Death of the CD? Your thoughts...

Montoya

It pains me to say it being that I like SACD,CD, and vinyl so much the digital download is the king of functionality. It just fits so easy into everyones day to day lives carrying an ipod is just that much more conventional than say a cd player that you can't fit in your pocket. I think out of the many people I know I am the only one that still buys CD media on a regular basis hi-fi buddies excluded.

Norm Apter

steveinaz wrote: »

IMO, Redbook is an extremely capable standard. I have heard too many very well recorded 16bit CD's that were every inch as involving as vinyl. The problem lies in the mastering/engineering. But good luck getting those standards raised.

Very few of us are passionate about the quality of music anymore, now it's all about the quantity.

I think Steve really hit the nail on the head with this post and it often goes overlooked: the mastering is far more important than the resolution (16- 20- or 24-bit) or the format: Redbook CD, DSD or SACD. Mediocre mastering and you're going to be left with a subpar sound quality, no matter what the medium or format. Maybe we should start a fund to keep the likes of Steve Hoffman and Alan Yoshida alive forever.

steveinaz

Every time I listen to a Donald Fagen/Steely Dan CD, I think "how much better can it get?" There are others as well that sound every bit as satisfying as anything I've heard.

Stereophile had an interesting article on their plea to engineers to stop "squashing" dynamic range on new recordings in favor of making cheap boom boxes, ipods, and miscellaneous other crap sound better. They estimate that most pop recordings contain about 6-14dB of dynamic range!! 6-14dB's???? Here we are as audiophiles, concerned because our CD player only has a dynamic range of 110dB!

http://blog.stereophile.com/rmaf2009/squeezing_the_music/

Until we hold engineers to a higher standard, there's no motivation to be concerned about audio quality.

One Genre of music that seems to have their **** together is the country music segment. I have yet to hear a poorly engineered country music CD; they seem universally well engineered. Being a city boy by birth, I was a country music hater for many years, but lately I enjoy listening to it because of the quality of the recordings. Maybe the pop "duds" could learn a few things from country music engineers?

BlueFox

It appears this thread is not really about the death of a digital music file storage system (CD), but rather the 'death' of being able to purchase accurately recorded music. While some may differ, it really does not matter if crap is on a CD, or if it is downloaded. It still is crap.

Maybe a high-res download is the saviour for audiophiles. From a cost perspective, there will be little differance to the music industry to provide a 99 cent compressed download for the masses, or provide the master file as a higher priced high-res download for audiophiles. Then again the music industry will whine and whine that people will just copy the high-res file, and give it away for free. Which is a valid point. However, based on the number of sites that now offer 24 bit high-res downloads maybe the music industry is starting to loosen up their control.

After getting the master files in high-res format there probably is software that will "compress" it down to CD quality for those who want to fondle a CD before playing the music. Others can just back up the high-res files on a DVD in order to have a physical copy, and play the high-res files back through a good DAC for even better sound quality than the CD.

Norm Apter

Bluefox, I think what Steve was trying to say (at least what I believe) is that the trend (irrespective of format) is to get things to sound "loud" with little dynamic range due to "noise reduction". Again, I don't think its a matter of high-resolution fitting or not fitting on a standard CD that is the critical issue, its really how the music was mixed and mastered, which is governed in part by how 'young kids' (the major consumers here) want to hear their music. They want to hear it loud. That has become synonymous with "sounding good" to them.

Here's another example to point up this trend: the Red Hot Chili Peppers. When I listen their Blood Sugar Sex Magic CD issued in 1993 I am incredibly impressed by how good the sound is. There's a great range and clarity. Off the top of my head, I have no idea what the resolution is. Heck, maybe its 16-bit (and given the date of the recording, that is a distinct possibility) But then if you were to listen to much of what the same band has produced since the year 2000 or so, you might be quite dismayed by the way things are mixed, with "loudness" abounding (and very little distance/range between the lower notes and higher ones. Its just all loud, a process that has become victim to the "loudness wars". Even putting these later releases in 24-bit resolution (or SACD,XRCD, DSD format for that matter) won't solve the problem of mix/mastering, I believe. From my understanding, these are two unrelated issues.

Now, I was one of the ones who likes the totality of what the CD offers, but my predisposition for CDs (over digital downloads) doesn't really have anything to do with the issues discussed in the paragraph above.

steveinaz

I was kind of wandering off the path of the topic---but HELL NO I don't want to have to download my music. That crap is for the "plugged-in" generation. I want to open a drawer, clean a needle, wipe a disc; I'm old school, I want to participate in the event. I want my purchase in my hand. If vinyl was still readily available, I would probably be running a TT setup again.

BlueFox

steveinaz wrote: »

I was kind of wandering off the path of the topic---but HELL NO I don't want to have to download my music. That crap is for the "plugged-in" generation. I want to open a drawer, clean a needle, wipe a disc; I'm old school, I want to participate in the event. I want my purchase in my hand. If vinyl was still readily available, I would probably be running a TT setup again.

LOL. Bah. Humbug. Flibitty flabitty. You remind me of my father.

I turned 60 in September. I haven't downloaded any music yet myself, but that is not because of the quality of the music, but because I want a dedicated music server like a Meridian Sooloos, but not at the Sooloos price.

http://www.meridian-audio.com/sooloos/

apphd

I need to go back and read all of this thread, because maybe this has already been said (probably many times) but being an audio enthusiasts site we have a different view than the majority. No matter how correct we are about audio quality, and no matter how hard it is for us to understand WHY the majority don't get it, or hear it, the fact is the vast majority of consumers do not care about accurate music reproduction. Nothing we do will change that other than the possible 3 or 4 converts we may produce by letting them listen to our gear. But that 3 or 4 is out of maybe 50 opportunities over our life time. We are a minority and although we will not die out we will always be a minority.

I do not think CD or vinyl is going to die for some time, because we exist there is a market. As long as there is $$$ to be gained someone will supply the goods to get that $$. Only problem for us will be how available it is, and how much it will cost (supply/demand).
just my $.02 which again because of supply and demand isn't worth much:D

SolidSqual

steveinaz wrote: »

I was kind of wandering off the path of the topic---but HELL NO I don't want to have to download my music. That crap is for the "plugged-in" generation. I want to open a drawer, clean a needle, wipe a disc; I'm old school, I want to participate in the event. I want my purchase in my hand. If vinyl was still readily available, I would probably be running a TT setup again.

I'm 26 and I got vinyl coming out of my eye-balls. My Dad is 53 and he's stunned how popular vinyl has become once again. There's 5 shops around me that are loaded with the big plastic discs.

Now, more than any time before is the time to listen to vinyl. The technology is far superior than 30 years ago. With new age materials and techniques, LP's beat the pants off CDs in terms of sound. With proper care, an LP can be virtually free of clicks.

I think you are just being a lazy old man. Vinyl will add years to your life.

vc69

Norm Apter wrote: »

Here's another example to point up this trend: the Red Hot Chili Peppers. When I listen their Blood Sugar Sex Magic CD issued in 1993 I am incredibly impressed by how good the sound is. There's a great range and clarity. Off the top of my head, I have no idea what the resolution is. Heck, maybe its 16-bit (and given the date of the recording, that is a distinct possibility) But then if you were to listen to much of what the same band has produced since the year 2000 or so, you might be quite dismayed by the way things are mixed, with "loudness" abounding (and very little distance/range between the lower notes and higher ones. Its just all loud, a process that has become victim to the "loudness wars". Even putting these later releases in 24-bit resolution (or SACD,XRCD, DSD format for that matter) won't solve the problem of mix/mastering, I believe. From my understanding, these are two unrelated issues.

Now, I was one of the ones who likes the totality of what the CD offers, but my predisposition for CDs (over digital downloads) doesn't really have anything to do with the issues discussed in the paragraph above.

I agree completely, thing is I have every reason to believe it's the mastering process that goes awry. Rick Rubin is a masterful producer. He produced both BSSM and Stadium Arcadium (which suffers from being WAY compressed).

The thing is, it doesn't sound very different on the car radio, TV, computer, iPod headphones, whatever. That's the reason they do that. We that buy the CD get f**ked because the record company wants it to sound the same on every medium it may see playback. You can crank the crap out of it in the car and it sounds good, but if you crank it on a decent stereo it hurts to listen to it.

steveinaz wrote: »

Every time I listen to a Donald Fagen/Steely Dan CD, I think "how much better can it get?" There are others as well that sound every bit as satisfying as anything I've heard.
<snip>

I overlooked your post and said basically the same dang thing.

So... what you said minus the "country music" part. I effing hate that pop country crap regardless of it's musical fidelity.

sucks2beme

steveinaz wrote: »

One Genre of music that seems to have their **** together is the country music segment. I have yet to hear a poorly engineered country music CD; they seem universally well engineered. Being a city boy by birth, I was a country music hater for many years, but lately I enjoy listening to it because of the quality of the recordings. Maybe the pop "duds" could learn a few things from country music engineers?

Nope, I've got some juiced "new country" stuff.
There's no getting away from it. It seems to be just about everything
in the last couple of years. They even remastered some Billie Holiday,
and it sounded perfectly awful.

BlueFox

Glad my musical taste evolved into classical, and away from R&R/rap. Sounds (no pun) as if recording has gone to Hades over the last decade.

F1nut

Maybe we should start a fund to keep the likes of Steve Hoffman and Alan Yoshida alive forever.

I've been doing my best to fund those guys, just ask my wallet.

steveinaz

SolidSqual wrote: »

I'm 26 and I got vinyl coming out of my eye-balls. My Dad is 53 and he's stunned how popular vinyl has become once again. There's 5 shops around me that are loaded with the big plastic discs.

Now, more than any time before is the time to listen to vinyl. The technology is far superior than 30 years ago. With new age materials and techniques, LP's beat the pants off CDs in terms of sound. With proper care, an LP can be virtually free of clicks.

I think you are just being a lazy old man. Vinyl will add years to your life.

I'm completely aware of the virtues of vinyl. I had turntables for years, many of them very nice. I just don't want to sink the kind of money I would into it, until its "comeback" is a little stronger. I am starting to see new vinyl in some local video/record stores--which is pretty damn exciting.

BlueFox

Norm Apter wrote: »

Here's another example to point up this trend: the Red Hot Chili Peppers. When I listen their Blood Sugar Sex Magic CD issued in 1993 I am incredibly impressed by how good the sound is.

This has been in my mind since you posted it. Last night I went through my CDs, and found that CD. You are right. It does sound great. To bad there is only one song on it that I like. However, I will add that song to my R&R playlist on my music server.

Motzart

Disc records survived for almost 100 years!
Came in around 1915-1923 and went out around till mid 1990's.
CD came in around 1985? I doubt it's dead yet!

Any taped music didn't last cuz it wasn't very durable.....8 track LOL
Cassette tape didn't really last long....again durability wasn't there.

CD's are pretty durable and hold a ton of tracks.
I still have CD's I bought when the first came out and have been played a TON of times...still like new.
Hard to see it going by the way of computer downloads.
Nothing like having cover art and having a actual "Album" in hand.
I'm not worried....CD won't be going away any time soon.

Danny Tse

Linn announced it will stop production of its CD player, although the article failed to mention that Linn will continue to produce its universal player and release recordings on CD and SACD.

bigaudiofanatic

OP I agree with you, I love being able to watch my shelf get smaller and smaller as my collection grows. It is like a part of you and it is a cool conversation pace for people coming into your room. They are like wow you have a lot of music. I doubt that the cd will die I do think however we are going to a different format to hold our music weather that be micro cd's or digital. The sad part will be digital but I think cd;'s are here to stay for a while. I do say that I use my computer for my music collection playing rather than my actual cd's but when I am about to head somewhere I like to grab a cd for the road.

cnh

For the most part I agree...with the above. But there are some factors I would like to add into the equation.

1. Storage Media and download speads are getting bigger and faster respectively. Therefore there would be less of a problem moving from Mp3 to lossless digital formats...once someone figures out how to "market" that....perhaps APPLE itself as it's NEXT big idea...millions will flock to download LOSSLESS and the Lossless ipod could become as popular as the previous Mp3 version??

2. The Movie industry would be quite happy, as perhaps the music industry might also be, to ensure that NONE OF US "OWNS" ANYTHING ANYMORE!

Streaming media with a one time use fee..could become the norm...or the model. In which case we would own no hard copy of anything, no CDs, no DVDs, no Blu-rays...and we would PAY each and EVERY time we wanted to listen to something or watch it.

In the best case scenario this might be a 'subscription' model that allows you to Listen or View a certain amount a month but NOT OWN it.

Wouldn't that be a boon to the industry. Of course the problem there will be 'hackers' who will be able to defeat CP and actually download the digital material?

Just a few thoughts....hardly a crystal ball....

cnh

wayne3burk

I almost bought a Yamaha CD-420 for $25 from Goodwill the other day.... but i don't own any CD's anyway.... But my vinyl collection grows faster than i can play my albums

Norm Apter

cnh wrote: »

Streaming media with a one time use fee..could become the norm...or the model. In which case we would own no hard copy of anything, no CDs, no DVDs, no Blu-rays...and we would PAY each and EVERY time we wanted to listen to something or watch it.

In the best case scenario this might be a 'subscription' model that allows you to Listen or View a certain amount a month but NOT OWN it.

Geez, I hope not. I would absolutely hate that kind of model. There are some movies that I like to watch over and over again, and thats not even to mention music.

Shoot, I've never even used Netflix and haven't rented something from Blockbuster or some such rental place in over 5 years. I check out all my DVDs and many CDs from the library. If I really like them and know that I'd like to watch and listen to them again, I'll then buy a copy.

I hope I'm not the only one a bit freaked out by the prospect of pay-per-use as the standard. As an option fine, but I would never want the one-time-purchase option to disappear. And with regard to music, some albums you need to listen to numerous times. The notion that I would be limited over a certain period or have to pay each time I listened would be terribly destructive to the enjoyment factor, mitigating those long-drawn out discoveries.

louhamilton

Norm Apter wrote: »

Geez, I hope not. I would absolutely hate that kind of model. There are some movies that I like to watch over and over again, and thats not even to mention music.

Shoot, I've never even used Netflix and haven't rented something from Blockbuster or some such rental place in over 5 years. I check out all my DVDs and many CDs from the library. If I really like them and know that I'd like to watch and listen to them again, I'll then buy a copy.

I hope I'm not the only one a bit freaked out by the prospect of pay-per-use as the standard. As an option fine, but I would never want the one-time-purchase option to disappear. And with regard to music, some albums you need to listen to numerous times. The notion that I would be limited over a certain period or have to pay each time I listened would be terribly destructive to the enjoyment factor, mitigating those long-drawn out discoveries.

I never thought of this. I'm going to the library tomorrow and see what they have!

Libertyc

Most tapes last 30 years +.. longer than some Cds.

BlueFox

louhamilton wrote: »

I never thought of this. I'm going to the library tomorrow and see what they have!

1 DVD/CD to loan for every 1000 borrowers.

Actually, it does seem to be a good deal. While I do not use it, I know others who do, and they love it. However, the selection is not as varied as Netflix.

Norm Apter

louhamilton wrote: »

I never thought of this. I'm going to the library tomorrow and see what they have!

You might be surprised. It all depends on the collection of your library. I actually learned this from my dad who used to check out movies (on VHS) in the 1990s this way. Though my parents live in a medium-small sized town (Williamsburg, VA), the local library has an excellent collection so you might just be surprised. The key tip that I learned from my dad is reserving stuff online. You just do a title search, and then if its checked out, you just reserve it. The library will notifiy you when its in. And they'll usually hold the item for one week or 10 days, so you can wait until a few titles are in before making a trip there.

Now that I live in West L.A., I'm dealing with a library of an even much greater scale and collection -- Santa Monica Library. They have everything, well almost everything. And for those major films, its not uncommon for them to have 6-8 copies of each so I've rarely had to wait more than a week to see what I want to see.

I mean I don't even have basic cable but this is how I see Curb Your Enthusiasm, Entourage, and Mad Men, plus just about any film thats come out over the past 2 decades. I haven't been to a movie theater in over 4 years, don't get cable and don't rent movies...with a little patience, I find its much better to watch it in my own home on my own system. Why else would I fork over several hundreds of dollars for my RtiA speaks?