Can you buy non ethanol gasoline anymore?

bikezappa

I have a 65 356 Porsche that is not running right. I have cleaned the carbs and the idle jets but they continue to get clogged.

As a test I would like to try non ethanol gas but can't find it any more. I have looked on goggle to find a list of stations in my area that sell non ethanol gas and have found nothing.

Maybe a marine or airports sell this gas.

I'm in MA. Does any one have any hopeful information?

Thanks

Peter

Sami

I doubt clogging is because of ethanol. If anything, it would dissolve them. Have you replaced your fuel lines with steel lines?

You could try to see if any race tracks sell non-ethanol race gas.

Jstas

I think part of your problem is that you are using goggle.com!

But seriously, most New England states have recently passed legislation to remove fuels with MTBE from the distribution due to water pollution problems. I know Conn. just banned it and I think Vermont outlawed it a while ago. Don't know about your state though.

But if you know how to set your timing, you can run down to the drag strip local to you. They should have a pump with Sunoco, Mobil/Exxon or VP racing fuels and you can get what's known as "purple gas". It's 100 octane stuff. Should lack ethanol. Should lack MTBE too. Legal for use in non-pollution controlled/off-road use cars only. But a 65 Porch, that should handle it just fine and be legal in most states except for The People's Republic of California. Just gotta worry about the advance. But your timing shouldn't be a big deal to set right and shouldn't affect you test once you get it set.

Jstas

Sami wrote: »

I doubt clogging is because of ethanol. If anything, it would dissolve them. Have you replaced your fuel lines with steel lines?

You could try to see if any race tracks sell non-ethanol race gas.

Not necessarily.

Ethanol carries water with it. It gets in a steel tank and sits at the bottom and causes corrosion. The fuel pump picks up the corrosion and sends it through the fuel system. It then clogs filters, lines, pumps, float bowls, jets and so on. That and ethanol rots the rubber gaskets and seals in most fuel systems. To make it safe, you need to have a plastic tank, fuel line rated for use with ethanol, stainless steel lines for the fuel system, a stainless steel pump and neoprene or urethane washers, gaskets and seals.

I've replaced enough clogged and destroyed injectors due to ethanol abuse to see the problem patterns. Most mechanics can tell you the same when they replace a fuel filter, drain it and a rust gasoline mud comes out.

Sami

Are you talking about E85 or also gas spiked with ethanol?

ben62670

I would be more concerned about the valve seats. Back then they used lead in the gas to protect them. In the early 70's they started using hardened valve seats. I used to have to get lead substitute for my ride. It's an additive you pour in the gas tank. I don't know if they even sell it anymore.

nadams

There's a local Shell station that the paper just ran an article on. They originally sold the 10% ethanol, but farmers were complaining about it junking up their tractors. They looked into it, and Shell still has the straight gasoline available to their distributers, so they switched to that. They now have big signs up all over the place advertising the fact that they are ethanol-free.

Jstas

Sami wrote: »

Are you talking about E85 or also gas spiked with ethanol?

I'm talking about E10. Gasoline with Ethanol added as an oxygenating additive.

E85 would rot out a car's fuel system in a matter of months if it wasn't "Flex Fuel" capable.

The standard gasoline engine can run on pure ethanol if you want. But the problem is that to run on ethanol or alcohol for that matter, you need different fuel system hardware.

Ethanol fueled vehicles can run a higher compression ratio though and that helps then get more grunt out of the fuel. But if it's Flex Fuel, it's gotta run on gasoline too and they can't run a higher compression ratio so fuel economy suffers greatly.

ViperZ

nadams wrote: »

There's a local Shell station that the paper just ran an article on. They originally sold the 10% ethanol, but farmers were complaining about it junking up their tractors. They looked into it, and Shell still has the straight gasoline available to their distributers, so they switched to that. They now have big signs up all over the place advertising the fact that they are ethanol-free.

In Canada, Shell "gold", premium gas, has no ethanol added to it.

Jstas

ben62670 wrote: »

I would be more concerned about the valve seats. Back then they used lead in the gas to protect them. In the early 70's they started using hardened valve seats. I used to have to get lead substitute for my ride. It's an additive you pour in the gas tank. I don't know if they even sell it anymore.

He could always run C16. That's a lead based fuel. Makes you woozie too. Should run on the timing set for gasoline too. It's just probably close to $10 a gallon now though.

concealer404

Jstas wrote: »

I'm talking about E10. Gasoline with Ethanol added as an oxygenating additive.

E85 would rot out a car's fuel system in a matter of months if it wasn't "Flex Fuel" capable.

I'm not trying to start a pissing match, as i haven't read numerous articles on this, so i have no quoted sources to back it up.

But i can verify from personal experience that it does NOT rot out a car's fuel system "in a matter of months." I run it on my Mazda with no ill effects other than needing to tune for some larger injectors. I have an otherwise stock fuel system, with the exception of a huge fuel pump.

DSM guys have been running E85 for quite some time on otherwise stock cars with no problems. Any car made since sometime in the early 90s has to be manufactured with the guidelines that there was going to be some Ethanol in gas anyways.

I've run E85 on multiple hondas with stock fuel system barring injectors with no problems, and a lot of the local tuning shops are recommending it now. I've been around at least 10-15 cars that weren't "set up" for E85 from factory that have suffered no ill effects other than worse fuel consumption. But, the cheaper cost of E85 outweighs that, or at least evens it out, giving free power when tuned for it. You can run a ridiculous amount of timing on E85.

Personal experience tends to not win points on this board, though. So just chalk it up to a "just sayin'."

bikezappa

Jstas is correct the enthanol dissolves the crud between the filters and the carbs which can clog the jets. I may just put in new fuel lines from the gas filters to the carbs. That line has 40 years of crud in it.

The engine was rebuilt with new valve seats about 20 years ago and has alway run great. The distributer is set for only 28 degrees advance which is sad because I lose HP but avoid pre-detonition which will break the top piston ring in no time because of the low octane available the past 20 years.

I have changed the plugs, checked the timing and valve clearance, cleaned all the jets and checked the float level, replaved the float valves but the engine still has some slight back firing at constant speed, no problem with idle or acceleration. It's driving me nuts. I have maintained this engine for over 20 years, it's like my child.

What is C16 and at $10 I probably can't afford it. Where is it sold?

Purple gas? Never heard of it. I'd like to try it however.

ben62670

Purple gas is Cam2?
Another problem with ___ol fuels is a lot of boats are running plastic fuel tanks. The tanks get soft and fill the bilge with fuel and fumes. I for one wouldn't want to be out on a boat that is a ticking time bumb(typo on purpose).

disneyjoe7

I hate todays gas, but my engine / cars run better with a little actone added to the tank. Just around 3oz for 12-15 gallons should work, you can notice the difference right away.

heiney9

nadams wrote: »

There's a local Shell station that the paper just ran an article on. They originally sold the 10% ethanol, but farmers were complaining about it junking up their tractors. They looked into it, and Shell still has the straight gasoline available to their distributers, so they switched to that. They now have big signs up all over the place advertising the fact that they are ethanol-free.

Not the Shell station's in my area.

Sami

bikezappa wrote: »

Jstas is correct the enthanol dissolves the crud between the filters and the carbs which can clog the jets. I may just put in new fuel lines from the gas filters to the carbs. That line has 40 years of crud in it.

That is a good idea.

I am thinking of converting one of my vehicles into ethanol in the near future, mostly because it would allow me to run higher boost.

petrym

Lots of non-ethanol here in Nebraska, though some stations (very few) have only 10% ethanol available.

---

I did a 5,000 mile trial of E10 vs. straight gas and these are the results:
E10: 18.1527389 mpg
Reg: 19.32903226 mpg
So I got 6% less mileage with E10

That doesn't help... but I'd be happy to drive, I mean store, the car for you. :D;)

Jstas

bikezappa wrote: »

I have changed the plugs, checked the timing and valve clearance, cleaned all the jets and checked the float level, replaved the float valves but the engine still has some slight back firing at constant speed, no problem with idle or acceleration. It's driving me nuts. I have maintained this engine for over 20 years, it's like my child.

What is C16 and at $10 I probably can't afford it. Where is it sold?

Purple gas? Never heard of it. I'd like to try it however.

Is it a backfire or a misfire?

A backfire would be an audible BANG! out the exhaust or the intake. That would be a timing problem due to either timing set too low or pre-ignition from either bad timing, bad plugs or hot spots. If it's stumbling or feels like something slipped for a second and you lost power, that's a misfire. If it's a misfire and only misfires when you are hustling it hard, that's likely a fuel problem. A gunked up carb would, without a doubt, cause that problem. But so would a new fuel filter installed backwards. Might be something worth checking. Also, check points and such although I think the Porches from 65 had electronic ignition so that might be a moot point.

CAM2 is a company. They make stuff made with petroleum distillates. Purple Gas is essentially high octane gasoline not meant for on-road use. It's called purple gas because a purple dye is added to it to be able to tell the difference between on-road gas and off-road gas. It's also know as agricultural fuel and different from agricultural diesel. It has a high octane, anywhere from 97 octane to 108. Depends on where you get it. Lots of fuel companies make and many people refer to it as CAM2 but CAM2 does not make or sell any fuel as far as I know.

C16 is a racing fuel from VP Fuels. It was designed for turbocharging, supercharging and nitrous application where high boost/high cylinder pressures are common. It's not gasoline. It's a petroleum fuel based fuel but it's high octane, over 112. It has lead in it too so it stinks. In the can, it smells like model glue. Being burned out the exhaust it has the sweet smell of a lead based fuel (which it is) and aggravates your eyes. Not good stuff to be around but great for racing and it's a spec fuel for a couple of NHRA classes. But, at $75 a gallon now, it's quite steep. I'm surprised at how far it went up. They were talking of upping production to reduce cost. Oh well.

bikezappa

The miss in through the Webers and it's only at constant speed. The lower the rpms in the 3000 range is the best range to feel the misfire. There is no loud back fire through the exhaust. I guess you would call it a misfire.

The idle circuits can effect the performance up into the 3000 rpm range. That's why I thought the idle jets were clogged. Anyway I cleaned every thing and I can adjust each idle screw for best rpms nicely now but I still have the misfire. The idle jets were clogged before cleaning.

I just want to try real gas to see if that's the issue. Tried of chasing my tail here.

The points are mechanical and they are dead nuts on. It is timed statically.

Jstas

What model Webers are they? 40's or 32's? Unless you have something different. I'm wondering which model cause I had a similar problem with a Granada with a Holley that would stumble on it's face over 2700 RPM but if you jammed your foot in to it full throttle, it would only hiccup a bit around 2500-3000 RPM and then keep going but run a bit rich. The problem with that was the accelerator pump diaphragm had a pinhole leak in it that would get stretched enough under high RPMs to drop pressure in the venturis. That would cause atomization of the fuel to almost totally disappear. That caused the cylinders farthest from the carb to starve for fuel and misfire. But under WOT, the power valve opened up and flooded the engine with fuel and that's what made it run rich. But the pin hole was making it stumble at a specific RPM range. A part that cost $7.94. We struggled with it for days trying to figure out what the hell was wrong.

bikezappa

They are 40IDF. It moves good when I hit the pedal to the metal, no stumble.

It stumbles at constant speed.

The 40 IDF are very common for this 4 cylinder.

Ethanol sucks and we have no option that I can figure out.

bikezappa

I'm going to replace the gas lines between the filter and carbs. Just need to go the parts store this week.

Jstas

Well, I have a bunch of carburetor books at home that cover Weber stuff. I'm thinking you have a fuel feed problem too. But if you need any diagrams or anything scanned, I'll see what I can find and upload.

bikezappa

Thanks Jstas. I have a good Weber book that tells all in great detail with many pictures.

You need to have the books if you keep this old car for 30 years.

I think I will need to clean the Webers completely but I don't have a compressor or dip tank any more and I'll sure the dip tanks are not sold any more. After 20 years they may need to be cleaned. I'm sure there are people that rebuild them.