New Not-Quite-DIY Ninja Master mod for LSi9s and LSiC

praedet

All right folks, I know I don't have too many posts here, but I still wanted to let you in on some info that almost no one here knows about...

Because I was lucky enough to live in Colorado so I could respond to Mark's (markmarc) post about an LSi9 owner in Colorado, I was able to send in my unmodded LSI9s, and an LSiC, to the Skiing Ninja. I have no affiliation with Skiing Ninja, and just got lucky enough to send my speakers to Sean, the owner, for the test fit of a network upgrade. (And I get mine upgraded )

I think I am about 1-2 weeks from receiving them back, so I thought I would go ahead and post up the initial picture I have of the new LSi9 cross-over that will be going back in soon. Keep in mind the bypass caps (SoniCap Platinums) have not been attached yet, and obviously the wiring has not been done. But they are still pretty to look at

I am going to try to get Sean to post on here (I don't know what the rules are on that since he does have a company) because he took a LOT of measurements of the LSi9s and LSiC as part of figuring out what he wanted to do. I am hoping he will post them

When I get them back, I will have the LSi7s that I upgraded a few weeks ago to compare them to.

Ted

Face

Expect a night and day difference.

dkg999

I'll be in line for the LSi9/LSiC x-overs! As much as I would like to do them myself, time is the enemy! That's unfortunate since we have some good DIY talent here in the area!

The Ninja

Hi all. Ted asked me to comment here however I don't want to come off as trying to market anything in your house so I will keep my comments limited to answering specific questions.

Ted mentioned measurements - the measurements taken do show the speakers in a positive light and we have performed no circuit adjustments. May I post them to this thread along with some observations as well as what we are doing for Ted?

Thank you,

Sean

dkg999

Or maybe a link to the Skiing Ninja site with the info posted there, which I have to say I really enjoy reading the information and forums on.

The Ninja

At many forums, If I link to my site, it is against the rules so I'd rather not do that unless it is specifically permitted.

There isn't anything specific to the Polks up there yet anyway as we are still working on the upgrades. Certainly all the info and measurements will be listed.

I'm sure Ted can point you in the right direction once all is online.

Thank you,

Sean

dkg999 wrote: »

Or maybe a link to the Skiing Ninja site with the info posted there, which I have to say I really enjoy reading the information and forums on.

praedet

Glad to see you here Sean!

I am pretty sure you can post the measurements and observations without any problems!

The Ninja

OK, I'll get things together and post some info once I've gotten a little further with the upgrade process. I expect to be listening to some sublime tunes by Monday.

Thanks for the warm welcome.

Sean

praedet

The LSi9s are on their way to me Here is the LSiC network before wiring. Due to the size of all the componenets, it had to be broken into 3 boards, one for each speaker

TouchOfEvil

nice looking crossovers.

Face

I also had to break the LSiC crossover up into 3 pieces, there's not much room to work inside. The owner who's LSi15's, 9's, and C I upgraded, he said the upgraded LSiC was the most substantial of the bunch.

LessisNevermore

Welcome Sean!

What kind of time frame, until these are available? Cost?

F1nut

Keep in mind the bypass caps (SoniCap Platinums) have not been attached yet

You don't need bypass caps anymore when you upgrade from the stock stuff to high quality caps.

markmarc

I cannot encourage all LSi owners enough to seriously consider upgrading the crossovers. IMHO, the LSi's were incredibly shortchanged by being stuck with the stock crossover. The improvement is stunning whatever crossover upgrade design one uses.

As for Skiing Ninja, Sean is the real deal, one of the most decent guys I've have the pleasure to work with in audio.

Yes, I could kick myself for selling my LSi9 just weeks before getting an email from Sean.

dkg999

So when can I order these?

TouchOfEvil

i will be in the market for a upgraded lsic crossover since my 15's are already done up.

praedet

F1nut wrote: »

You don't need bypass caps anymore when you upgrade from the stock stuff to high quality caps.

I am not discounting your opinion, I am just wondering why you feel this way and yet there are very well-regarded cross-over designers that disagree with you?

I tried out some bypass caps on my own with the LSi7s. I am going to talk about them in the other thread

F1nut

Because it's been my experience that bypass caps, when used with poly/film & foil types, create artifacts. This, at first, sounds kinda neat because it's different, but quicky becomes annoying as hell.

After I came to my conclusion I found this article, which may interest you.

Bypass capacitors. In addition to the Multicap RTX, I have tried either .1 µF or .01 µF bypasses from Sonicap (Gen I and the Teflon® Platinum cap), Hovland, AudioCap, and Wima. In every case the results were similar. Let me digress for a minute or so (depending on how fast you read) and talk about crossovers.

In the simple first order high-pass crossovers we are using for this capacitor comparison, the value of the single capacitor, together with the impedance of the loudspeaker driver, determines the crossover frequency. An 8 µF capacitor with the 4 ohm impedance of the Magnepan quasi-ribbon tweeter gives a crossover frequency of about 5000 Hz (1/2πRC). A smaller value capacitor (for example, 4 µF instead of 8 µF) will raise the crossover frequency. If we used only the very small value .1 µF capacitor without the 8 µF, we would hear nothing because the crossover frequency is now almost 400,000 Hz. Even a dog would not hear it!

So why use a bypass at all? There are actually components of very high frequencies in some audio waveforms. Some are high order harmonics. If you think of a square wave, the right angles at the top of the wave are extremely high in frequency. Sometimes there are high frequency components in very fast audio sounds, for example, the instantaneous tap of a drum stick on a cymbal. These are the sounds that should be "helped" by including a small-value bypass capacitor in a high pass crossover.

Well, I don't think so. If the 8 µF capacitor blocks frequencies below 5000 Hz and passes frequencies above 5000 Hz, why do we need what is actually another crossover for the same tweeter, but operating at frequencies already passed by the big cap? I am sure engineers have a very good reason, and a couple of them have tried to educate me on this subject. I respect the science and electrical theory on this subject, and my technical background helps me to understand it fairly well. But there is one small problem: the bypasses all sound bad! They add a quality that at first sounds like an increase in air and detail, but after a couple of hours becomes an intrusive harshness and discontinuity in the upper treble. Remove the bypass: all of the detail is present but without that grating and annoying sound. The high frequencies are cleaner, smoother, and much more enjoyable. It doesn't matter if the bypass cap is Teflon®, polystyrene, or common polypropylene, the results are very similar. And to be avoided.

praedet

^^^Interesting...

Honestly, so far, I am not noticing ANYTHING that is the slightest bit more fatiguing. More clarity, but there is NO harshness at all. I have been listening to the speakers since I did the caps abou3 hours ago. Most of the time at VERY high volume. We’ll see as they get more broken in…

And my understanding is that the bypass cap is there to allow the larger value cap to discharge fully MUCH more quickly than it can without the bypass cap, since we do not want to use the "storage" side of caps in a speaker...

praedet

Here is what Sean says about them on his site. I have seen some posts by Danny Richie mirroring this reasoning for bypass caps...

The Skiing Ninja wrote:

Think of a capacitor as an energy storage device. Capacitors will store and release energy and are often used for that very reason. In the loudspeaker application though we are wanting to use them for the capacitive effects and not their energy storage capabilities.

The larger the cap the more energy it can store. Also larger caps take longer to charge and to discharge this stored energy. Different types of caps store and release energy at different rates too. For instance electrolytic caps are more known as being fairly slow to charge and discharge compared to other types of caps. However they are much less expensive and are often used in loudspeakers especially if large values are needed. Polypropylene caps like those used in many speakers are a faster cap. Not all poly caps are the same though. The really good ones are considerably more expensive than the more commonly used types.

When an audio signal is sent through a cap there is a small amount of lag time from charge to discharge. Often with larger caps, even after they are discharged there is still a small charge that is left as it did not completely discharge. The smaller values typically used in speakers like AV123's x-ls are not too bad. But there is still always some signature to the caps in the signal path. The audible effect is a smearing of the music. Notes will have a little trailing edge to them that blend into the next note. Again the larger the cap value the greater this effect.

By-passing the caps on the board with a fast discharging cap like 0.1uF (really small value) Sonicap Gen II will effectively short the larger cap out. The capacitance is hardly changed but shorting the larger cap with the small one will discharge it very quickly

Face

I can see bypassing working out well for LSi's that see mostly HT duty. As for music, YMMV.

praedet

^^^Why should it make a difference? If they improve one, shouldn't they improve the other?

I am actually confused. THere are some VERY well regarded cross-over designers that put them in ALL of their networks. And these networks use Sonicaps and mills like these upgrades on the LSis. Moreover these are for speakers that are used mostly in 2-channel.

I am not trying to start a fight here, I have read the posts on SDAs and removal of the bypass-caps, I am just wondering if that was a function of the actual bypass cap used, and where it was in the circuit, as opposed to actually being an overall problem with bypass caps...

Please educate me if the description I posted above on what they are supposed to do, and how they work, is wrong

praedet

deleted for double post

dorokusai

Just because a few of the "designers" you know agree on one thing doesn't make it the rule for the rest of the world. I haven't been in a room yet that everyone agreed on the same design, every time. Perhaps they should start their own company.

praedet

They have

F1nut

For instance electrolytic caps are more known as being fairly slow to charge and discharge compared to other types of caps.

That's correct and in the case of electrolytic caps, bypassing makes sense and it works. This, however, is not the case when using an already fast cap.

I have been listening to the speakers since I did the caps abou3 hours ago. Most of the time at VERY high volume.

It's far too early for you to judge the sound and especially not at VERY high volume levels. Wait until you've got at least 200 hours on them and listen at normal levels. After that, remove the bypass cap(s) and listen again. You may still prefer the bypass caps, but then again, you may find what a lot of us have, that it sounds better without them.

praedet

^^^Cool! Will do

McLoki

So, how do you mount the multiple boards in your LSiC or 9's? Do they have wires connecting them to the terminal cups and speakers? Will you have to solder them together after you get them? (reason I ask is that their will not be enough room behind the left or right speaker for all the boards and the cabinet is divided in half by ports. (i.e. - you cannot put everything behind the left woofer and "slide it" behind the right woofer to make room)

Just wanted you to be aware of it. I look forward to your impressions.

Michael

Face

praedet wrote: »

I am actually confused. THere are some VERY well regarded cross-over designers that put them in ALL of their networks. And these networks use Sonicaps and mills like these upgrades on the LSis. Moreover these are for speakers that are used mostly in 2-channel.

As F1 mentioned, sometimes it is done to improve the SQ of an electrolytic cap. It is also done to improve the SQ of cheap films. I've tried bypassing with a few different caps, some on the expensive side. The biggest positive I heard was being able to tune the sound to your liking by mixing the attributes of the two caps. But, I also noticed imaging was slightly smeared in comparison to using a single cap. So for the HF circuit(tweeter), I like to use a single cap when possible. For the midrange and woofer circuits, it's not a concern though IMO.

McLoki

praedet wrote: »

And my understanding is that the bypass cap is there to allow the larger value cap to discharge fully MUCH more quickly than it can without the bypass cap, since we do not want to use the "storage" side of caps in a speaker...

Based on that - would the best solution be to use a small value bypass cap of the same line as your other caps? i.e. - say you have a 16uf sonicap gen-1 cap you want to bypass - just add a .01uf or .1uf sonicap gen 1 in parallel and you are done. You should not get the sonic issues of 2 different caps but should still get the benefit of the faster discharge.

Would that work? If so, I will try to incorporate it into my LSi15 crossover upgrade. (and maybe order a few extras for my LSiC and LSi7's)

As another question - do you typically bypass all caps that are fully in the signal path, or just caps in the tweeter circut?

Thanks,

Michael

F1nut

You should not get the sonic issues of 2 different caps but should still get the benefit of the faster discharge.

"It doesn't matter if the bypass cap is Teflon®, polystyrene, or common polypropylene, the results are very similar. And to be avoided."