :

- with budgets as tight as they are, I wonder how adding any significant amount of time to a school day or year will affect that

- they don't specifically say what age groups this was aiming for - all school children, only high school, etc - but it seems to me that expanding the day for grade school wouldn't be particularly useful (outside a babysitting capacity) while high-school age would most likely be much more useful. I've seen studies that show that for the most part homework actually has a NEGATIVE effect on learning in the younger (grade school) years, so I wonder if this would be similar.

- at some point there has to be a "kids need time to be kids" attitude. While being competitive in the global workforce is important, and education is important, so is enjoying one's youth. There's a reason we created such an advanced society, and it's not so we can spend every waking hour from childhood to death working; it's so we have free time to enjoy the fruits of our labor. It's what makes modern civilization meaningful to the masses; a better quality of life than a hundred years ago when you started working at 8 and worked right up until you died at 55. We can't let the balance tip too far either way - working too much or not enough - and it's unclear how much more school time can be added before this becomes a concern.

Just random thoughts on the topic....

thuffman03

I am not going to say anything other than I don't like the idea.

This gets into being too political and I am not sure what the forum rules are on this.

Face

I had enough trouble staying awake in school.

kevhed72

I live in Georgia, and my kids get way too many breaks...Spring, Mid Winter, Fall, Teacher Institutes, and on and on. I think they should cut all these breaks down here...kids become to unfocused after a week off for a "mid-winter" break.

jdwmap

I think that America will fall farther behind if it doesn't put an emphasis and focus on school. My kids go to school and instead of the "grades" in grade school, they get nothing. They have no understanding of what it means to improve because they don't understand where they may or may not be failing or where they excel over other students. When i went to school, I knew I was better at XYZ and that other kids knew more about ABC. I don't like that we now have to make sure kids feel good about being average. Kids should feel good about being great and average kids should strive to improve themselves.

I also don't agree with the teachers are underpaid argument. The teachers here pay 1.00 every 2 weeks for benefits. They get a pension type of retirement plan alongside a 401K type of plan that the school corporation matches. The health benefit alone is worth about 450.00 a month to me and my family. Alongside of a funded pension plan of any type and 401k match, i need to make a lot more than 40k a year to equal the pay w/benefits that a teacher has going for them. The average household only makes 50,000.00 a year, and they work 52 weeks a year. I know some teachers put in a full year, but there are also others who work 8 months and take off for 4. The longer teachers are in the system, the closer to the 8 month category they get. Not meant to flame the teachers out there who actually work hard year round, but being friends with some teachers who are on the downside of a 30 year career, not all teachers are great and put forth tons of effort, just like any other profession out there.

If we don't fix it now, our kids will be woefully behind other countries.

bobman1235

jdwmap wrote: »

I think that America will fall farther behind if it doesn't put an emphasis and focus on school. My kids go to school and instead of the "grades" in grade school, they get nothing. They have no understanding of what it means to improve because they don't understand where they may or may not be failing or where they excel over other students. When i went to school, I knew I was better at XYZ and that other kids knew more about ABC. I don't like that we now have to make sure kids feel good about being average. Kids should feel good about being great and average kids should strive to improve themselves.

Seems like a quality over quantity argument to me. If the system is broken, adding more TIME but keeping the system broken doesn't fix anything.

everpress

Fix the system. Don't add more time to the school day because that's what Japan has. Japan allows teachers to discipline students without fear of a lawsuit. Japan also has extremely job-focused schools. Japan also has Japanese girls in skirts. If we focus our education system on mimic-ing another country's instead of innovating our own, let's at least make Japanese-girls-in-skirts mandatory.

lanion

As a teacher I like the idea of having the school open for more hours... but I think there are enough hours of classes to do the job if they are used well, which is not always the case.

Comparing US to Japan or any other country is tough... Asian countries and European countries typically have a lot more inherent respect for authority figures in the workplace and at school. In Japan students seem to always obey the teacher and only respond when asked a direct question, whereas in the US kids talk back a lot more (which has some pros as well as obvious cons) -- this is based on observations of videos of 8th grade classrooms that was part of an international study on education.

vlam

I'll throw my .02 into this. I am not a teacher but a parent of 2 little ones.

Forget longer school year or extended hours. This isn't the problem. It's going to cost more for the school to run hence higher property tax. I live in NJ. So it's high enough already.

The problem isn't the amount of time educating the kids in school.. It's the amount of time that kids are spending on education out of school. These after school activities are way out of hand, especially with the younger kids. Soccer, baseball, basketball, etc..

These are all the stuff that parents have their kids do because "it's easier" to have them do these activities then spending time with them before or after dinner.

Stop relying on teachers being the only one that teaches your kids. Not all parents know how to educate their kids so they are in school to have a structured learning environment. That should extend outside of the school and into their homes. Not sure about other parents but I find fun learning with my kids. Yes there are stuff that my kids is learning that I have forgotten and it's fun to learn again.

The problem isn't all because of the school system. Everything starts from the home and we just have a lot of bad parents in today world. Someday, parents may come to realize that spending money on their kids doesn't make them good parents.

Just my opinion

Jstas

I don't think more time is the answer.

I think that shifting the breaks from about 3 long months to 4 quarters a year and several 1-2 week breaks between quarters is the way to go. Of course the Christmas and Spring breaks would be a bit longer. But if we had 10 week quarters that would be 40 weeks of classes. That would add roughly 2 more weeks of instruction and still allow for 12 weeks of down time to be distributed throughout the year. You could have 3 weeks for Christmas, three weeks for spring and two weeks in October and you could give most of July, the hottest month for most areas, off to not only save on things like electricity and such but still gives kids that all important summer vacation.

It breaks up the school year and they would still get half the holidays like Labor Day, Columbus Day and hell, give them Arbor Day too! You get two more weeks of instruction and that, in high school and grade school is a TON of time. It also spaces breaks out to make classwork and terms/quarters have definitive starts and ends. This helps students know where subject matter starts and ends and gives them enough to time to wind down from the stress of the term and then prepare for the next term. It also eliminates having homework to do over break periods which, IMO, is demoralizing. If the class you take in the Spring term is a continuation of the Winter term class but, at the same time a different class, having work the spans terms requires multiple teachers to coordinate tactics and honestly, it detracts from the purpose of a break.

We all rail on and on about having to work on vacation in these times. We hate to do it, fight to not do and often just refuse. Yet we expect our kids to suck it up and deal with because we said so? Nuh-uh, doesn't jive. Kids need a break too and breaks help studies in many ways.

Also, the large July break gives a perfect sized break for students to have a real break between grade levels. The large Spring break allows older students looking at college to go and visit those colleges that they are interested in and scope them out.

It helps the family overall too. It allows workers to stagger vacations so there isn't so much conflict with others at work. Basically, if workers with children want to go on family vacation, they have to have time for the summer available. They also need time at the holidays to visit family. With a different school schedule, options are more diverse and destinations aren't as limited because parents can manage time better without having to worry if they are going to have to take the kids out of school during an off-peak season just to save a buck or if a family function is going to cause excessive hardship in meeting schedules.

I think things need to be fixed. I know I struggled through school because the schedule was grueling for a kid and the never ending school year never had that many breaks in it. The summers were nice and long but by the time I got back to start the next grade, I was just as lost as I was my first day of school let alone first day of a new grade. The current schedule is a disservice to our children and we need to do something. But extending the day, that's a bad idea. Extending the year, not so bad. But we can't just cut summer vacation short by a month and a half with no plan. Change the school year if a "summer in the fields" isn't as critical anymore. Don't just tack time on.

10bad10

..................really bad idea.

Pycroft

Some really great posts here. I agree with a lot of what was said. To be honest, I'm not sure if more time would help. I've always thought that it was structured a bit wrong. Go to school for 9 months, then 3 months to forget everything, then the first 3-4 weeks of school to 'get back in teh groove'. I always thought that if we went to school for 4 days a week, Monday - Thursday, and give students a little more downtime with the extra day off. Also, no summer vacation. Give a little two week hiatus here or there - long enough for a cool down, but not long enough for kids to sit on their butts and going brain dead with video games and other things kids do these days.

Also, regarding teachers and pensions/401k, etc. I think you may have something wrong. Teachers do not receive a 401k, they have a 403b - which is hte same concept, only there is NO price matching. It's basically like an IRA, only you don't get to choose the company (Fidelity, Vanguard, etc.). It's whatever crappy companies (Usually insurance companies selling annuities) that are available. As a teacher, I don't even use it...I have IRA's opened up, and other investments, because with the companies my district offers, it's basically pointless.

Does everyone think this will actually change? That's another topic, but Obama would have to take on the teachers union, and I think that would be VERY difficult, but also think it has to be done.

James

tonyb

Teacher salaries in the NW burbs of chicago can range from 50 g's to 120 g's,for 9 months worth of work,I'd say they are not under payed. What they are though,is abused by parents,thrown to the wolves by administrators,and handcuffed in ways that make teaching,an almost impossible task. School days were designed around working families,if you have a 4 day school week,alot of parents will be forced to do the daycare thing. Now if you want to do the 4 day work week,I'll back ya on that.

sucks2beme

THe problem is NOT ENOUGH HOMEWORK. I remember having it in the
4th, 5th, and 6th grades, with the load increasing in middle and high school.
I had two boys that didn't seem to get much homework in those years.
If the schools don't push kids, along with the parents, then they don't
learn. If the school and parents pushed as hard at education as they
do at sports, then this problem wouldn't exist. They like gimmicks better
than hard work. Want to improve reading scores? Then make them READ!
Sitting longer in a classroom will not improve things. Making the students
earn their grades will.

lanion

One school I taught in we could only make 5% of the grade HW... home lives of students were generally so unpredictable that if we could not assume students had any computer access or free time outside of school (jobs to support family, taking care of siblings, etc).

other schools you can tell them they need to build a kelvin thunderstorm device on their own time and money and not think twice.

Every school has its own problems and needs its own solutions... there is no one answer.

tommyboy

I see this as just a political ploy so during the next election he can say he helped our school system by increasing amount of time in classrooms... But in reality its only gives us a false impression and hiding behind the real problem with public schools.

You could MAYBE get rid of summer vacation and have more smaller breaks during the year but longer school days is a terrible idea, 7 hours is long enough and high school kids would not be able to work while in school.

F1nut

A thought......no summer vacation for the kids means no summer vacation for the family and that means an absolute disaster for the American economy. Wake the fu(k up America!

DeusExa

Public school is a horribly flawed system. Trust me. 1st hand experience...

Sherardp

Imagine going to school yr round like they do here in Japan. Kids in the USA have it way easier.

tonyb

F1nut wrote: »

A thought......no summer vacation for the kids means no summer vacation for the family and that means an absolute disaster for the American economy. Wake the fu(k up America!

Also a good point. Kinda makes you wonder if there is an underlaying reason for all of this. Alot of families,to their own fault,look at school as a babysitting service too. If we are soo concerned about our ability to compete in a global economy,so they say,then how about keeping the family unit intact. How about making it easier for a family to survive on one income. Having a parent at home makes a big difference. Heck,I just read a story about a district in the south that refuses to fail a student 3rd grade and under. Makes you wonder what the pass/fail criteria is for the older kids. School has become some sort of idealogical social engineering,rather than just teaching some basic skills,with a flair for not harming the emotional stability of the kids,by never failing them. I better stop here before I twist this into a political thread. I'm pretty sure Jesse knows where I'm comming from.

sucks2beme

F1nut wrote: »

A thought......no summer vacation for the kids means no summer vacation for the family and that means an absolute disaster for the American economy. Wake the fu(k up America!

I grew up on a farm. There was no vacation, EVER!
Given where the modern workplace is going, there likely won't be
vacations there much longer. You can't take a day off without
taking at least one conference call. And I'm a techie. Others spend
all day every day in meetings. My favorite quote from a boss to a
worker looking for two weeks off for a trip, "If I could go two weeks
with you out of the office, you wouldn't still be on the payroll."

bobman1235

Your boss sounds like an ****.

I hate comparing to Europe, but the European economy is doing better than ours and in most cases they have significantly MORE vacation time than we do. I recently heard a story from France where they're actually FINING people for working more than 35 hours a week(on the premise that if you work too much you're taking a job away from someone else). WHile I totally don't agree with that, there is a middle ground somewhere, and that middle ground isn't "no vacation ever."

sucks2beme

bobman1235 wrote: »

Your boss sounds like an ****.

I hate comparing to Europe, but the European economy is doing better than ours and in most cases they have significantly MORE vacation time than we do. I recently heard a story from France where they're actually FINING people for working more than 35 hours a week(on the premise that if you work too much you're taking a job away from someone else). WHile I totally don't agree with that, there is a middle ground somewhere, and that middle ground isn't "no vacation ever."

Europe is doomed. We need to pull our collective heads out of are arses, too.
As a culture, we look down on smart kids. We glorify jocks and make heroes
out of HS losers that party and live the life. What isn't covered is all the 25
year old losers that have no future, have two kids and a drinking /drug problem.
School does need an overhaul. They suck the life out of history
by having students memorize civil war trivia. They teach raw math without
showing what it's used for. And computer training? Most of it looks like that
Southpark episode where the teacher is wading through basics, while the kids
are running rings around them behind their backs.
Starting about 3rd or 4th grade, kids should be split out to learn other things.
Either you've got the basics down and are bored senseless, or are over your
head due to lack of basics. That HAS to change. Sorry, slow kids.
But the other kids need to be challenged. Pick up the pace or be left behind.

As far as bosses go, they seem to have a short lifespan around here.
The last 10 or so are unemployed. The current one looks to be doomed here
in about another month. I've still got vacation on the books from last year.
Welcome to 2009. Where's that damn jetpack we were supposed to have?

everpress

everpress wrote: »

Fix the system. Don't add more time to the school day because that's what Japan has. Japan allows teachers to discipline students without fear of a lawsuit. Japan also has extremely job-focused schools. Japan also has Japanese girls in skirts. If we focus our education system on mimic-ing another country's instead of innovating our own, let's at least make Japanese-girls-in-skirts mandatory.

The local school district gets over 90 days off per year. That is too many days off. Is it 20%-30% too many days off? No. But it could be reduced. And what the hell, we all know that allotting more time at an activity that is flawed and failing doesn't improve the activity, it's just wasting more time. So, improve the system, don't just add to it... And somebody get some asian girls in skirts and knee-highs on board with the plan.

Pycroft

Again, I agree with a lot of what's said. The sad fact is, it will be VERY difficult to change because of teacher unions. I am a member of the teacher union, but I've been thinking about a lot of these issues, and others including tenure, for a while. I've always said that these issues need to be dealt with from the top down, and I'm glad the discussion is beginning.

NJPOLKER

This guy has not come up with one good idea yet.

everpress

NJPOLKER wrote: »

This guy has not come up with one good idea yet.

Sure he has... Don't be McCain... Unfortunately he's no Ron Paul....

bobman1235

sucks2beme wrote: »

As a culture, we look down on smart kids. We glorify jocks and make heroes out of HS losers that party and live the life. What isn't covered is all the 25 year old losers that have no future, have two kids and a drinking /drug problem. School does need an overhaul. They suck the life out of history by having students memorize civil war trivia. They teach raw math without showing what it's used for. And computer training? Most of it looks like that Southpark episode where the teacher is wading through basics, while the kids are running rings around them behind their backs.
Starting about 3rd or 4th grade, kids should be split out to learn other things.

Well said. I think the tide is turning SLOWLY with regards to societal attitudes towards smart kids. Nerds are needed more and more in modern society and aren't looked down on QUITE as much as they used to. It would be nice if the smartest kid in school was the one to make millions rather than the jock but I don't see that happening.