Time for a new receiver, input needed

AsSiMiLaTeD

I abandoned the whole surround sound thing about 2.5 years ago. We moved from a house to an apartment looking for a lower maintenance lifestyle and I decided to simplify by selling all the HT gear and going back to a 2 channel setup for the living room.

Right now this setup consists of the following:

Harman kardon HK 3480 2 channel receiver
Polk LSi7
Toshiba HD-A35 (HDDVD and DVD Player)
Sony PS3 (Blu Ray Player)
Sony ES SACD player
Toshiba 57H93 57" RPTV (1 DVI Input, no HDMI)
Oppo HDMI Switch
Nintendo Wii


With the HD formats supporting lossless audio I'm interested in going that route. I actually have several questions that I'd like help with as I'm not fully up to speed on the new audio formats. There are a few questions so I've numbered them, bear with me here...

1 - Right now I'm using the analog audio from the PS3 out to my receiver. I would assume that in doing so I'm NOT getting the lossless audio track because I doubt the PS3 is converting that. When using that connection from my PS3, what exactly AM I getting sent to the HK to play back?

2 - Same scenario, same question as above for the Toshiba HD DVD player

3 - Let's say I pick up a receiver that does all the decoding and send the signal from the PS3 via HDMI. Would I be able to get the lossless track even if I still kept only the two front speakers, or would I need the full speaker setup to get that track? Let's say for the moment that I don't care about the surround effects, just want the cleanest track through the front two speakers. I have not made this decision yet, but the answer to this may influence that decision.

4 - is there really THAT big of a difference between the regular and the lossless tracks?

Finally, I need to think about options for a receiver. The trick is going to be finding something within my budget ($500) that isn't a huge step backwards from the 3480 for music playback. The 6480 is a damn nice 2 channel receiver, so I know I'm not going to get something that's as good for 2 channel playback that's within my budget, and I'm okay with that because I don't listen critically to music much anymore on that system. However, I don't want to take a HUGE step back either, if all my choices in this price range aren't very good for music then I'll just wait until I can afford a better unit.

5 - That being said, I'm looking currently at the HK AVR 254 and the Onkyo 805/806 models. Whatever I choose needs to mate well with the LSi7 that I have because those aren't going anywhere. I'm actually leaning more towards the Onkyo, are there any key differences between the 805 and 806 that I need to consider, other than more HDMI on the 806? Any input on how those would mate with the LSi? The idea is to also get something with pre-outs so that I can add an amp later if I want.

Lots of questions I know, just trying to look at my options and formulate a plan, appreciate any input.

kawizx9r

This is just a shot in the dark, and I say this because I've read about it, not having experience it.
Apparently PS3 can do the new formats and stream over optical but that it only sends the track for 2 channels. If you do it over hdmi, you'll get it for all surround channels. (Not sure what PS3 can internally decode) I could be wrong but I just remember reading up on it to decide whether or not I'd want a PS3 again or just go with a bluray player with multichannel analog outputs that internally decodes and sends over LCPM.

AsSiMiLaTeD

I'm not using the optical on the PS3 because my receiver doesn't have it, I'm using the analog outputs.

kawizx9r

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

I'm not using the optical on the PS3 because my receiver doesn't have it, I'm using the analog outputs.

I get it, you meant the composite outputs on your PS3 (red/white/yellow....with yellow being video of course)

I had one member go from using composite to optical and it was a whole different world for him.

I'm not at all sure about the HD-DVD thing since I've never gotten into it at all. If you want to use your PS3 as a bluray player and utilize the latest surround codecs I'd check to see if it can send that signal over HDMI (if it supports them that is, but it probably does) to your soon-to-be-receiver.

I'm looking to get into the lossless audio/newest codecs as well and with a non-hdmi receiver, an internally decoding player with multichannel analog out's is my only option unless I decide to buy another receiver.

Btw, I've heard a hell've alot of great things about the Onkyo's youre looking at. Considered one myself, as well as the HK 254 (since it's on the cheap, great when used as a pre/pro)

vc69

1: I think you can select a "downmix" of the lossless codec from the PS3 to be output via 2ch analog no?

2: No idea but I would check it out. Seems you could also do a downmix, however I am not familier with the format or the player.

3: Definitely yes. Once again, you get a downmix of the lossless track.

4: Strangely, not as much as you might think. To me it's noticeable but not "night and day". I think it really is dependent upon how revealing your setup is.

5:IIRC, The 805 has a bit better amp section in it. 806 has more HDMI inputs and other incremental improvements. Auddessy room correction is awesome but it's a personal preference. Definitely useful if/when you go back to 5.1/7.1. I don't think you would be disappointed in the Onk's sound. It don't suck. I own a 606 and for HT I love it. Having said that, I am moving toward a dedicated 2ch rig for tunes. The fact that the 8xx has pre-outs is essential. I would be more than happy with the Onk if I could just add an amp for the L/R. My 606 is underpowered for my rig in 2ch.

vijayl

Considering your budget and pref towards 805 or 806. I recommend you look at Pioneer Elite SC-05 as well..

kcoc321

Interestingly enough, I just came across this review while browsing for something else
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/switchers/261-a-secrets-switcher-accessory-review.html
It talks about using a hi quality Zektor CVS4 (one with relays vs active switches) switch box to actually switch 5.1 audio using the analog inputs. This would allow ppl who have multiple HD sources to connect to the 5.1 analog inputs without having to keep switching cables. The base model, HDS4 is around $279 retail and the fancier one is $479 (Jan-08 pricing) They also mentioned a Zektor has a HDMI & 7.1 switch as well, the MAS7.1 for $599 (only one I have come across to have both)

That feature seems really nice, as we all only have one 5.1 or 7.1 analog audio inputs

Product link:
http://www.zektor.com/store/index.html

Just another option, instead of chasing the proverbial "latest tech" tail, so to speak,
and since you are really happy with your Receiver you have.
I will be looking up more on them later and post a thread this afternoon/ evening.






I like that they have it in silver...I like silver...

AsSiMiLaTeD

Isn't that pioneer a good bit more than the onkyo models?

vc69

You can get a refurb 706 with pre-outs and all the bells for $550. I'm trying hard NOT to pull the trigger. I want a tubed pre soooo bad.

AsSiMiLaTeD

I probably need the amp section in the 805 or 806. I thought those refurbs were down around 500 but they're still higher than that

wutadumsn23

I also would recommend the 805 or 806, but then again I may be a bit biased owning an 806 myself, lol. I love my 806 and have had it for about a year now with no complaints what so ever. The 805 does have a better amp section and the Burr Brown DAC's, wheras the 806 has a better video section and no Burr Brown DAC's as vc69 said earlier. I would go with the 806 and add an external amp to it and it will be hands down better than the 805, but of course at a much steeper price, lol. Honestly though even if you did get the 805 you would more than likely end up getting an external amp anyway, so why not buy the one with the superior video processing. The refurbs on ShopOnkyo are a bit pricey IMHO, and don't have much (if anything) in the way of warranties. You can get the 806 from Newegg for $599 with free shipping and a 2 year warranty for another $80. As for the question of whether or not the new HD sound formats make that much of a difference, I will offer a different opionion than vc69 on that one and say YES!! I have had it both ways and am glad I upgraded to the newer formats. I used to have to turn my volume up much higher before I bought my 806 to "enjoy" a movie and ever since I have had my PS3/806 combo, I can't get anywhere near the volume levels I used to have to run. The sound stage is much fuller and clearer than ever before, and even in my humble setup I have noticed a BIG change. I have heard of people running LSi setups with the 805/806 but IMHO it isn't a great idea unless you are very careful with the volume knob. As I'm sure you know the LSi's are a 4 Ohm speaker and the Onks run hot as it is, putting a full compliment of LSi's on it will only make it that much hotter and it wouldn't be long before you had a $600 paperweight. I'm not saying the 805/806 can't do it, just that it would be a better idea to let an external amp do that and use the 806 for it's video capabilities. Good luck and keep us updated.

-Jeff

chemical

vc69 wrote: »

You can get a refurb 706 with pre-outs and all the bells for $550. I'm trying hard NOT to pull the trigger. I want a tubed pre soooo bad.

new 706 @the egg.....$529.....free shipping....but theres a limit of 10 per customer....LoL

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882120107

AsSiMiLaTeD

I'm reading about the heat issues on the Onkyo now, looks like it may not be the way to go for me. The idea is to keep it simple, I don't want another amp in the mix.

I had concerns about the Onkyo being able to drive an all LSi setup. I realize that nothing in my price range is going to drive them at their full potential at high volumes, but again I'm in an apartment and just want something that would do a decent job, but given the heat issues with the Onk I have concerns about driving those speakers even at low levels.

I think I'll take a look at the HK models (the 254 and 354) because I know both of those can drive the LSi with no problems. I've heard about reliability issues with HK lately, but then I've been hearing that for the last 10 years and haven't had a problem yet.

Sami

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

1 - Right now I'm using the analog audio from the PS3 out to my receiver.
2 - Same scenario, same question as above for the Toshiba HD DVD player

I believe both output lossless in 2ch. I am fairly sure the Toshiba does.

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

4 - is there really THAT big of a difference between the regular and the lossless tracks?

If you're not convinced either way after this article, you're welcome to come by my house to do A/B testing. I have a Pioneer HDMI receiver with all the latest codecs, and my old HK. We can A/B them and also the Pioneer with analog vs. HD.

http://www.hemagazine.com/node/Dolby_TrueHD_DTS-MA_versus_Uncompressed_PCM

vc69

Sami wrote: »

If you're not convinced either way after this article, you're welcome to come by my house to do A/B testing. I have a Pioneer HDMI receiver with all the latest codecs, and my old HK. We can A/B them and also the Pioneer with analog vs. HD.

http://www.hemagazine.com/node/Dolby_TrueHD_DTS-MA_versus_Uncompressed_PCM

That article states what I basically said in a previous post. The difference between the Hi-Res codecs and the core tracks is audible, but slight. I agree. I can hear a difference, and certainly prefer the Hi-Res codec, but I think it is negligible on lower-end systems. You have to have a golden ear, or a golden system to really appreciate the difference. I like to think I do, but I'm getting old and YMMV.

Also, the Onks do run warm no doubt, but not so much that it is a problem unless it is enclosed in a tight space. I maintain that the Onkyo is a great value and sounds excellent for HT. Audyssey room correction will change your life when it comes to setting up a 5.1/7.1 system and I'm a believer. It is amazing and worth looking into. Whether you go with Onk or HK, good luck and I'm sure you will enjoy the upgrade to HDMI capabilities (if you don't suffer from an incompatibility, which I have not had with my Onk), improved HD codecs and the convenience of a one_cable_connection. It is a marked improvement. Imho.

Cheers!

wutadumsn23

Yeah, the Onks run hot but it is in their nature, lol. Didn't turn me away from the 806 and I'm glad I didn't shy away from it because of heat issues. Granted I am not running a full compliment of 4 Ohm speakers though, lol.

-Jeff

vc69

wutadumsn23 wrote: »

Granted I am not running a full compliment of 4 Ohm speakers though, lol.
-Jeff

Neither am I.

bklynNupe

wutadumsn23 wrote: »

I also would recommend the 805 or 806, but then again I may be a bit biased owning an 806 myself, lol. I love my 806 and have had it for about a year now with no complaints what so ever. The 805 does have a better amp section and the Burr Brown DAC's,...
-Jeff

I have the Onkyo 806 and I’ve been on the fence for quite a while in regards to replacing it.

As of now, I only use it for a processor given my external amps. In retrospect, I’m annoyed that I didn’t get the 805 with Burr Browns. I currently run all of my sound through my Music Hall DAC. I do not use the upscaling capabilities because my Directv HD receiver already has this feature also when I was using the HDMI it was causing about a 6 second delay whenever I switched back and forth between an HD and SD channel. I only use the HDMI from the Directv to my tv and for my DVD player. All of the audio connections are analog.

I have a Samsung HD DVD player with honestly about 4 hours on it, I just really don’t watch too many DVDs. I think I will eventually upgrade to one of those Oppo players I keep hearing everyone rave about.
Overall I’m ok with my overall picture quality.

My question is can I do better that the 806 in regards to sound quality for movies and mainly music given my current set up?
Btw, I’m just coming up on one year away from HTIB in November!



Onkyo 806
emotiva xpa-2 to fronts ( Rtia9’s)
emotiva xpa-3 for center ( csia6) and surrounds (FXi A6)
SVS PB-12-NSD sub
Pro-Ject III Xpressions
Belles Soloist 3 preamp
Bellari VP129
A couple of sidewinder IC’s, the rest are monoprice
Music Hall DAC 25.2 – Mullard E88CC/01
Samsung HD DVD
Mac Mini

Samsung LN46A650

wutadumsn23

I'm sure you could do better than the 806 for sound quality, but the question is do you NEED to. If you are happy with the 806's performance, then I would say stick with it. The new 807 has the BB DAC's but already having a dedicated DAC, I don't see why an upgrade would be needed. You have all your speakers running off external amps, so the 806 isn't realy doing much if you think about it. I may be way off in left field on this one, but I would stick with what you have and enjoy it. Just my $.02.

-Jeff