Rhetorical scenario

concealer404

Let's say that someone owed me money on a car. Let's also say that the car is titled and registered under my name, in my state. No bill of sale, nothing with that person and my signature on it exists. Nothing but a verbal contract with the buyer that they owe me said amount of money. (Dumb, i know. Consider lesson learned.)

Now let's say that the buyer refuses to send me that money, and instead wants to try to go to court to get the title out of me. Still keeping in mind that the car is still titled and registered in my name, not theirs. Buyer would like to take me to court for the title AND make me pay for court costs, lawyer costs, etc....

Would this person be as high as i think they would be?

ViperZ

Doesn't it depend on how good their lawyer is (in the States)?

concealer404

ViperZ wrote: »

Doesn't it depend on how good their lawyer is (in the States)?

Sure, i can imagine that that may have a bearing on the situation. But as far as i can see, they would be trying to go to court to take possession of something that as far as the government is concerned, is mine.

SolidSqual

What's the value of the car? Is it still in Indiana? Did the guy put any money into the car?

concealer404

SolidSqual wrote: »

What's the value of the car? Is it still in Indiana? Did the guy put any money into the car?

Value of car is ~$2500. It is NOT in Indiana currently. He did in fact put money into the car. He owes me a relatively small amount of money on it, $400, and refuses to pay. However, and this is where the problem lies, there is no bill of sale, simply the Indiana issued title with my name on it, and the registration/plates in my name.

I have both a state trooper and a dealership owner saying that he's high as a kite, but i got some decent advice in my last legal matter (which turned out to be a mistake on the gubment's part, no way!!) here, or at least a few points that i wouldn't have thought of on my own to investigate, and was just curious what ya'all thought.

Knucklehead

Report the car stolen.....That'll teach the ****:D

concealer404

Knucklehead wrote: »

Report the car stolen.....That'll teach the ****:D

Ironically enough, that's what the state trooper told me to do.... I don't really want to, though. I don't want the car, and if i take the car back, i don't have, nor want to pay the money back to him that he's put into it. I don't want just taking the car back and leaving him out that money on my karma, but if he's going to press the issue and take it to court, then court (from all research and answers i've gotten) is just going to award me the car. Court won't see the issue as a money issue, since there's no contract in place, but rather an ownership issue, and that's pretty cut and dry.

I just want the $400. I don't want to screw him out of a car that i have no use for.

kawizx9r

"Verbal contracts" go nowhere, and since the car is still under your name/etc....it's still yours as far as I know.

Think about it too, if he tried to take you to court/etc. can he legitimately provide proof that he indeed pay you anywhere near the value that you asked? Find out as much as you can regarding how much he's paid and get back at him by saying he owes you more than he's paid....rhetorically speaking that is

Do I hear emotional distress? :eek::D

Knucklehead

Thats cool....If you have an open line of communication with this person you could at least tell him your going to....regardless, your in the clear here as far as I see it, sucks he wants to drag it out like that and still end up losing the car. Hope everything works out.

concealer404

kawizx9r wrote: »

"Verbal contracts" go nowhere, and since the car is still under your name/etc....it's still yours as far as I know.

Think about it too, if he tried to take you to court/etc. can he legitimately provide proof that he indeed pay you anywhere near the value that you asked? Find out as much as you can regarding how much he's paid and get back at him by saying he owes you more than he's paid....rhetorically speaking that is

Right. It's the fact that we were dumb enough to not write anything up that puts us here.

Paper trail be damned showing the money that he's got in it, it's my car. Honestly, i don't believe it's going to matter if he can even fake proof that he's got $10k into the damn thing.

But regardless. Without a bill of sale and/or receipts showing amounts paid, there's no proof anyways.

What i think is going to happen if he really does go through with this, is that i'll end up with the car back, and then i'll offer to sell it to him for $400. Like i said, i'm not out to screw the guy, i don't want that karma, stigma, whatever. It's just wrong. He needs the car, i don't.

kawizx9r

You should just let me have it
I'll find someone/somewhere to trade it in for a pair of Polk's :D:D

concealer404

Knucklehead wrote: »

Thats cool....If you have an open line of communication with this person you could at least tell him your going to....regardless, your in the clear here as far as I see it, sucks he wants to drag it out like that and still end up losing the car. Hope everything works out.

Yeah... I dunno. Reporting it stolen or even threatening to won't happen unless i get contacted by a lawyer or court or whatever. I'm trying to keep from having the car come back to me. I have enough early 90s Japanese metal in my possession already. I'm over it.

It sucks for him to want to do that.... as far as i can see, i have no negative repercussions out of this. It'd be one thing if there was a chance of me getting screwed, i'd WELCOME the chance to take this thing to court, but he's going to sit here and screw himself. I probably won't have to say a word.

fossy

How has he been paying you ?? Check MO Cash ??? It may not be worth the headache for 400 bucks , IMO . You can easily get the car back & totally screw him but sounds like your not interested in doing that.

concealer404

kawizx9r wrote: »

You should just let me have it
I'll find someone/somewhere to trade it in for a pair of Polk's :D:D

I've got people damn near fighting over the thing out here. Everyone i've talked to has said pretty much: "Report it stolen! It's your car! By the way, would you sell it to ME for $400?!?!?"

The guy that owns the dealership wants it, my roomate wants it, i could sell this thing in a day for $2000 if i wanted to.

SolidSqual

When did you sell the guy the car?

I think you have some Statute of Frauds issues. Also, the amount is pretty much too low to make it sensible to seek any legal advice. Without doing some research, I'm not quite sure about title, but it matters less since the guy has already put $2K into the car (if you sold it for $2,500).

concealer404

fossy wrote: »

How has he been paying you ?? Check MO Cash ??? It may not be worth the headache for 400 bucks , IMO . You can easily get the car back & totally screw him but sounds like your not interested in doing that.

Cash, bartering, etc... There's no real paper trail directly pertaining to the car other than some parts purchased for it.

As for worth the headache? Headache will all be on him. More the principle of things. $400 is a lot of money to me. I have my own cars that need work, and $400 would be a BIG milestone for my main project, that getting the new tranny/lsd/axle setup set to go.

But yes, i'm definitely not interested in **** him. But i'm CERTAINLY not interested in eating the $400.

concealer404

SolidSqual wrote: »

When did you sell the guy the car?

I think you have some Statute of Frauds issues. Also, the amount is pretty much too low to make it sensible to seek any legal advice. Without doing some research, I'm not quite sure about title, but it matters less since the guy has already put $2K into the car (if you sold it for $2,500).

Statute of Frauds? Can you explain more? Not familiar with that.

I know that i wouldn't be able to countersue or whatever in court for the $400, since there's no written contract at hand.

Grimster74

Knucklehead wrote: »

Report the car stolen.....That'll teach the ****:D

My thoughts exactly!!!!

phoneisbusy

What I don't get is it's probably going to cost him $400 to get a lawyer involved and court costs. Why doesn't he just give that to you and be done with it?

Good luck with this situation.

Dave

kawizx9r

Maybe he thinks he can win or take you to court due to the fact that he's put money in it, and probably looked into it somewhere that said vehicle has to be in his possession for a certain amount of time...hmmmm

In what state is the car in now?

concealer404

kawizx9r wrote: »

Maybe he thinks he can win or take you to court due to the fact that he's put money in it, and probably looked into it somewhere that said vehicle has to be in his possession for a certain amount of time...hmmmm

In what state is the car in now?

California. Been there since May.

concealer404

phoneisbusy wrote: »

What I don't get is it's probably going to cost him $400 to get a lawyer involved and court costs. Why doesn't he just give that to you and be done with it?

Good luck with this situation.

Dave

He says he's going to make me pay the costs.

BigMac

Imo since you are in the right and he is in the wrong you may want to consider this option. Neither of you are going to change your minds it seems so here is my solution. He owes $400.00 and you need the money to help fund other projects right? Offer him a one time deal of half. Explain to him that going about this the way he is is going to cost him alot more in the long run. Tell him that if he gives you $200.00 everything is good. Yes you will be giving in to some extent. At least you will have more money than you originally had.

Some battles are just not worth the trouble imo. You are in the right to do everything you can to get the $400.00 but at the end of the day it may be more trouble than it's worth. Plus, since the car is not in town think of the towing fees and or storage fees if you have it picked up. Just my .02.

SolidSqual

Don't declare the car stolen. It's not exactly stolen, and you could get nailed for filing a false police report among other things. Also, you could pretty much kiss any mediation between the both of you goodbye.

SolidSqual

http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/title32/ar21/ch1.html

Here's just a portion of relevant text:

IC 32-21-1-1
Requirement of written agreement; agreements or promises covered
Sec. 1. (a) This section does not apply to a lease for a term of not more than three (3) years.
(b) A person may not bring any of the following actions unless the promise, contract, or agreement on which the action is based, or a memorandum or note describing the promise, contract, or agreement on which the action is based, is in writing and signed by the party against whom the action is brought or by the party's authorized agent:
(1) An action charging an executor or administrator, upon any special promise, to answer damages out of the executor's or administrator's own estate.
(2) An action charging any person, upon any special promise, to answer for the debt, default, or miscarriage of another.
(3) An action charging any person upon any agreement or promise made in consideration of marriage.
(4) An action involving any contract for the sale of land.
(5) An action involving any agreement that is not to be performed within one (1) year from the making of the agreement.
(6) An action involving an agreement, promise, contract, or warranty of cure concerning medical care or treatment. However, this subdivision does not affect the right to sue for malpractice or negligence.

concealer404

SolidSqual wrote: »

Don't declare the car stolen. It's not exactly stolen, and you could get nailed for filing a false police report among other things. Also, you could pretty much kiss any mediation between the both of you goodbye.

I think stolen was the wrong term.... unauthorized control or something like that. The trooper said that if i explain the situation fully, it's not really the same thing. But yeah, i gotcha.

concealer404

SolidSqual wrote: »

http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/title32/ar21/ch1.html

Here's just a portion of relevant text:

IC 32-21-1-1
Requirement of written agreement; agreements or promises covered
Sec. 1. (a) This section does not apply to a lease for a term of not more than three (3) years.
(b) A person may not bring any of the following actions unless the promise, contract, or agreement on which the action is based, or a memorandum or note describing the promise, contract, or agreement on which the action is based, is in writing and signed by the party against whom the action is brought or by the party's authorized agent:
(1) An action charging an executor or administrator, upon any special promise, to answer damages out of the executor's or administrator's own estate.
(2) An action charging any person, upon any special promise, to answer for the debt, default, or miscarriage of another.
(3) An action charging any person upon any agreement or promise made in consideration of marriage.
(4) An action involving any contract for the sale of land.
(5) An action involving any agreement that is not to be performed within one (1) year from the making of the agreement.
(6) An action involving an agreement, promise, contract, or warranty of cure concerning medical care or treatment. However, this subdivision does not affect the right to sue for malpractice or negligence.

So basically, this all says that he doesn't exactly have a leg to stand on, either....

For the record, i'm perfectly content to sit here and wait for my $400. If any legal action is taken, it'll be by him. I'm not about to threaten him with anything, just continue to maintain that i want the $400.

Storage fees in the event that this all goes down are not an issue. I could be out there tomorrow and back with the car by Saturday morning if it had all happened yesterday. I have PTO saved up at work.

SolidSqual

Yeah nothing would stand very long in a court. Next time you sell something of that value, get it in writing.

concealer404

SolidSqual wrote: »

Yeah nothing would stand very long in a court. Next time you sell something of that value, get it in writing.

Yup! Lesson definitely learned.

Looks like i just sit back and wait. I appreciate it man.

joeparaski

Contact Judge Judy or Judge Joe Brown or.....

Joe

apphd

What is his reasoning for holding back the $400? Not that it matters much since this was a verbal contract, but does he feel you misrepresented the condition of the car and he had to put money into it for things that were supposed to be good? Or is this what he might claim? B.T.W. there are state and federal laws regarding verbal contracts and and they may have time stipulations, so I would try to find out what Indiana law is on a verbal contract. With out witnesses, verbal contracts become very difficult to enforce, and for $400 some courts could become irritated trying to sort it out.

On another note this car and plates are in your name, which would suggest to me that you are responsible for the car. How is it insured? I would be more concerned about getting it out of my name before it ends up costing you more than the $400.

I am not a lawyer or anything at all close to knowledgeable in law, these are just me thinking out loud so to speak.

Good luck.