GRRRR....Mechanics and Impacts!!!

I-SIG

[RANT ON]

I absolutely HATE mechanics that hammer home the lugnuts on your wheels!!!! :mad:

Do they not know what hell a torque wrench is and why their manufacturer recommends a certain tight-but-not-too-tight torque?????

[/RANT OFF]

I called the service manager at the dealership to let him know my displeasure and to be sure to put a note on my account for the mechanics to use the F*CKING torque wrench the next time I'm in.

Luckily I was just rotating my tires in the driveway and not on the side of the road changing a flat!

Wes

petrym

I've sheared a 3/8" drive breaker bar because of air gun wielding doofuses. Had to to get a 1/2" drive breaker bar with a pipe extension to finally bust the lug nuts loose. Bastages.

ben62670

I am having fun presently working on my Pontiac Grand Prix. I raped the heads down to nothing. I have short block left in the engine compartment now. I really love the design of the engine, but it is very soft cast aluminum, and to of the casts are funky shaped. You really need to install them in proper torque sequence. What does this have to do with your wheels. I am even particular about taking a few steps on them with a torque wrench. It really irks me when an impact wrench can't get the lug nuys off.
Take care WES.
Ben

Sherardp

I love impacts, I have a ton of them but I use them correctly. Impact to nut seated then adjust with torque wrench. I do agree with you though OP and glad you got it worked out.

nooshinjohn

ben62670 wrote: »

I am having fun presently working on my Pontiac Grand Prix. I raped the heads down to nothing. I have short block left in the engine compartment now. I really love the design of the engine, but it is very soft cast aluminum, and to of the casts are funky shaped. You really need to install them in proper torque sequence. What does this have to do with your wheels. I am even particular about taking a few steps on them with a torque wrench. It really irks me when an impact wrench can't get the lug nuys off.
Take care WES.
Ben

working a 3.1 or a 3.4 Ben? Lower intake gasket perhaps?

ben62670

Yep 3100. Yep lower intake gasket. The head warped about .008. Not bad, but I had it apart so I had them deck it, and I also had them cut the valves and seats. The machinist was very surprised how clean the exhaust valves were for 170k. I run Marvel Mystery oil in the crankcase, and in the gas every once in a while too. Keeps it clean and keeps the millage very good. Over 31mpg (calculated) hwy. Not bad for a V6 in a full size. I am going to port match the heads with the intake, and exhaust manifolds, and remover some of the thin castings. I don't like hot spots even though I never had a problem with detonations. My driveway looks like a grenade went off in a parts store. The timing chain was very very tight. Nice double roller steel set. Push rod engine made life a bit easier.

nooshinjohn

did you have them magnaflux the heads? These things are notorious for cracking if they have been warped...

ben62670

Nope(their aluminium). I talked to him and he said those heads warp a lot, but he has never seen one crack. He did pressure check it. All that work was $100 both heads. I did have them apart for them. I have lots of tools here:) The only thing I really need is a 3/8 torque wrench. I have two 1/2" torque wrenches, but when you set them down low I don't trust their accuracy much. Like on the intakes:(

nooshinjohn

When I was writing service on these cars, they were cracked about 50% of the time, and always in the area where the spark plugs come into the combustion chamber. have him spend the 20 bucks and look HARD at those areas and be certain. The 3.1/3.4 are pos designs and the heads are one of their weakest links. Just looking out for you bro.

ben62670

I like the 3.1. I have heard bad things about the 3.4(totally different engine). I just looked at the heads real close. They look good. I was looking for any stain lines from gases etc... I see what you mean about the spark plug area. There is next to no meat there for threads. Plenty of room to thicken the casting, but why they chose to use a very shallow plug on an aluminum head:rolleyes: I don't understand why people design things the way they do. Are they scared that the plugs will freeze because of dissimilar metals?

GaryZ06

There are two reasons why they don't use a torque wrench and only two.Lazy and they don't care

Krazyz1

Most reputable tire centers use a torgue bar with the impact not to over tighten. Just to seat and then center tire. Then they use a torque wrench for final tighten. I worked for a Honda auto dealership back in 1978. Had to be REALLY careful with impact before final torque because the wheels sheet metal was so thin we were actually warping the wheels with the impact before final tighten with torque wrench. Seriously!!!!!

Krazyz1

Keiko , I agree with you on a rear wheel drive , but FWD rotors just slide over studs. NOW they might warp the drive hob or tweak the bearing , but really dont think it will harm a rotor on a FWD cause it is just sandwiched between drive hub and wheel. Just my opinion.

tonyb

Keiko wrote: »

I've seen rotors warped as a result of lugs not being torqued properly.

Same can be said for alot of members here.

Some are warped from not being torqued.

Had both the grand prix and grand am at one point and both were a p.o.s. Could never keep them out of the repair shop very long. Find something else Ben,don't waste your time.The only grand prix I loved was my old SJ,but good luck finding one of those.

exalted512

Thats one reason i go to discount tire and not firestone.

I had a flat one day, they took the tire off, decided to hole was too close to the sidewall to fix, so i told them to put it back on and took it somewhere else to get it fixed. Got to the other shop, they couldnt get it off with their impact wrenches.

So next time I needed new tires, I went to discount tire. They thread each lug nut on individually so they dont strip, then use an impact set at low air pressure, then use a torque wrench to finish it off. Thats the way it should be done, and i didnt even have to ask.
-Cody

ben62670

My Grand Prix has been great till I had a thermostat stick. I went out to warm it up on a real cold morning, and when I came out the gauge was pegged. I replaced the T stat and it still over heated over time. The radiator had developed a crack from getting so hot. I put a new radiator in it. The water pump seal was leaking a little bit out the weep hole so I changed the water pump($20 re manufactured). The intake was warped, and I did not fix it right away. I consider 170k on a car to only have issues till I overheated it a pretty solid car. This one is a 96. And again I was getting 31 mpg hwy right till the day I took it apart. Between gaskets and machine work I have about $300 into it. The transmission is tight, and so is the suspension. I need shocks, fix the air and I am good to go.

I-SIG

Sherardp wrote: »

I love impacts, I have a ton of them but I use them correctly. Impact to nut seated then adjust with torque wrench. I do agree with you though OP and glad you got it worked out.

My shoulders are definitely sore today from bustin' those lugs loose. Would probably be worse if I didn't play a little soccer this morning to work out that lactic acid.

FWIW, I was using a 4-way lug wrench and that much trouble. I mean, on a more than several, the dust flew when I finally broke them loose, probably both brake and aluminum dust. I had already statred to bend the factory lug wrench on a previous wheel rotation.

Wes

sucks2beme

I really like impact for "off". For on, 4 way is the way to go. I mean, really,
how much effort is it to spin on a lugnut? Just give the 4 way a couple of
spins, and the nut is ready for for the final tightening. I have had NTB
cross-tread/impact on lugnuts. I had one tire they put on where 3
studs broke off in removing the lugnuts. They really made a mess.
That turned into a whole weekend job. The only place I hate worse than
them is Pep Boys.

madmax

I had numerous rotors warp before figuring out that the lugnut who tightened my lugnuts was doing it wrong. After figuring this out I went to the guy and told him to either put them on finger tight and I would tighten myself or use a torque wrench. He said he always uses a torque wrench. I watched him. He pounded one on to hold the wheel then used a torque wrench on the rest of them. This is precisely what warps the rotors when they heat up! What a freakin idiott...

joeparaski

Hey guys, the problem isn't always because the lugnuts are too tight. It's usually because the lugnut sticks, or welds itself to the aluminum rim when they are tightened. Ever notice how it rarely occurs on regular steel rims even though they are tightened with the same impact tool?

At our shop we supply the guys with "Accutorque" adapters. These are specially designed "sockets" connected to the impact gun that torques the lugnuts to a predetermined value no matter how powerful the impact gun or air pressure there is. Even using this tool, we still get cases of "you installed the lugnuts too tight".

In a high-volume shop, there is no time to fiddle with a torque wrench, especially during the snow tire rush. That's what these specialty tools are for, but we use them all the time anyway.

Here's another issue....have you ever complained that the mechanic didn't tighten the lugnuts because you found them loose and nearly lost a wheel? Well, chances are, they WERE tightened, but the built up crust behind the aluminum wheel (between the wheel and the hub) broke up from being moved when the wheel was removed, and then flaked away, leaving a gap and the customer thinking that the wheels were not tightened. Moral of the story, clean the back of the rim where it contacts the hub before putting it back on. (yes, expect an extra charge for this service). If the customer doesn't want to pay, it's written on his work order that he refused and he signs it.


Being a large national chain of repair centers, we are constantly targeted with complaints such as wheels not being tightened or scratches on mag wheels etc etc.

It's gotten to the point that we have installed cameras throughout the shop to protect ourselves from mostly bogus complaints. I don't carry a cell phone, I carry a camera on my belt, and I take plenty of pictures of mags that are damaged or scratched BEFORE we even start to remove them from the car, or any other damage that a customer could try and blame us for.

Joe

I-SIG

Interesting points, Joe. I'm sure you've about seen it all but....

On my old truck with steel wheels, I never had problems with them being too tight once I started doing the work myself. I did not have problems the last time I rotated the tires on my own, but only after the dealer did the last rotation. (I needed other work done that I couldn't reasonably do so I had them do the rotation while it was in the shop.)

I could take my truck to the dealership to get the tires rotated for free, but they don't clean the back and inside of the wheels like I do, so I'd rather do it myself. Plus, I get the satisfaction of doing the work myself and knowing that if they are too tight, I only have myself to blame.

Wes

Jstas

I find that people's driving styles warp brake rotors more often than improperly torqued lugnuts. All those people on the highway, in rush hour parking lots, run up each other's butts then slam on the brakes. They do that cycling more times than I can count in a mile. Then they will go scream at the mechanic because it's obviously something the mechanic did wrong to make them need new brakes again after just getting them replaced 6 months ago.

It does suck though when the modern, aluminum alloy wheels oxidize and pit and get stuck to the steel wheel hub parts. I've found that a generous coating of anti-seize compound on both the mounting surface and the lugnut seats does several things. First off, it helps prevent the oxidation that "welds" lugnuts to their seats. It also gives a torque measuring mechanism a more accurate reading by lubricating the tightening surfaces. Lastly, it keeps the lugnuts from being too difficult to remove.

Now I know I can yank on a tire iron harder than most people I know but I can honestly say that it sucks having to do it on the side of the road at the worst possible time. But I've also found that even on cars with rotors that slide over the wheel studs, the rotor can still warp and tweak the studs enough to make removal of now binded up lugnuts difficult. It's often that same binding that breaks studs and that is a suck job to fix too.

ben62670

My car has 170k on it. I know that the plugs and the wires should be replaced. I will not buy expensive plugs like the platinum plugs. The plugs I used to use exclusively in my 68 Bronco is plain old MotorCrafts. They ran well with no issues and lasted at least 30k. Also the MotorCraft plug wires were better than anything in that price range. Is GM like like FMC in that respect? I have a 96 Pontiac grand Prix with the 3100 push rod V6.
Thanks for the input.
Ben

CALoff

Plus 1 on Discount Tire. Additionally, they will fix any flat tire (that is repairable) for free. I thought it was a scam but I brought in 2 tires so far (gotta love the Houston roads) and badda bing badda boom...free. They actually patch them from the inside and rebalance the tire. I figured they would just use a plug but guess not. When I inquired as to what the "catch" was, they said "please buy your next set of tires from us". Wierd business practice but I guess it must work.

exalted512 wrote: »

Thats one reason i go to discount tire and not firestone.

I had a flat one day, they took the tire off, decided to hole was too close to the sidewall to fix, so i told them to put it back on and took it somewhere else to get it fixed. Got to the other shop, they couldnt get it off with their impact wrenches.

So next time I needed new tires, I went to discount tire. They thread each lug nut on individually so they dont strip, then use an impact set at low air pressure, then use a torque wrench to finish it off. Thats the way it should be done, and i didnt even have to ask.
-Cody

madmax

Jstas wrote: »

I find that people's driving styles warp brake rotors more often than improperly torqued lugnuts.

If they are properly tightened you need a LOT more heat to warp than if only one is much tighter than the others. The improper driving only supplies the heat necessary for the problem to occur. Try it, one really tight and 4-5 hard stops is all it takes. whish...whish...whish...

Jstas

The issue with the repeated hard stops is that often the car stays stationary at the end of the stop with blisteringly hot brake pads clamping down on an equally blisteringly hot rotor in the heat soaked environment of the inside of a car wheel and wheel well. That causes uneven cooling of the brake rotors and the rotors expand and contract at uneven rates across the braking surface. That also occurs when lug nuts are improperly torqued. I know full well what improper torquing to fasteners can do in many instances, not just brake rotors. I just find that many times, mechanics are not being hamfisted gorillas when handling your precious vehicles and there is more at play. Mainly because I have done brake jobs properly and to manufacturer specifications with properly torqued lugnuts and still have had customers come back complaining of warped rotors and needing brakes within 6-12 months.

I too am concerned about over-tightened or under-tightened lugnuts but not necessarily because of warped rotors but rather due to damage to the wheels in the vein of cracked mounting surfaces, cracked lugnut seats and other compromises to the structural integrity of the wheel. Afterall, they are a tad more important than brakes. Yes, brakes allow you to stop but without the control surface of the wheels, the brakes are pointless.