2-channel Pre w/ HT bypass?

aiden

I have Integra DTC-9.8 running with a Anthem MCA 20 amp(L&R fronts) and MCA 30 amp(C & 2 surrounds) I use for HT.
My L,C,R speakers are floor standing North creek Vision monitor kit speakers. They go down to about 70 hz.
My surround speakers are 4 Polk RTi 6's and lastly my sub is a HSU VTF mk2.

I'm very happy with the SQ for movies, but I feel "I've left something on the table" when playing CD's! Presently I use a Onkyo DX-7555 CDP analog through the Integra Direct analog out.

From everything I read and hear, the analog play through on the Integra 9.8 is not it's strong point. That said, direct analog SQ still in MHO sounds better than digital even with the Audyssey when playing CD's!

I thought it was time to look into a 2ch pre with a HT bypass. Is the SQ improvement noticeable/ step up with a good 2-ch pre in the line?

I've noticed a marked SQ improvement going to a good CDP (Onkyo DX7555). It's Wolfson 192 kHz/ 24-bit dac, gave it better SS and imaging, than my old Denon univeral player when playing music. Is this the kind of improvement that can be heard with a dedicated 2-channel pre?
With all the processing and video imaging for the digital HT in the Integra, analog seems to be a afterthought.
Any thoughts?!
Thank you

Setup:
Integra 9.8 W/ balanced interconnectors
Yamaha 2400 (used as amp for back surround in 7.1)
Anthem MCA 20
Anthem MCA 30
North Creek Vision Signature (FL, C, FR)
Polk RTi 6 (4 surround channels)
HSU vtf MK2 sub
Panasonic DMP-BD 35 (Blue Ray)
Toshiba HD-A2 (HD DVD)
Denon 2900 universal (SACD, DVD)
Onkyo DX 7555 (CD)
Samsung LCD 52 850

tcrossma

When I added a good 2-channel pre w/HT bypass to my system I noticed much improved imaging and soundstage, depth, and some tonal improvements. I don't have any experience with your current processor, but I think there's a good chance it would be a very nice upgrade for you.

reeltrouble1

Your thinking is absolutely correct. Enjoy the search, I re-call the Conrad Johnson tubed pre's have a by-pass (at least some of them) they would be an excellent choice.

RT1

aiden

Thanks for the replies.
I don't have any experience with a 2-channel pre.
Tub or SS!
I know I want to run analog and balanced lines, in and out.
At some point I'd like to go with a music server and run a good DAC to the pre.
Does a tub pre warm the sound or is that not really a factor with all the other SS in line to the speakers?
Thanx

---

Setup:
Integra 9.8 W/ balanced interconnectors
Yamaha 2400 (used as amp for back surround in 7.1)
Anthem MCA 20
Anthem MCA 30
North Creek Vision Signature (FL, C, FR)
Polk RTi 6 (4 surround channels)
HSU vtf MK2 sub
Panasonic DMP-BD 35 (Blue Ray)
Toshiba HD-A2 (HD DVD)
Denon 2900 universal (SACD, DVD)
Onkyo DX 7555 (CD)
Samsung LCD 52 850
Monster HTS 3500

SolidSqual

Most of the time a good tube pre will sound more natural, not necessarily warm, than an SS pre . . . most of the time. (Keep it shut, RT1) Warm, Flat, Dynamic, Neutral can be characteristics of any pre.

reeltrouble1

.....................yeesh. Both tube and SS state gear can be considered "warm" sounding or neutral, tubes are rarely called "cool" sounding but who knows, often SS gear fits the "cool" term, not really a bad thing, its what you like, your room the other gear and the speakers used. You absolutely need a pre-amp designed to play music, not to do all sorts of other things, if you are going to do one of those server thingies you need SolidSqual as I don't go there, that Peachtree thing he has is well reviewed and has USB not sure about by-pass, Anthem may have something as I see you use there gear, I have heard some very nice Anthem pre-amps.....oh, for the record...Tubes Rule, so since that is the case you can hook other ss (sand) gear as you suggest and still get that wonderful tube sound. There are many new DAC's being rushed to market for servers by the known audio companies, the Benchmark is a favorite around here but there are many to consider.

RT1

BB3

aiden,

Multiple Carver Pre-Amps have that bypass feature you're after. All of them pretty much sound superb without breaking the bank.

There are of course multiple websites to look at, but here is one store that I deal with frequently : www.vintagehifipgh.com

If you have any questions please don't hesitate to ask me.---Bill(BB3)

heiney9

Adcom GFP-750 balanced in and out, HT bypass, remote. Fantastic sounding, ultra neutral.

Used $600-800 depedning on condition.

SolidSqual

If you got the money, forget Adcom. Go for tubes with Dodd Audio Battery Power Preamp or Cary SLP-03. If you don't want tubes, check out Wyred4Sound.

All are great tube pres that will take your system to new heights with an HT bypass. Plus, these preamps will be around long after you continue to upgrade the rest of your system.

danz1906

heiney9 wrote: »

Adcom GFP-750 balanced in and out, HT bypass, remote. Fantastic sounding, ultra neutral.

Used $600-800 depedning on condition.

The best pre-amp for the Money!

pearsall001

Conrad Johnson makes a nice tube pre with HT bypass...PV14L2 is the model I had. Krell makes a nice one also with HT bypass...KAV 250p is the model I had. Notice where I keep saying I had as in past tense. My NAD (T773) AVR did such a great job in 2 channel listening as a pre that I sold them both off. No audio BS here. NAD makes great sounding gear...period. Now I have the NAD T765 AVR & it's just a pure stud as a pre. NAD's philosophy as "Music First" really comes thru in their designs.

NJPOLKER

Well I have to speak my .02 worth because tubes are the way to go when it comes to pre-amps. I think I paid about $650. for the unit with remote and three spare sets of tubes.Then bought two 2uF Dynamicap capacitors for $50 and made the simple upgrade myself in 15 minutes.
Maybe when Laz/Sal and I finally get together we can make some real comparisons between the Adcom 750 and the Anthem pre2L. I'll put my money on the Anthem all day.

http://www.anthemav.com/OldSitev1/frames/preamp2fr.html

http://www.audio-ideas.com/reviews/preamps/anthem-pre2l.html

heiney9

I'm running a Dared Sl2000A (tube pre) with Auricaps thru the HT bypass on the Adcom. I can run tubes, active SS or passive SS. Been doing some comparing with my favorite rectifier and tubes and the Dared really holds it's own.

Drew, you will be surprised how good the 750 sounds. Not saying you'll prefer it in the end, but it's that good. I can barely tell a difference on some material between it and the Dared w/tubes.

Anxious to hear thoughts from you and Sal. This is the kind of stuff that makes this hobby fun and we do alot of this stuff at our RAS get togethers. I'm in for a round tonight with a pair of 1960's Telefunken's and a 1954 Sylvania 5V4G black plate rectifier and my favorite Norah Jones songs and more

H9

Jetmaker737

Anybody heard the Cary CPA-1? There was one on ebay NIB for $500 a couple of days ago, which looked like a stellar deal. But I couldn't find any reviews on it anywhere on the internets to justify pulling the trigger and of course now it's gone!

FYI... Parasound 2100 has a lot of good reviews (as another choice).

aiden

I have been out for a few hours, just got back to see all the posts!
Thanks!
NJPOLKER,
Yes, the Anthem tub pre would be a nice fit with the Anthem amps, but it only carries RCA in and out puts, not balanced. I like the idea of the balanced out from the Integra to the MCA 20/30. Maybe I'm over stating the need for balanced interconnects!
Lasareath, heiney9 and danz1906,
I have been looking at the Adcom GFP-750! I would be very interested in hearing of that face-off between the Adcom and the Anthem pre's! It sounds like they both could be had for about the same used price range. I have to consider, buying a pre tub or SS used, which would be more likely a safer buy? (A)- not get burned! You know what I mean! Buying a SS amp is one thing, buying a pre, tub or not is another. (B)- the jump to a tub pre! They look like they're put together pretty straight forward and easier to repair. What's the life of the tubs like?
SolidSqual,
I need to look into your suggestion of the Dodd Audio and Cary tub pre's. It sounds like they are in a higher price range new or used.
pearsall001,
Same with the Conrad Johnson pre. I imagine it's more costly then the Adcom/ Anthem!
I'll go check 'em out. I'm trying to get a good balance between sound upgrade and cost. If it doesn't sound better than what I have, there's no point in spending the cash, no matter what the price range is!!

kawizx9r

Hey aiden, I'm on your boat regarding a dedicated pre for music w/HT bypass. I posted a thread about it just 2 weeks ago. They mention some of the above mentioned pre's as well as a few more (if you scroll down about halfway of page 1 and afterward). For around 700 I'm looking at VTL and if I wanted to spend a little more, I'm also looking at Conrad Johnson and upwards to Cary and Dodd. I'm very new to the tube world so thought I'd drop this in here for ya - http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87901

Goodluck on your future purchase! I'll be making the jump in just a few months, after my subwoofer is built and if I decide to get a new tv first or pre.

aiden

kawizx9r
Thanks!
It's fun to get into new areas, but you feel like such a dummy until you get your feet wet and pick up a few pointers!
By the way, on your 2 channel-I had a Denon 2800 also. Had some issues with it(DVD skips and freeze ups) and sent it into be repaired. Denon had it three or four months, finally offered me a 2900 to replace it. I jumped on it! The 2900 plays SACD and Audio DVD's but not the HDCD. It worked great for a good 6/7 years. just recently started having problems playing SACD's. DVD'd and CD work fine.
I replaced the Denon a couple months back with a Onkyo DX 7555. It's just a CD player but it really does a great job on the Red Book CD's. I went back and forth between a NAD 1072 and the DX 7555. That's what got me started looking into a pre with a HT bypass. At some point down the line I would like to get all my music on a server and put a dac in front of the pre!

NJPOLKER

Lasareath wrote: »

I think I'm home Friday if you want to take a ride.

Sal,
I'll be out golfing and drinking all day Friday :) Lets do it next week. Generally speaking my time is free between 9am and 2pm mon-fri all depending on what's going on that day. I can make it to Roselle Park from the rural hills of NJ in 45 minutes easily.
I'll bring that Polk sub woofer that has been sitting in my closet too. I hope your relative/cousin still had use for it. If not maybe I'll just pop the trunk and let it fly out on HWY78 :eek:

NJPOLKER

H9
I was thinking about going with the GFP-750 until the F'ing tube's got my attention. Being able to roll tubes to tune the sound to your preference is awesome. I had a awesome tune session this morning after everyone went to school/work and the Polk's, Anthem, Belles, Arcam, Tubes and Cables have all settled in beautifully. It's going to be hard to beat the Anthem and I have not gone to high end tubes and don't have to but, it is always an option.
The great thing in all this is that it's not really about good/better/best but more so what each individual prefers.

heiney9

Tube rolling is awesome, but it's also frustrating and, for me, gives me way too many choices. In the Dared the number one thing is the rectifier tube. I have about 8 rectifiers total with 5 of them being different types and it makes one helluva difference.

The best rectifier so far is a 1954 5V4G Sylvania Black plate bottom square getter coke bottle shape.

The worst rectifier is the Chinese 5Z4 which is OEM and an inexpensive 80's Sovtek 5Y3. I was going to put a pair of 1960's ECC81 Telefunken's up FS because they sounded so murky and closed in. Swap rectifiers Voila!!! They sound great. So what I'm saying is there are a lot of caveats that go along with tube rolling and if you can have some patience and not get too carried way (I did, I now have 8 rectifiers and probably 30-40 pairs of tubes) it can be rewarding.

The 750 is very close to tubes, but it just is a tad "dry" when I compare it to the Dared. Sometimes I can't tell which is playing, the Dared or the 750, until vocals come in. They have more body with tubes. It's slight but a little extra body and "bloom" are always present with the tubes in the mix. The soundstage is always a bit wider as well with tubes. Not sure if this is real in the mix or just the enhancement the tubes give.

The two pre's, when level matched are damn close..........so close sometimes when I switch (via remote) with my eyes closed I have a hard time telling which is which.

H9

NJPOLKER

heiney9 wrote: »

Tube rolling is awesome, but it's also frustrating and, for me, gives me way too many choices. In the Dared the number one thing is the rectifier tube. I have about 8 rectifiers total with 5 of them being different types and it makes one helluva difference.

The best rectifier so far is a 1954 5V4G Sylvania Black plate bottom square getter coke bottle shape.

The worst rectifier is the Chinese 5Z4 which is OEM and an inexpensive 80's Sovtek 5Y3. I was going to put a pair of 1960's ECC81 Telefunken's up FS because they sounded so murky and closed in. Swap rectifiers Voila!!! They sound great. So what I'm saying is there are a lot of caveats that go along with tube rolling and if you can have some patience and not get too carried way (I did, I now have 8 rectifiers and probably 30-40 pairs of tubes) it can be rewarding.

The 750 is very close to tubes, but it just is a tad "dry" when I compare it to the Dared. Sometimes I can't tell which is playing, the Dared or the 750, until vocals come in. They have more body with tubes. It's slight but a little extra body and "bloom" are always present with the tubes in the mix. The soundstage is always a bit wider as well with tubes. Not sure if this is real in the mix or just the enhancement the tubes give.

The two pre's, when level matched are damn close..........so close sometimes when I switch (via remote) with my eyes closed I have a hard time telling which is which.

H9

The simplicity of a great pre-amp like the GFP-750 is worth considering, no doubt.
For a guy like me who can't leave well enough alone tubes are the only way to go. With the Phillips tubes I have in there right now the mid's and bass are outstanding. The highs are great but the mids and bass are unbelievable. I am blown away at the sound stage, separation and clarity and a lot has to do with the Anthem. I have some secret cash coming in soon and a little, maybe $300, of it will be spent on 4 NOS tubes. Brent Jesse says if I don't like what I hear I can return them are try out others, you can't beat that.
I have to say this, tubes really are the way to go when it comes to a pre-amp.

kawizx9r

aiden wrote: »

kawizx9r
Thanks!
It's fun to get into new areas, but you feel like such a dummy until you get your feet wet and pick up a few pointers!
By the way, on your 2 channel-I had a Denon 2800 also. Had some issues with it(DVD skips and freeze ups) and sent it into be repaired. Denon had it three or four months, finally offered me a 2900 to replace it. I jumped on it! The 2900 plays SACD and Audio DVD's but not the HDCD. It worked great for a good 6/7 years. just recently started having problems playing SACD's. DVD'd and CD work fine.
I replaced the Denon a couple months back with a Onkyo DX 7555. It's just a CD player but it really does a great job on the Red Book CD's. I went back and forth between a NAD 1072 and the DX 7555. That's what got me started looking into a pre with a HT bypass. At some point down the line I would like to get all my music on a server and put a dac in front of the pre!

Yep, the more I read the more I learn

The Denon belongs to my friend, and I have the chance to purchase it but I'm not quite sure if I will. He's been cool enough to let me borrow it for awhile although I think I should return it already. I've never had problems with skipping/etc but I don't watch movies on it, I just listen to music. I'll take a look online at that Onkyo you're running, and if you don't mind how much did you pay for it? Once you pick your pre, let us all know what you got! I know I will when I do, since my weakpoint in my setup is using my AVR as my pre for 2 channel. :rolleyes:

treitz3

aiden wrote: »

I need to look into your suggestion of the Dodd Audio and Cary tub pre's. It sounds like they are in a higher price range new or used.

I can attest to SS's suggestion of the Dodd. I have a tubed Dodd MLP with the HT bypass and though I have never used it for that purpose, my 2 channel experience was brought to an entirely new level.

My ears thank me everyday.

aiden

kawizx9r,
I payed $399.00 on Amazon for the Onkyo DX7555. The price has gone up and down since I bought it. I was $593.00 about a month ago. It's $490 this morning on Amazon. The sound stage is larger and more holographic, especially compared to my 2900 Denon with the Brownblur dac. The Wolfson 192 kHz/ 24-bit dac in the Onkyo is a fine dac often found in higher priced CDP's. I believe the Cambridge Audio Azur 840C CD Player for one, has dual Wolfson dac's in their's. Which could also be used as a dac for other digital sources (has digital inputs). Price is steeper at $1499.00.
As for the pre, I'd like to hear from that face off (NJPOLKER and Lasareath) between the Anthem tub and Adcom SS. That would be a cool comparison of comparable priced tub and SS pre's.

heiney9

I 2nd the Dodd recommendation I had an ELP for demo which started out in Noel's hands (ND13) and then Doug's hands (dkg999) and now my brother owns it (blakeh). The thing with the Dodd's is they are scarce used.

The Dared Sl2000A is right up there with the Dodd as far as sound and build. It doesn't offer an HT bypass. It has (2) inputs and a remote for volume and is certainly worth considering and would fit in with the company mentioned so far in this thread. And is a little easier to find new and used.

Soon at one of our RAS get togethers I'd like to compare it to Doug's modded Rogue 66 to see who well it does. I forgot, are we moving a bit off topic here...........what was the question?

H9

ben62670

I find it funny when people call SS sand when glass is made out of what peanut butter?

aiden

2-channel Pre w/ HT bypass? Tub compared to SS and is the SQ up grade a real move up?
Choices/ preferences!
_____________________

Integra 9.8 W/ balanced interconnectors
Yamaha 2400 (used as amp for back surround in 7.1)
Anthem MCA 20
Anthem MCA 30
North Creek Vision Signature (FL, C, FR)
Polk RTi 6 (4 surround channels)
HSU vtf MK2 sub
Panasonic DMP-BD 35 (Blue Ray)
Toshiba HD-A2 (HD DVD)
Denon 2900 universal (SACD, DVD)
Onkyo DX 7555 (CD)
Samsung LCD 52 850
Monster HTS 3500

Dawgfish

ben62670 wrote: »

I find it funny when people call SS sand when glass is made out of what peanut butter?

That's funny, I've been thinking the exact same thing. I just figured I would leave it alone. But now that you mentioned it................ :-)

treitz3

Why do you park on driveways and drive on parkways?

reeltrouble1

ewwwww.......sand in your pants............grating in your ears.

RT1

aiden

NJPOLKER,
How did the runoff between the Adcom 750 and the Anthem PL2 go? Very interested in hearing!

Anyone know anything about an older SS Preamp Onkyo/ Integra P388f? Does it have a HT bypass? It's a mid 90's 2 channel pre.
Thanks,
Aiden